25 replies to this topic

[Shia Shahid]

I've been trying to figure out who Dhul-Qarnayn was, since he appears to have been a significant figure in history. The Sura "The cave" mantions him and how he trapped yajuj and majuj. But there have already been many discussions about yajuj and majuj, so I don't want to talk about them right now.

This topic is about the identity of Dhul-Qarnayn. I know many people claim he was Alexander the "great", but that claim just doesn't stand up to the facts. The Qur'an says that Dhul-Qarnayn first traveled west, then traveled east. This is exactly the opposite of Alexander, who first traveled east, then returned west after reaching India.

Furthermore, whereas Dhul-Qarnayn was a pious man, indeed, a prophet, Alexander was not even Muslim. Alexander was a mushrik who considered himself to be the "son" of the idol Zeus, and even forced conquered people to worship him. On top of that, he is reported to have killed hundreds of thousands of people and even to have committed zinaa and sodomy, as was common among pagan Greeks at the time.

Others have suggested that Dhul-Qarnayn could be Cyrus the Great, Darius the great, or some other Persian ruler (Xerxes is known to have destroyed quite a few idols), but that is also uncertain. Others say it was Zathustra, who got aid from an eastern Iranian King in spreading his faith, whose identity we do not fully know.

Brothers and sisters, who do you think Dhul Qarnayn was or may have been?

Edited by Shia Shahid, 09 September 2004 - 06:58 PM.

[kadhim]

My money is on Darius I. There are a few reasons I say this. If you look at the Bible, Darius was one of the leaders of Persia while the Israelites were in exile in Babylon. Darius is prophecied in Isaiah 42-43 as a friend of the Israelites. Darius met the prophet Daniel, and is recorded in the Bible in Daniel as having been a monotheist and friend of the Israelites and their religion. He was the Persian king who eventually released the Israelites from captivity, and paid for the rebuildinbg of the Temple in Jerusalem. Finally, under Daniel's reign, the two kingdoms of Persia and Media were united. In the book of Daniel, these kingdoms are referred to as Daniel's two "horns." Those who know Arabic know that Dhul Qarnain means the "one with two horns." I think it's a good bet.

Edited by kadhim, 08 September 2004 - 05:51 AM.

[Abdulhujjah]

It wasn't Alexander of Macedon, but I wonder who it was ?? I just call him Dhul Qarnain

Wassalaam

[tahasyed]

The Quran calls him Dhul Qarnain.
Neither the Quran, nor ahadith clarify further who he was.

So, I personally leave it at that.
He was a righteous servant of Allah, as the Quran testifies.

[sapphireshah]

Quote

My money is on Darius I. There are a few reasons I say this. If you look at the Bible, Darius was one of the leaders of Persia while the Israelites were in exile in Babylon. Darius is prophecied in Isaiah 42-43 as a friend of the Israelites. Darius met the prophet Daniel, and is recorded in the Bible in Daniel as having been a monotheist and friend of the Israelites and their religion. He was the Persian king who eventually released the Israelites from captivity, and paid for the rebuildinbg of the Temple in Jerusalem. Finally, under Daniel's reign, the two kingdoms of Persia and Media were united. In the book of Daniel, these kingdoms are referred to as Daniel's two "horns." Those who know Arabic know that Dhul Qarnain means the "one with two horns." I think it's a good bet

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THIS IS THE CORRECT ANSWER WITH THE PROOF-Well done!

Sapphire

[Shia Shahid]

The Darius theory makes sense. But didn't Cyrus unite Media and Persia first? I thought they were already united by Darius's time. I do know that Darius stopped a number of dangerous rebellions and punished a magician who pretended to be the king. In any case it makes much more sense than Alexander.

But in the end we know that Dhul-Qarnayn was Dhul-Qarnayn.

Edited by Shia Shahid, 08 September 2004 - 05:44 PM.

[Gypsy]

I think it was cyrus. He was a great king whose power and influence was far reached. And he came with some law to guide the people. There is a book about Cyrus the Great

It can never be Alexander because he was war monger and never preech message of peace. For him, it is just conqeuring, killing destroying

Edited by Zareen, 08 September 2004 - 08:06 PM.

[kadhim]

Zareen, on Sep 8 2004, 08:03 PM, said:

I think it was cyrus. He was a great king whose power and influence was far reached. And he came with some law to guide the people. There is a book about Cyrus the Great

It can never be Alexander because he was war monger and never preech message of peace. For him, it is just conqeuring, killing destroying

Let's not forget Alexander's penchant for young boys;) That kind of takes him away from Islam too.

[kadhim]

Zareen, on Sep 8 2004, 08:03 PM, said:

I think it was cyrus. He was a great king whose power and influence was far reached. And he came with some law to guide the people. There is a book about Cyrus the Great

Perhaps. Probably one of Cyrus or Darius; I'm not sure of the exact time when the two "horns" of Media and Persia were joined. The reason I lean toward Darius is his prominence in the Hebrew prophetic books of Isaiah and Daniel. If I recall correctly, there is a prophecy about a man with two horns, and it is later explained to be Darius with his two kingdoms. I don't remember the exact verses, but I read those books of the Bible this summer, and I remember remarking about these connections.

[akhbari]

I am not very much into history, but trying to put 2 things together. Quraan says that we have sent a book with every prophet.

[since all prophets were not sent with books - and rasoole e kareem says - that ya ali(as) you were with all prophets hidden and with me hidden as well as open, and imam ali(as) says I was with all prophets helping them but hidden and i am quran e natiq, i conclude that it was imam ali(as) to whome the word 'book' was referred] . recently i read in a qutba that imam ali(as) says that i am dhul qarnayn - so i presume it is imam ali(as) as darius, the pious. He had to come as somebody to help people.

This is only a thought, but i can vouch for all the ahadeeth and the ayat which i quote. Maybe the link to darius could be wrong.

akhbari

[Aflaltoon]

Darius? Jokers, persian fools!

A Prophet was sent to every people. The Greek civilisation only became great after Socrates, Plato, Aristotle and then Alexander.

People have changed histories of pious people. Much of what is known about such people is unknown. War monger? Go and study the future and the past.

Anyhow, Pious people can wage war on anyone. One must remember that his scholars were all believers of one god. As for the claim that he wanted people to worship him.

Same answer as Jesus(as) wanting people to accept him as God. Certain people came and used this as a power ploy. Get your head fixed.

As for all you who try and associate your nation and pride yourself upon it. I'll remind you of what Imam Ali(as) has said about Pakistan/India! We have the best ways and most sincerity in our love.

Regards

[Ateka_Bint_Al_Hussain]

One of the al-qaab (nick names) of Imam Ali was Thul Qarnayn....

[Shia Shahid]

Plato, Aristotle, etc?????

I've read some of the works of these philosophers, and they mention multiple "gods" so how can you be so sure they were monotheist?

Plus, every historian who has ever written anything praising Alexander also mentions that he associated himself with Greek idols. Most Muslims who praise Alexander don't even know his life story. And that's sad, because a good Muslim should seek knowledge, not hide from it.

Furthermore, I already described the logistical reasons why he could not have been Dhul-Qarnayn.

"Persian fools"? then what does that make you, a "Greek fool"? Or a Turkoman "fool" who claims to be descended from Greeks? Let me tell you this now, racism won't get you anywhere good on a Muslim forum.

Darius certainly fits the bill better than Alexander, as does Cyrus. The only problem with the Cyrus theory is that in his Universal Declaration of Human Rights (also called the Universal Charter), he seems to have praised the idol Marduk in Babylon, either that or somebody has tampered with the translation or some of the original writings. It is possible that the Declaration that survives today is not the original version.

Edited by Shia Shahid, 09 September 2004 - 05:48 PM.

[waiting]

Alexander was a warmong and according to credible sources a worshipper of celestial bodies.

The first to propose Cyrus in contemporary times was Maulana Abdulkalam Azad (an Indian) and it would seem likely but there is no inconclusive evidence...

[Shia Shahid]

You mean no 'conclusive' evidence.

Alexander was not only a warmonger but also a mass-murderer. He killed people in Greece, Asia Minor, Babylon, Iran, central Asia, India, and he had astrologers with him. He is also, according to Greek sources, said to have worshipped the idols of the Egyptians and Babylonians, and possibly other polytheistic cultures. This certainly does not sound like a prophet sent by Allah.

Furthermore, Alexander went east before he returned west, whereas Dhul-Qarnayn went west before he went east (this would make sense if he was Cyrus, Xerxes, and possibly Darius).

There is not much good reason to think that Alexander could have possibly been Dhul-Qarnayn. I tend to think that Dhul-Qarnayn was probably either Cyrus, Darius, or Xerxes. Zarathustra is another possibility, but then the "Dhul-Qarnayn" description may not fit him in any of its three meanings. But then we just don't know.

Another possibility is the semi-mythical Iranian hero Rostam, because he was also related to royalty, the two empires of "Dhul-Qarnayn" might mean Iran and Turan (a turkish state long ago), because they were at war during Rostam's time and he won several victories over the people of Turan.

Furthermore, Rostam is said to have worn a helmet with two horns on it, and he is often depicted wearing such a helmet, so that might also fit "Dhul-Qarnayn" (I know pictures of prophets are forbidden, but then again we don't know if Rostam was a prophet or not. In many newer copies of the Shahnameh, there are pictures of Rostam).

Edited by Shia Shahid, 09 September 2004 - 07:00 PM.

[kadhim]

Aflaltoon, on Sep 9 2004, 04:49 PM, said:

Darius? Jokers, persian fools!

A Prophet was sent to every people. The Greek civilisation only became great after Socrates, Plato, Aristotle and then Alexander.

People have changed histories of pious people. Much of what is known about such people is unknown. War monger? Go and study the future and the past.

Anyhow, Pious people can wage war on anyone. One must remember that his scholars were all believers of one god. As for the claim that he wanted people to worship him.

Same answer as Jesus(as) wanting people to accept him as God. Certain people came and used this as a power ploy. Get your head fixed.

As for all you who try and associate your nation and pride yourself upon it. I'll remind you of what Imam Ali(as) has said about Pakistan/India! We have the best ways and most sincerity in our love.

Regards

I'm Persian? Gee, that's news to me; I was under the impression I was Irish Canadian. Go figure.
Darius fits the description of Dhul Qarnayn best, far as I know. There are only so many pious emperors in history, and Darius is recorded as having been one of them. He ruled over the two "horns" of Persia and Media. Dhul Qarnayn means the one who had two horns. It makes a lot of sense. Check it out.

[Shia Shahid]

I'm also interested in Darius (and I am persian too). All we hear from Greek sources about Darius is horror stories about big bloody giants coming over from Iran and kidnapping or castrating Greeks... paranoia + racism. A bunch of xenophobic garbage. The real Darius was nothing like that.

The real Darius was by all reliable accounts a wise and fair-minded ruler who reunited Media and Persia after the revolt by the userper Magus Gaumata. Gaumata was a median fire-worshipper (not a zoroastrian - they don't worship fire) who claimed to be Bardiya, the dead brother of the last king, Kambiz (Cambyses). Kambiz had died in a military campaign in Africa (yes, he did conquer parts of Africa besides Egypt), and Gaumata took this opportunity to claim he was Bardiya and usurp the throne. (The real Bardiya was supposedly killed by Kambiz.)

Darius, then the governor of Media (but a Persian from the same family as Cyrus and Kambiz), couldn't take this nonsense anymore, and quickly overthrew the pretender Gaumata. Darius became the new king, but it took him over five years to re-unite the empire after Gaumata's trickery and several revolts had divided it.

Darius was governor of Media before he became king, and he was also of Persian royal heritage - on top of ruling both kingdoms, that could also be another interpretation of the name "Dhul-Qarnayn". But the Rostam theory also seems appealing, if you check that out, the similarities are very close.

Edited by Shia Shahid, 09 September 2004 - 08:06 PM.

[MAK]

[until when he reached the land of the rising of the sun (the east), he found it rising on a people to whom we had given no shelter from it]

--- [18:90]


[Then he followed (another) course]

--- [18:92]

[until when he reached a place between the two mountains, he found on that side of them a people who could hardly understand a word]


---[18:93]



from aya [18:90] I conclude that it wasn't his own people he found in where the sun rose. because it says, he found A PEOPLE.. not his own people... then I come to the conclusion, he was not persian...and then in [18:92] we see that he continued, and didn't stop there... he continued to the place where he met the people who could barely speak a word and there he captured Jaajuj and maajuj...


if thul-qarnain is Darius, then it condraticts the Quran I think, because it says HE FOUND A PEOPLE when he traveled back east.... it didn't say HE RETURNED TO HIS PEOPLE... HE FOUND THEM... which means, he doesn't originate from them, hence the word FOUND... and if this place in the east is supposed to be persia... then we can draw a conclusion, that Thul-qarnain was not persian, therefore, not Darius...


I hope this helped somewhat...

Edited by MAK, 10 September 2004 - 02:30 PM.

[Shia Shahid]

Sorry, but your conclusion has a bit of a problem in it.

The "place to the east where the sun rose" refers to Khorasan, in eastern Iran. True, Dhul-Qarnayn was not from there, but neither was Darius (Khorasan means "land of sunrise"). Darius was from the province of Fars. Khorasan is definitely east of Fars, so the Darius theory still makes sense.

Remember, "persian" is a very vague word, it is often used it describe all of Iran, whereas it originally meant only the "people of Fars". These were not the people of Khorasan. Even though there were Iranians in Khorasan, they were not of the same ethnicity as Darius (historical note - there used to be about 20 or more Iranian ethnic groups, now there is basically one main one that originated in Fars, and a bunch of small tribes that are almost forgotten)

So Dhul-Qarnayn could have still been Persian, because "persians" properly speaking, were not from the east of Iran. But nowadays all the words are confused, and people use "persian" to refer to any Iranian people. If you want to describe the people of ancient times, before the Iranian ethnic groups were assimilated, then Darius's people were of the clan of Pasargad (I hesitate to use the word "persian", it has become too confusing). Whereas in Khorasan the main groups were Bactrians, Parthians, and Arians (not the same as "Aryans", though they were all aryan ethnic groups). Even though they were all Iranian in ancestry and spoke indo-european languages, they often did not understand each other's tongue, for example the difference between the Scythians in the northeast and the Elamites in the southwest of Iran. Very different, even though they were descended from the same race of people.

So since Darius was not of the same tribe as the people he encountered in the east, he still could have been Dhul-Qarnayn.

Edited by Shia Shahid, 10 September 2004 - 05:42 PM.

[qjjl 14 masoom qjjl]

its korosh

[Shia Shahid]

Kurosh was the Iranian name of Cyrus. This first emperor of the Iranian Empire - whether you call him Cyrus or Kurosh, may have been Dhul-Qarnayn, but if you read his Universal Declaration of the Rights of Nations (the world's first written code of human rights), you might see some things that would contradict that theory.

I myself think that either Dariush (Darius), or his son Khashayar Shah (Xerxes) are just as likely to have been Dhul-Qarnayn as Kurosh was. Maybe more so.

[Jood]

Here is a small fact for you to hopefully shed some light on who Dhul-Qarnayn really was.

i have been researching him for the past 7 years now and this is the closest i got to figuring out the true identity: Dhul-Qarnayn was older than all the israelites, he was in the time of Nemrod, king of Ancient Babylon, when egypt was still a young country, he followed prophet abraham and befriended him, he is famously known to be Alexander the great for a simple reason, he was Alexander the Great, but not the greek from maccadonia, but the babylonian thousands of years earlier.

he was during the time which western europe was still partly frozen and people there lived in caves, during a time when chinese empire was still not existant.

he was not darius the great, for he came much later, definatly he was not Alexander of maccadonia, the story of Dhul-Qarnayn is so old that the jews of mecca dared The Prophet Mohammad to tell them his story, the story of Dhul Qarnayn is one of the proofs of Prophet mohammad's Prophecy and devinity.

also note that only after the distruction of Gog Magog did the human civilisation began to spread on the earth, after babylon, egypt, persia, china, greece, etiopia... and so on, a fact that before babylon there were no other older civilisations supports this, and this happened thousands of years before muses called for the sons of israel to leave egypt.

the prophecy of Gog Magog tells of an end of the world and the distruction of humanity by a vast army of cruel and monsterous tribe, all ancient texts suggests that, if it didn't happen before, and was locked away, why did the ancient text warn us about them?

hope i helped...

Al Salam Alaykom

[Ali zainal]

Aflaltoon, on Sep 9 2004, 05:49 PM, said:

Darius? Jokers, persian fools!

A Prophet was sent to every people. The Greek civilisation only became great after Socrates, Plato, Aristotle and then Alexander.

People have changed histories of pious people. Much of what is known about such people is unknown. War monger? Go and study the future and the past.

Anyhow, Pious people can wage war on anyone. One must remember that his scholars were all believers of one god. As for the claim that he wanted people to worship him.

Same answer as Jesus(as) wanting people to accept him as God. Certain people came and used this as a power ploy. Get your head fixed.

As for all you who try and associate your nation and pride yourself upon it. I'll remind you of what Imam Ali(as) has said about Pakistan/India! We have the best ways and most sincerity in our love.

Regards

i am with you my brother, but will better if as muslim we only use good words, so although you already got knowledge, don't tell "fools" to other, will be nice if we sharing our knowledge to other

yes i already got knowledge, sure from our only one GOD, about Socrates

for all who don't know why Socrates die ?

he got death punishment only just caused he taught few young boys and others great people in ancient Athens to worship only to one GOD

after that his student, Aristoklen always said he only worship to only one GOD, then Aristoklen student, Aristoteles did the same, then his student, Alexander

if in past ago Socrates didn't know, but he searching the truth, then Allah gave him knowledge, then choose him, then he worship only to one GOD, always do good thing, like and love knowledge

for all of us must be remember, GOD sent all meesnger to all nations

sure i already know, if India got prophets too

all knowledge is from Allah, the ALMIGHTY

Allah give knowledge to all who choosen, then to spread it to other and Allah know who can't receive the truth

what is the lesson ?

the main and important than all of you become hate others, is try to follow what Dhul Qarnayn did, follow him, act like him, and that shown you love GOD.

[YaAli(as)]

Allamah Tabatabai has said the Dhul Qarnayn was Cyrus the Great

[Fida wal muqawamah]

Cyrus...I read it in Qasas ul Quran by ayatollah makarim shirazi...