46 replies to this topic

[perplexed]

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Q. Who gave birth to Qadiyanies?

A. Ramadan Double Eclipse - Sign of Imam Mahdi

[Checkthisout]

Qadiyanis = Sunnis NOT shias

[inuit]

Firstly your answer is not complete

(1) Why did not anybody else considered the issue of fabrication of this hadith before a claimant (Mirza) born about the narrators (Amar bin Shamir Jaabir) of the hadith. They just wrote this hadith in their books while remembering Imam Mahdi(AS).

(2) Amar bin Shamir a shia; is this the only reason to reject this hadith? If yes then why other Muhadatheen took from other shias Narrators. To find more about this topic please read the following topic:
Rafidi Shi'ah narrators in Sahih al-Bukhari
http://www.al-islam.org/nutshell/

(3) What Shia Muhadatheen said about Amar bin Shamir; your objection would be valid if you bring a proof from shia Muhadatheen that they said that Amar Bin Shamir was a fabricator. Otherwise this objection would be considered prejudice opinion about this narrator because he was a Shia.

The claim is still there, because this fabricated hadith is written in Sunni source including Mujaddad Aleph Sani; not the Shia source.

As far as this hadith is concerned this is not only mentioned in Dar-e-Qutni but it is written in  the collections of Hadees of Sunni Ullema some of them are mentioned below.


(1) Fatawa Hadisiya by Allama Sheikh Ahmad Shahabuddin Ibn Hijrul Haismi. page 31
(2) Ikmal-ud-din page 368
(3) Hejajul Kirama by Nawab Siddeeq Hassan Khan page 344
(4) Maktoobaat-e-Imam Rabbani Mujaddid Alf-e-Sani volume 2, page 132
(5) Qiyamat Nama Farsi by Hazrat Shah Rafeeuddin Muhaddis of Delhi
(6) Aqaedul Islam by Maulana Abdul Haq Muhaddis of Delhi
(7) Iqtirabus Saa’t by Nawab Sideeq Hassan Khan page 106, 107
(8) Aqaaide Islaam, page 182, 183 Maulana Abdul Haq, Muhaddeth of Delhi
(9) Ahwalul Akhirat by Hafiz Muhammad of Lakhoke. page 23


The above lists also includes a writing of the MUJADDAD ALEPH SANI

Further more Qadiyani also claim that this Hadees is strengthened by the fact that the Holy Quran mentions eclipses as important Signs of the approach of Resurrection. The Holy Quran says:

"And the moon is eclipsed. And the sun and the moon are brought together." (Al-Qiyamah 75:9-10)

There is no concept of this kind of eclipse in Shia source as written in Sunni sources. Read the Shia Hadith & Sunni Hadith and compare the dates as i wrote in the first post of this thread. You will find the difference there.

I repeat my question:

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Inuit Posted:
Infact this is the question

Why most of the Sunni Ullema didn’t say its Fabricated about 1400 years, before the claim of Mirza Qadiyani.

Sunni Ullema were continually using this Hadith in their books in the chapter of Signs of Imam Mahdi(AS)? And they were waiting for this sign anxiously as a clear sign of Imam Mahdi(AS) from Allah.

All of a sudden when Mirza claimed to be a Massiah and Mahdi  and propagated this Hadith as his proof as he is genuine; Sunni Ullema denied this hadith while denying Mirza’s claim. In reply Mirza said this sign completed accordingly “Mahdi is here with the signs of double eclipse; so this is the proof that this hadith is Sahahi (correct)”.

Answer in view of the list of Sunni Ullema as I wrote above who mentioned this hadith in their books and they keep repeating.

This is a serious matter; I need your help to solve this issue. Even if you write the text in regular font I will read it. Thanks, Waslaam.

Edited by inuit, 28 July 2004 - 05:30 PM.

[perplexed]

Dar-e-Qutni (rahimullah) after stating the hadith pointed out the fact that it Shamir who narrated from Jabir were both unrealiable and thus this narration cannot become the basis to establish any proof.

Do you find Shamir or Jabir amongst the narrators of the Sahih's ?
When you come across Shamir or Jabir in Bukhari then let me know.


Regardless of who have mentioned the sign in their book it still does not give authenticity to it when Dar-e-Qutni is the origin. The books of Rijaal rejected the narrators as liars, fabricators etc.

Scholars who have afterwards included it in their books regarding the signs does not make it authentic, they all quote DAR-E-QUTNI.

These authors / scholars are not aware of the narrators of the hadith and did not check the source Dar-e-Qutni itself. If they did they would see the comment made after the hadith. Dar-e-Qutni is not a kitaab that is taught to the scholars in general.


Nabi  pbuh did not attach importance to the eclipses.

The kuffar did, Nabi  pbuh rejected their superstitions

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 2, Book 18, Number 153:
Narrated Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba:

"The sun eclipsed in the life-time of Allah's Apostle on the day when (his son) Ibrahim died. So the people said that the sun had eclipsed because of the death of Ibrahim. Allah's Apostle said, "The sun and the moon do not eclipse because of the death or life (i.e. birth) of some-one. When you see the eclipse pray and invoke Allah."

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What Shia Muhadatheen said about Amar bin Shamir; your objection would be valid if you bring a proof from shia Muhadatheen that they said that Amar Bin Shamir was a fabricator. Otherwise this objection would be considered prejudice opinion about this narrator because he was a Shia.

lol ..
i don't want to know
we don't quote hadith from kafi to back our stances
u quoted Dar-e-Qutni .. i pointed out it's fabrication

im not in the least concerned about the shia version of it

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This is a serious matter; I need your help to solve this issue.

Dar-e-Qutni (rahimullah) solved it !

Ramadan Double Eclipse - Sign of Imam Mahdi ?

Narrations not admissible as proof to substantiate any claim.

Edited by perplexed, 28 July 2004 - 06:22 PM.

[inuit]

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i don't want to know
we don't quote hadith from kafi to back our stances
u quoted Dar-e-Qutni .. i pointed out it's fabrication

im not in the least concerned about the shia version of it

This is fundamental rule in debates, one has to prove his arguments from his opponent resources. If you are not able to do so; you would not be considered on holding position.

Quote

Dar-e-Qutni (rahimullah) solved it !
Ramadan Double Eclipse - Sign of Imam Mahdi ?
Narrations not admissible as proof to substantiate any claim.

Why didn’t Ahle Sunnah tell this to Mirza at that time (the time period between his claim and 1311 AH). This is about 5 years when he was continually claiming as Mahdi in Sunni world. At that time all Sunni Ullema were demanding enthusiastically him to show Lunar and Solar eclipse at that time why did not they know about the authority of this hadith. Why they were hiding this fact at that time. *Fighting with an empty gun.*

[perplexed]

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This is fundamental rule in debates, one has to prove his arguments from his opponent resources. If you are not able to do so; you would not be considered on holding position.

lol @ fundamental rules
who cares about opponents viewpoint
do i look like a cyber mujtahid 2 u ?

the hadith according to the sunni muhadditheen / rijaal is a fabrication.

period.

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Why didn’t Ahle Sunnah tell this to Mirza ?

the clown of qadian .. who cares about him

how du know they didn't tell him ?

maybe if they had google back then .. cud have cached it for benefit of the 21st century!

he's not exactly gonna giv up cos sum1 sed the hadith is a fabrication !

he was mentally challenged ..  didn't stop him claiming his other fantasies either did it ?

.. went on to claim he was Isa ibn Maryam    and Hadrat Musa   and Nabi  pbuh all in one.


"I am the Maseeh of the time and I am Moses on whom God conferred His speech.  I am Muhammad and Ahmad, the selected one."
    [ Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 15, P. 134 ]

like how clowns wear many different colors .. so did he ..

.. could never make his mind up who or what he was !

[inuit]

perplexed, on Jul 29 2004, 12:29 AM, said:

Quote

This is fundamental rule in debates, one has to prove his arguments from his opponent resources. If you are not able to do so; you would not be considered on holding position.

lol @ fundamental rules
who cares about opponents viewpoint
do i look like a cyber mujtahid 2 u ?

the hadith according to the sunni muhadditheen / rijaal is a fabrication.

period.

Quote

Why didn’t Ahle Sunnah tell this to Mirza ?

the clown of qadian .. who cares about him

how du know they didn't tell him ?

maybe if they had google back then .. cud have cached it for benefit of the 21st century!

he's not exactly gonna giv up cos sum1 sed the hadith is a fabrication !

he was mentally challenged ..  didn't stop him claiming his other fantasies either did it ?

.. went on to claim he was Isa ibn Maryam  (as)  and Hadrat Musa  (as) and Nabi  pbuh all in one.


"I am the Maseeh of the time and I am Moses on whom God conferred His speech.  I am Muhammad and Ahmad, the selected one."
    [ Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 15, P. 134 ]

like how clowns wear many different colors .. so did he ..

.. could never make his mind up who or what he was !

you are making fun of things.

who cares about your viewpoint

This hadith is in Sunni books and Sunni mullahs were writing this hadith for centuries and provided the base to claim Mirza as a false prophet and Mahdi and Qadiyanit is a cult of Sunni/Wahabi/Deobandi Sect.
Period.

[perplexed]

Quote

Q. Ramadan Double Eclipse - Sign of Imam Mahdi?

A. Amar bin Shamir: A Shia from Kufa. This Amar used to fabricate narrations for the Shias

Quote

Q. Who gave birth to Qadiyanies Imam Mahdi?

A. Sign of Ramadan Double Eclipse

One last thing .. it's against ethics to quote the entire post directly above your post!

[inuit]

Sufi, on Jul 29 2004, 04:48 PM, said:

read this

Imam Abu-Hanifah  writes:

"Among the liars that I met, no one was bigger liar than Jabir Ja'fi."

Dar Qutani, Abu-Hanifah & Mirza Qadiyani all were from your school of thought; All were the followers of your Abu Bakar, Umar and Usman and they were from the party of Mawiyah. We dont care about their sayings. If you think that you are in debate bring a proof from your opponents resource; otherwise your entry is simply useless.

[inuit]

Sufi, on Jul 30 2004, 07:17 AM, said:

Thats pointless then. U think the Shias would support Sunnis in any degree its non sense. All the great Scholars that Sunnis had the Shias just claim that they were hidden Shias instead of admiting the truth.

Stay in the topic: that is:
Ramadan Double Eclipse - Sign of Imam Mahdi, Who gave birth to Qadiyanies?

So far its is proved that the hadith in which a particular type of lunar and solar eclipse mentioned, helped Mirza to claim as a Mehdi to misguide people was from Sunni source and written in lots of Sunni books. Shia hadith is different and does not fulfil the requirement. Means “Mirza ki daal Shia Hadith say nahin gulti”. He cooked his religion based on Sunni resources.

Edited by inuit, 30 July 2004 - 10:30 AM.

[perplexed]

inuit said:

"Mirza ki daal Shia Hadith say nahin gulti"

Dar-e-Qutni (rahimullah) se tho sirf itna hi saabit huwa hai, hathaa ke unno ne bizaathay khud kaha hai, ke ye daal shia rawi (amar aur jabir) se gulti hai

har firqa jo jhoot par hai wohi sunni hadith ko seenay se lagatha hai

kiyo ? kiya unn ke pass koi apna saboot nehi hai ?

[inuit]

perplexed, on Jul 30 2004, 11:06 AM, said:

inuit said:

"Mirza ki daal Shia Hadith say nahin gulti"

Dar-e-Qutni (rahimullah) se tho sirf itna hi saabit huwa hai, hathaa ke unno ne bizaathay khud kaha hai, ke ye daal shia rawi (amar aur jabir) se gulti hai

har firqa jo jhoot par hai wohi sunni hadith ko seenay se lagatha hai

kiyo ? kiya unn ke pass koi apna saboot nehi hai ?

(1)
This is what i am asking; If Dar Qutni said that this is a fabricated hadith by shia narrators then why other Sunni Ullema like Sayuti and Alaph Sani wrote this hadith in their books.

What I believe that Dar Qutni himself fabricated this hadith and put blame on Shia narrators and said that they were fabricators. If they were fabricator then why did he take that hadith from them. Dar Qutni and his followers have to prove from their opponents’ resources that they were fabricator.

(2)
2ndly If you think that Shia believe in the hadith which Dar Qutni wrote you have to show it from Shia books that they quoted his hadith with the same chains of narrators.

Shias dont belief this version of hadith which is written in Sahahi Dar Qutni (Shia iss hadith ko seenay say nahin lagatay) You will find a correct version of this hadith narrated by correct chains with different dates. I have already mentioned the correct version of this hadith in my first post of this thread.

[inuit]

Sufi, on Jul 30 2004, 02:59 PM, said:

by the way the Qadianis have the same definition as u guys for Califah. So thanks to u guys they are able to start their poltical movement. They are currently at their 5th Imam.  And that hadith is not even from a saying of the Prophet(pbuh). What can u really proove from one fabricated hadith.

If you are in comparison. Then Qadiyaniat is much closer to your Sufism and non-political concept of Khalafat in Sufism. Similarly All of their 5 Khulafa are non-political leaders from which one is sitting in London under the shadow of Qeen’s (kingdom) like your Sufi Khulafa were sitting under the shadow of many polical kings and sultans of their time.

2nd Shia concept of divine status of Khalifa o Imam is much different than youryou’re your Qadiyani fallows’ concept. They have elected their Khalifa like your first khalifa. Shias don’t elected their Khalifa. Right.

3rdly Qadiayni Khalifa is not from Quraish and descendents of Prophet Muhammad and Bibi Fatima.

Conclusion: Qadiyanis took their concept from Sunni hadith books and their books.

[inuit]

Stay in the topic: that is:
Ramadan Double Eclipse - Sign of Imam Mahdi, Who gave birth to Qadiyanies?

So far its is proved that the hadith in which a particular type of lunar and solar eclipse mentioned, helped Mirza to claim as a Mehdi to misguide people was from Sunni source and written in lots of Sunni books. Shia hadith is different and does not fulfil the requirement. Means “Mirza ki daal Shia Hadith say nahin gulti”. He cooked his religion based on Sunni resources.

[inuit]

any comment from Qadiyanies on this issue..

[drugie]

salaam,
i know this is little bit off topic, but i wolud like u to know that there was a sign
that 70 momins will be killed at the back of kufa and also a pios man would die amonst them.
this has already happend last year in najaf because najaf is situated behind kufa
they would have been the same city if it was'nt for the river (i think).
with ayatollah baqir sard atleast 80 peaple were said to have died in najaf in the bomb blast

p.s i am new, be kind to me please