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[ultra-muslim]

Proving the Teacher - Student relationship

This article will seek to expose the false claim of Ansar that Abu Hanifa was NOT a student of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq . Their leading champion Abu Sulaiman asserts:

Ansar.org states:
"The claim that Abu Hanifah was taught by Ja'far Al-Sadiq is a lie that is known to anyone who read something about the life of Abu Hanifah. What is known and famous is that Abu Hanifah was taught by some of the grandest scholars at his time, most notably Isma'il bin Hammad Abu Sulayman Al-Kufi who was one of the most distinguished teachers of Abu Hanifah. In addition, Abu Hanifah was taught by Ibraheem bin Muhammad Al-Muntashir, Ibraheem bin Zayd Al-Nakh'ei, Ayyub Al-Sikhtiyani, Al-Harith Al-Hamadani, Rabee'a Al-Madani, Salim bin Abdullah bin 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased at him, Sa'eed bin Masrooq the son of Sufyan Al-Thawry, Sulayman Al-Hilaly, A'asim bin Kaleeb and many others".  


This is the perfect example of Abu Sulaiman's resentment towards Ahl'ul bayt . He is willing to deny an established historical fact so as to lower the status of the Ahl'ul bayt in the eyes of actual Sunnis. Fortunately actual Sunnis have caught on to the efforts of such individuals and we present the lengthy text from modern day Hanafi scholar Mufti Ghulam Rasul who has refuted lies such as this in his excellent biography of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq "Subeh Sadiq". We are quoting with a link of the full pages from pages 186 - 191:
Mufti Ghulam Rasul's Subeh Sadiq

Imam Abu Hanifa is one of the distinguished students of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq , as has been confirmed by Ibn Hajar al Makki in his Sawaiq al Muhriqa, Allamah Shiblinji in his Nur al Absar, Abdul Haleem Jindi in his Mohqaq, Abu Zohra in his various writings, and other Ulema. Imam Abu Hanifa had previously studied under Imam Baqir and then subsequently Abu Hanifa extended the link of knowledge with Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq . In this regard, Abdul Haleem Jindi writes that Abu Hanifa stated that if he 'hadn't spent two years of his life with Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq , he would have been dead'. (Al-Imam Ja'far As-Sadiq, page 162). Sunni research scholar Abu Zohra states that these words of Imam Abu Hanifa's are widely known namely 'if these two years had not been available to me due to my good fortune, Numan (Abu Hanifa) would have been dead. (Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq, page 83). Imam Abu Hanifa had also remarked 'I have never seen a greater scholar of fiqh than Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (as)'.

It is therefore proven that Imam Abu Hanifa was Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (as)'s student for a complete two years, and that he remained with him in Madina during that time. Notwithstanding that, whenever there happened to be any other meeting between the two, Imam Abu Hanifa took full academic advantage of it, he had immense respect for Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq.

Sometimes when questioned on a matter by Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq , Imam Abu Hanifa would intentionally remain silent on account of the immense reverence he had for the Imam. This has been acknowledged by Abdul Haleem Jindi and Ibn Ammar Hanbaliand. They both record an incident when Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq asked Imam Abu Hanifa the penalty for a Hajji in a state of Ihram, if he (the hajji) were to break the rubaya (front four teeth of a deer). Imam Abu Hanifa replied, "O son of the Prophet pbuh, I have no idea." Upon which Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq replied, "A deer does not have any rubaya". (Shadharat al Dhahab, page 220 Jeem Alif) , (Al-Imam Ja'far As-Sadiq, page 162)….

Question: Ibn Taymeeya wrote that Abu Hanifa was not a student of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq but a contemporary hence not a student.

Answer: This is an incorrect assertion, Abu Hanifa was Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (as)'s student, as has been vouched for by Hafidh Ibn Hajar Asqlani, Ibn Ammar Hanbali, Ibn Hajar Makki, Allamah Shiblinji, research scholar Abu Zohra and many others.

Furthermore, Allamah Shibli Numani refuted Ibn Taymeeya's claim stating:

"Abu Hanifa sat for a long time at Imam Baqir's feet and acquired from him much valuable knowledge of Fiqh and Hadith not available anywhere else. Shia's and Sunni's are agreed that Abu Hanifa derived much of his learning from Baqir. He learned a great deal from the imam's son, Ja'far al-Sadiq also, which fact is generally mentioned in the history books. Ibn Taymeeya, however, denies this on the ground that Abu Hanifa and Ja'far al-Sadiq were contemporaries and equals, which ruled out the probability of the former being the latter's pupil. But I consider this sheer imprudence and lack of comprehension on Ibn Taymeeya's part. For all his greatness as an original thinker and master of fiqh, Abu Hanifa could not compare in learning with Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq. The Ahl'ul bayt were the fountainhead of Fiqh and Hadith and, in fact, all religious learning. "The master of the house knows best what is in it", to quote a well-known Arabic saying". (Imam Abu Hanifa, by Allamah Shibli Numani page 40).
Our note, this book has also been rendered in to English and we attch the English translation of the text.

Allamah Shibli Numani refuted Ibn Taymeeya's claim

From this it has been proven that Imam Abu Hanifa was Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (as)'s student, and also that in the realm of knowledge and guidance, there is no one like the People of the House PBUT, even if one is mujtahid or learned man….

Thus Ibn Taymeeya's assertion has been proven to be false and baseless. The fact is that Imam Abu Hanifa was the student of Imam Ja'far as al-Sadiq. Abu Zohra writes that Imam Abu Hanifa obtained the vast bulk of traditions from Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq and would consult with him regularly. He also attributed traditions to Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq that can be found in Imam Abu Yusuf's book Al Aa'saar (183 A.H.), and in Imam Muhammad bin Hasan Shaybani's book Al Aa'saar (189 A.H.). In both these books, the traditions that Imam Abu Hanifa attributes to Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq are great in number.

Abu Zohra writes that 'the truth is that religious bigotry makes a man blind and deaf. In the same way that the evil statements of slanderers were unsuccessful in tarnishing the image of his ancestor Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib , no one could hope to reduce the immense stature of Imam Ja'far as al-Sadiq, whether they are liberal or puritanical. This case is also similar to those who had sought to malign Jesus son of Mary, when one group of people denied his Prophethood and another group was bent upon elevating him. (Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq, page 84).

We therefore conclude that those who have sought to belittle the image of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq , such as Ibn Taymeeya et al. have not obtained even the slightest success. It has also been proven that Imam Abu Hanifa was a student of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq and frequently obtained traditions from him. Allamah Muhammad Khizri writes that Abu Hanifa and most of the Imams of Medina obtained traditions from Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq , but Imam Bukhari did not obtain a single tradition from him".

We also present with a link, the "Musnad Imam Azam" rendered in to Urdu by Maulana Sa'd Hasan Sahib. The text is a collection of traditions that have been narrated and compiled by Imam Abu Hanifa. On page 23 of the preface of the Musnad, Maulana Abdur Rashid Numani, whilst giving an overview of the life of Imam Abu Hanifa states:

"Imam Abu Hanifa stayed for a long time in the pure (city of) Madina and continuously attended the circles of Imam Baqir ®. In jurisprudence (fiqh) and traditions (hadith) he learnt many things during his time with Imam Baqir ® which he didn't know before. Imam Baqir ® passed away on 7 Dhu'l Hijja 114 AH.

After Imam Baqir's death, Imam Abu Hanifa had the greatest respect for his son Imam Ja'far Sadiq ®. He would attend Imam Ja'far's classes quite often to acquire knowledge. Imam Abu Hanifa used to hold the opinion about the Ahl al-Bayt that hadith and fiqh, indeed all religious sciences, have surfaced from their Household".
Musnad Imam Azam

Pakistani Sunni Scholar Mohammad Hameedullah Khan in his book "The Schools of Islamic Jurisprudence - A comparative study, states in his brief biography of Imam Abu Hanifa on page 61:

"He got an opportunity to meet Anas, a famous companion of Prophet Muhammed , at the age of 12 or 13 years and attended the lectures of Imam Jafar as Sadiq. Regarding his place in history of Fiqh, Abu Hanifa said:

I have not seen a jurist of high rank like Imam Jafar as Sadiq [taken from Tabayeen page 69 by Shah Moinuddin Ahmed Nadvi]"
The Schools of Islamic Jurisprudence, Page 61

Allamah Sharawi's admission that Imam Abu Hanifa was Imam Ja'far (as)'s student

Imam of Ahl'ul Sunnah Allamah Shaykh Sharawi Azhari in his famous Egyptian Risala Al Ahraam ul Sunnah page 103 periodical number 32932 wrote:

"The Imam of the Shi'a Imamiya, Hadhrath Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq was the teacher of Imam 'Abu Hanifa. These are the Imamia Ja'fari who as we previously explained adhere to a pure religion. It is with regards to them that our Shaykh Shaltoot issued a fatwa deeming it permissible to follow this madhab because this is a legitimate Islamic madhab, that acts as a source of guidance for its adherents. In Egypt we have incorporated certain principles of Shi'a fiqh on divorce and inheritance into our Law".

The beliefs of Imam Abu Hanifa

Abu Sulaiman also commented:

Ansar.org states:
"Even if Ja'far Al-Sadiq taught Abu Hanifah, then the matter will not be more than that Abu Hanifah took knowledge from Al-Saddiq and it does not mean that Abu Hanifah became a Jaffari. I am saying this as a supposition, otherwise it is confirmed that Abu Hanifah used to give religious verdicts at the time of Abi Jaffar, the father of Ja'far Al-Sadiq!"


We are also not saying this and it is absurd for Abu Sulaiman to arrive at this conclusion. If I study fiqh under a teacher with different beliefs to myself it does NOT automatically mean I have converted to that belief system! Nonetheless what is of interest is that Imam of Ahl'ul Sunnah al Muhaddith Shah Abdul Aziz Dehlavi had in fact referred to Abu Hanifa as a Shi'a. He writes in Tuhfa Ithna Ashariyya page 25:

"Imam Abu Hanifa [r] was counted amongst the Shi'a of Kufa and he considered Zaid bin 'Ali bin Husayn to be on the path of truth"

During that era Islamic sciences were being spread through the empire and students were benefiting from the teachings of scholars with differing views, far and wide. Students took the opportunity to gain knowledge from Ulema, in the same way Abu Hanifa learnt from Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq .

Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq also taught Imam Malik

Abu Sulaiman stated:

Ansar.org states:
"Al-Shafi'i read "Al-Muwti" on Malik and the book has only 9 hadeeths that are narrated by Ja'far Al-Saddiq. And no one said that Malik was one of the students of Abu Hanifah, but they said that Malik was contemporary with Abu Hanifah".


Yet again Abu Sulaiman fails to cite any sources as evidences, just his own bigoted Nasibi views. Like Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Malik also benefited from the knowledge of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq :

Abu Nu'aym Isfahani (d. 430 Hijri) wrote in Hilayat al-Awliya page 199 Volume 3 that:

"Imam Malik bin Anas was a student of Imam Ja'far . He attained knowledge from him and attended his gatherings".

[New Sunni]

Ultra-muslim
Brother,


Nothing can be further from the truth, these people may have met up, living in the same city but, Imam Abu Hanifa, never attended any session to acquire knowledge in the sense as propogated by shia scholars, it is on the record that even shia dynasty Abbaside, never asked or consulted there own Imams of the time, instead they approached Imam Abu Hanifa, details are as follows

Assalaamu Alaykum
Regarding Imam Abu Hanifah's allegedly having studied under Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq, please be informed as follows:

Imam Abu Hanifah was the pupil and intellectual successor of his mentor, Hammad ibn Abi Sulayman, who was the successor to Ibrahim an-Nakha'i, who was the successor to his uncle 'Alqamah ibn Qays an-Nakha'i, who was the successor to Sayyiduna 'Abdullah ibn Mas'ud (radhiallaahu anhu), who was sent as a teacher to the city Kufah by Amir al-Mu'minin Sayyiduna 'Umar ibn al-Khattab. This chain of intellectual descent is known to anyone knowledgeable of the legislative history of Islam.
In fact, Imam Abu Hanifah held his discourses at the very same place in the Masjid of Kufah where Ibn Mas'ud (radhiallaahu anhu) used to teach. This teaching circle was passed down generation after generation, by the men whose names you have just read: From Ibn Mas'ud to 'Alqamah; from 'Alqamah to Ibrahim; from Ibrahim to Hammad; and ultimately from Hammad to Abu Hanifah, after whom it was occupied by three of his students successively: firstly Zufar ibn Hudhayl; then Abu Yusuf; and then Muhammad ibn al-Hasan.
Now, regarding the link between Abu Hanifah and Ja'far as-Sadiq, you need to keep in mind the following:

FIRSTLY
Imam Abu Hanifah was born in the year 80 AH
Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq was born in the year 83 AH
In other words, not only were they contemporaries; but Abu Hanifah was 3 years older than Ja'far as-Sadiq.

SECONDLY
Imam Abu Hanifah's education took place in Kufah, in the school originally established by Ibn Mas'ud. Like other 'ulama of his time, he used to go to Hijaz for Hajj, and passing through Madinah, he used to benefit from the knowledge of eminent men of learning, such as the father of Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq, namely Imam Muhammad al-Baqir. Many of the ahaadith he narrates from Imam Muhammad al-Baqir are documented in the books of his pupils Abu Yusuf and Muhammad ibn al-Hasan.

THIRDLY
It is true that Imam Abu Hanifah does narrate some ahadith from Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq. But that was according to the habit of the 'ulama to narrate from even their contemporaries. If that alone is to be taken as evidence that Imam Abu Hanifah "studied" under Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq, then we will be bound to conclude that Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq similarly learnt from people other than his father, such as Ibn Shihab az-Zuhri, 'Ata ibn Abi Rabah, 'Urwah ibn Zubayr and Muhammad ibn al-Munkadir. Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq has narrated hadith from all of these men, and even others besides them. (Tahdhib al-Kamal vol. 5 p. 75)

FOURTHLY
In the year 132 the Abbasids came to power, having ousted the Umayyads. Abu Hanifah was then 52 years of age. The Abbasid khalifah Abu Ja'far al-Mansur wanted Abu Hanifah as his Chief Justice, which post he refused. In order to escape the vengeance of the khalifah, Abu Hanifah betook himself to the Hijaz where he spent the next 2 years. It is in terms of this sojourn in the Hijaz that he is reported to have said, "Were it not for the 2 years, Nu'man (i.e. Abu Hanifah) would have been destroyed". Creative Shi'i imaginations would have us believe that what he actually meant thereby was that it was during this period that he gained his knowledge at the feet of Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq. The absurdity of this can be seen from the fact that by that time he was already so famous as a man of learning, that he was sought by the khalifah as the Chief Justice. Apart from that, he was, as already shown, over 50 years of age.

FIFTHLY
There is a famous story in circulation about Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq posing certain questions to Imam Abu Hanifah regarding the use of Qiyas (analogy). You should be informed that the story appears in this form in Shi'i books such as al-Kafi. In the Sunni literature it appears with significant changes.
First of all, the discussion is not between Abu Hanifah and Ja'far as-Sadiq, but between Abu Hanifah and Muhammad al-Baqir. Secondly, the story goes as follows:

Al-Baqir asks Abu Hanifah if he is the one who is changing the Deen of his (al-Baqir's) grandfather (Rasulullah sallallahu `alayhi wasallam) through the use of Qiyas. Abu Hanifah denies that he is changing the Deen. In order to demonstrate the falsehood of the rumours, he then goes on his knees in front of Imam al-Baqir and uses the comparison between, (1) the share of a man and a woman in the spoils of war; (2) fasting and prayer with regard to a woman in menstruation having to pay in the former and not the latter; (3) urine and semen in respect of the method of purification for either one.
After this lucid demonstration of his usage of Qiyas only where there is no textual evidence, and strictly adhering to the authority of text where it exists, Imam Muhammad al-Baqir stands up and kisses Imam Abu Hanifah on his forehead. (Manaqib Abi Hanifah by al-Kardari, p. 99)
It was only later that the Shi'ah would adapt the story to suit their own particular needs.

[poiuyt]

And what did the student do-

Run off and create his own religion  

[Abdulhujjah]

New Sunni, on Feb 23 2004, 04:15 PM, said:

FIRSTLY
Imam Abu Hanifah was born in the year 80 AH
Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq was born in the year 83 AH
In other words, not only were they contemporaries; but Abu Hanifah was 3 years older than Ja'far as-Sadiq.

  



This is a stupid argument, so if I'm older than you you can't teach me, c'mon.



Salaama

[New Sunni]

Abdulhujjah, on Feb 23 2004, 02:18 AM, said:

New Sunni, on Feb 23 2004, 04:15 PM, said:

FIRSTLY
Imam Abu Hanifah was born in the year 80 AH
Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq was born in the year 83 AH
In other words, not only were they contemporaries; but Abu Hanifah was 3 years older than Ja'far as-Sadiq.

This is a stupid argument, so if I'm older than you you can't teach me, c'mon.



Salaama

  


Brother I know by now that you have unique sense of looking at evidence, as was the case with Khalid . You should try to improve your debating abilities, by first acquiring knowledge on a topic you want to debate. If I wanted to make such ignorant statement as you do, there would no space on this forum enough to hold my argument.

[Abbas]

Salam Alaikum

Quote

Brother I know by now that you have unique sense of looking at evidence, as was the case with Khalid . You should try to improve your debating abilities, by first acquiring knowledge on a topic you want to debate. If I wanted to make such ignorant statement as you do, there would no space on this forum enough to hold my argument.

Look whos talking.

Maybe you should also learn a thing or two about the subject of discussion, before you say something like this:

Quote

..it is on the record that even shia dynasty Abbaside, never asked or consulted there own Imams of the time, instead they approached Imam Abu Hanifa...

How ridiculous a statement is that!!

And it was a valid point br. Abulhujjah made - they were the same age, doesnt mean one cant teach the other. These are just arguments empty of any substance and any seeing person can see it.

I also want to comment on the end of your pasted articled.

It is the Sunnis who changed the story of the talk between the Imam (A) and Abu Hanifa.
Kulaini reported this in al-Kafi in the 4th century AH, and it had been recorded in the Usool before that, while the writer of Manaqib Abi Hanifa who then changed the story and was referred to in your article died in the 7th century AH or the 6th century, depending on which Kardari it was.
A difference of at least 200yrs or so !!
So which version of the story stands more ground?

Moreover, all Sunni ulama know and accept that Abu Hanifa had "extraordinary abilities in qiyas". They proudly say that he was the first to develop qiyas into the study of fiqh, that he was a "pioneer of qiyas". this backs up Kulaini version of the story.

Edited by Abbas786, 23 February 2004 - 04:24 AM.

[New Sunni]

Quote

Quote

..it is on the record that even shia dynasty Abbaside, never asked or consulted there own Imams of the time, instead they approached Imam Abu Hanifa...

How ridiculous a statement is that!!

Brother abbas786,

Is it not shia claim that shia imams are the rulers in their time, at the time of abbaside(shia dynasty) were in power can you please tell us how many imams were made head of the state and then how imams were consulted in state matters and how did the Abbaside(shia dynasty) followed the instruction of their imams. Please quote example with credible references. Then we see how ridiculous this statement is, that shia dynasty Abbaside approached Imam Abu Hanifa or not.

[Abbas]

Quote

Is it not shia claim that shia imams are the rulers in their time, at the time of abbaside(shia dynasty) were in power can you please tell us how many imams were made head of the state and then how imams were consulted in state matters and how did the Abbaside(shia dynasty) followed the instruction of their imams. Please quote example with credible references. Then we see how ridiculous this statement is, that shia dynasty Abbaside approached Imam Abu Hanifa or not.

Firstly, it is the Shia claim that the Shia Imams are the spiritual rulers of their time, be they with temporal power or not.

Secondly, I was not rejecting the fact that the Abbasid aproached the sunni ulama and not the Shia Imams.
The ridiculousness of your statement that I was referring to was that you keep calling the Abbasids shias!! They were far from being Shias, they did just as much zulm on the Shias and the Imams as the Umayyads, and you are the first Sunni who has the audacity to say the Abbasids are Shia!!

This is what I meant when you tell a brother who made a valid point and you admonished him to know about the subject area of discussion, while you absolutely have no clue!!!

Finally, I am not discussing with you anything until you learn something about Sunnism.

[salmany]

Sallam

Ibn Abidin relates in his al Durr al mukhtar that Imam Abu Hanifa said:

If it were not for two years, I would have perished.

Ibn Abidin comments:

For two years he accompanied Sayyidina Jafar Sadiq and he acquired the spiritual knowledge that made him a gnostic in the Way... Abu Ali Daqqaq (Imam Qushayri's shaykh) received the path from Abul Qasim Nasirabadi, who received it from al Shibli, who received it from Sari Al Saqati who received it from Maruf Al Karkhi, who received it from Dawud at Tai, who received the knowledge, both the external and the internal, from the Imam Abi Hanifa.

Ibn Abidin in his Hashiyat radd al-muhtar Ala Al Durr Al Mukhtar 1:43.

[NoorFatima]

Quote

If it were not for two years, I would have perished.

Even so brother, who in their right minds would deny the greatness of Imam Ja'far Al-Sadiq, even though he learned from the Imam, that doesn’t mean he got "Ijza'a" from him, and this is exactly what UM is preaching here without any sound proof or evidence. Besides, this claims was countered by me in the Muharram forum, some no Sunni replied to yet. So please, let’s not spread false information.

Edited by NoorFatima, 23 February 2004 - 01:25 PM.

[Jurayj]

The Maliki shaykh Ibn Qunfudh al-Qusantini (d. 810) wrote:

It was the practice of the Pious Predecessors and the Imams of the past that whenever the Prophet was mentioned in their presence they were overwhelmed by reverence, humbleness, stillness, and dignity. Ja`far ibn Muhammad ibn `Ali ibn al-Husayn ibn `Ali ibn Abi Talib would turn pale whenever he heard the Prophet mentioned. Imam Malik would not mention a hadith except in a state of ritual purity. `Abd al-Rahman ibn al-Qasim ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr al-Siddiq would turn red and stammer whenever he heard the Prophet mentioned. As for `Amir ibn `Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr ibn al-`Awamm al-Asadi (one of the early Sufis), he would weep until his eyes had no tears left in them. When any hadiths were mentioned in their presence they would lower their voices. Malik said: "The Prophet’s sacredness (hurma) is in death is as his sacredness was in life"

Allahumma Salye 3laa Muhammadin Wa 3alye Muhammad,

[New Sunni]

Abbas786, on Feb 23 2004, 06:44 AM, said:

Quote

Is it not shia claim that shia imams are the rulers in their time, at the time of abbaside(shia dynasty) were in power can you please tell us how many imams were made head of the state and then how imams were consulted in state matters and how did the Abbaside(shia dynasty) followed the instruction of their imams. Please quote example with credible references. Then we see how ridiculous this statement is, that shia dynasty Abbaside approached Imam Abu Hanifa or not.

Firstly, it is the Shia claim that the Shia Imams are the spiritual rulers of their time, be they with temporal power or not.

Secondly, I was not rejecting the fact that the Abbasid aproached the sunni ulama and not the Shia Imams.
The ridiculousness of your statement that I was referring to was that you keep calling the Abbasids shias!! They were far from being Shias, they did just as much zulm on the Shias and the Imams as the Umayyads, and you are the first Sunni who has the audacity to say the Abbasids are Shia!!

This is what I meant when you tell a brother who made a valid point and you admonished him to know about the subject area of discussion, while you absolutely have no clue!!!

Finally, I am not discussing with you anything until you learn something about Sunnism.

  


brother,

It is amazing how you try to rewrite the history, let for the sake of argument we agree that Abbaside were not shia (which is not true) then what were Safavides, were they shia ? if they were shia then did they appoint Imam fo the time as the head of the state or appointed them as their advisers in matter of state, remember that Khilafa is the inherant right of imam of the time, as it was of Ali , Hassan and then the struggle of Hussain for the same purpose, why did the shia dynasties not appoint Imam of the time as the head of the states?

[Socrates]

Quote

let for the sake of argument we agree that Abbaside were not shia (which is not true)

Bring your proof about Abbasids being Shia. That is the most ludicrous thing I ever heard in my life.

[Abdulhujjah]

New Sunni, on Feb 23 2004, 05:08 PM, said:

Abdulhujjah, on Feb 23 2004, 02:18 AM, said:

New Sunni, on Feb 23 2004, 04:15 PM, said:

FIRSTLY
Imam Abu Hanifah was born in the year 80 AH
Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq was born in the year 83 AH
In other words, not only were they contemporaries; but Abu Hanifah was 3 years older than Ja'far as-Sadiq.

This is a stupid argument, so if I'm older than you you can't teach me, c'mon.



Salaama

Brother I know by now that you have unique sense of looking at evidence, as was the case with Khalid . You should try to improve your debating abilities, by first acquiring knowledge on a topic you want to debate. If I wanted to make such ignorant statement as you do, there would no space on this forum enough to hold my argument.

  



So my statement is ignorant, what was ignorant about it... O shaikh al kabeer?


Salaama

[smmz]

yes the Abbasids did rely on the shias and the disaffected populations of Arabia that were discontent with the Ummayads to gain power such as the mawali. However they aboandoned thier ties with the shias as shown by the slaying of Shia Alids in Mecca in 786. They did this because the shias wanted to restore the Caliphate to the Ahlul Bayt yet they wanted it for themselves. Thier clear hatred of the Shias is shown by thier abuse of the shia imams. If u read into the lives of any of the imams under Abbasid rule u will see that they continuosly abused the imams and were also responsible for some of their martydom.  As for the Safavid Dynasty, it didnt come bout till the 15th century. The imam of the time(Imam mehdi) was as he still is in occultation during this period!!! brother I dont understand what u mean by it being necessary for the shia dynasties to appoint the imam as the head of state?

[mobeen]

DID IMAAM ABU HANIFA STUDY FROM IMAAM JA'FAR AS-SAADIQ ??

Q: Imaam Abu Hanifa studied under Imaam Muhammad al-Baqir and Imam Jafar as-Sadiq . I would like to know if he received Ijaza from them. If you would please state the texts in which this can be found in it would be must appreciated.
Salaams

Answer:
Respected Brother-in-Islam
Assalaamu Alaykum
Regarding Imam Abu Hanifah's allegedly having studied under Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq, please be informed as follows:
Imam Abu Hanifah was the pupil and intellectual successor of his mentor, Hammad ibn Abi Sulayman, who was the successor to Ibrahim an-Nakha'i, who was the successor to his uncle 'Alqamah ibn Qays an-Nakha'i, who was the successor to Sayyiduna 'Abdullah ibn Mas'ud (radhiallaahu anhu), who was sent as a teacher to the city Kufah by Amir al-Mu'minin Sayyiduna 'Umar ibn al-Khattab. This chain of intellectual descent is known to anyone knowledgeable of the legislative history of Islam.
In fact, Imam Abu Hanifah held his discourses at the very same place in the Masjid of Kufah where Ibn Mas'ud (radhiallaahu anhu) used to teach. This teaching circle was passed down generation after generation, by the men whose names you have just read: From Ibn Mas'ud to 'Alqamah; from 'Alqamah to Ibrahim; from Ibrahim to Hammad; and ultimately from Hammad to Abu Hanifah, after whom it was occupied by three of his students successively: firstly Zufar ibn Hudhayl; then Abu Yusuf; and then Muhammad ibn al-Hasan.
Now, regarding the link between Abu Hanifah and Ja'far as-Sadiq, you need to keep in mind the following:

FIRSTLY
Imam Abu Hanifah was born in the year 80 AH
Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq was born in the year 83 AH
In other words, not only were they contemporaries; but Abu Hanifah was 3 years older than Ja'far as-Sadiq.

SECONDLY
Imam Abu Hanifah's education took place in Kufah, in the school originally established by Ibn Mas'ud. Like other 'ulama of his time, he used to go to Hijaz for Hajj, and passing through Madinah, he used to benefit from the knowledge of eminent men of learning, such as the father of Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq, namely Imam Muhammad al-Baqir. Many of the ahaadith he narrates from Imam Muhammad al-Baqir are documented in the books of his pupils Abu Yusuf and Muhammad ibn al-Hasan.

THIRDLY
It is true that Imam Abu Hanifah does narrate some ahadith from Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq. But that was according to the habit of the 'ulama to narrate from even their contemporaries. If that alone is to be taken as evidence that Imam Abu Hanifah "studied" under Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq, then we will be bound to conclude that Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq similarly learnt from people other than his father, such as Ibn Shihab az-Zuhri, 'Ata ibn Abi Rabah, 'Urwah ibn Zubayr and Muhammad ibn al-Munkadir. Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq has narrated hadith from all of these men, and even others besides them. (Tahdhib al-Kamal vol. 5 p. 75)

FOURTHLY
In the year 132 the Abbasids came to power, having ousted the Umayyads. Abu Hanifah was then 52 years of age. The Abbasid khalifah Abu Ja'far al-Mansur wanted Abu Hanifah as his Chief Justice, which post he refused. In order to escape the vengeance of the khalifah, Abu Hanifah betook himself to the Hijaz where he spent the next 2 years. It is in terms of this sojourn in the Hijaz that he is reported to have said, "Were it not for the 2 years, Nu'man (i.e. Abu Hanifah) would have been destroyed". Creative Shi'i imaginations would have us believe that what he actually meant thereby was that it was during this period that he gained his knowledge at the feet of Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq. The absurdity of this can be seen from the fact that by that time he was already so famous as a man of learning, that he was sought by the khalifah as the Chief Justice. Apart from that, he was, as already shown, over 50 years of age.

FIFTHLY
There is a famous story in circulation about Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq posing certain questions to Imam Abu Hanifah regarding the use of Qiyas (analogy). You should be informed that the story appears in this form in Shi'i books such as al-Kafi. In the Sunni literature it appears with significant changes.
First of all, the discussion is not between Abu Hanifah and Ja'far as-Sadiq, but between Abu Hanifah and Muhammad al-Baqir.

Secondly, the story goes as follows:
Al-Baqir asks Abu Hanifah if he is the one who is changing the Deen of his (al-Baqir's) grandfather (Rasulullah sallallahu `alayhi wasallam) through the use of Qiyas. Abu Hanifah denies that he is changing the Deen. In order to demonstrate the falsehood of the rumours, he then goes on his knees in front of Imam al-Baqir and uses the comparison between, (1) the share of a man and a woman in the spoils of war; (2) fasting and prayer with regard to a woman in menstruation having to pay in the former and not the latter; (3) urine and semen in respect of the method of purification for either one.
After this lucid demonstration of his usage of Qiyas only where there is no textual evidence, and strictly adhering to the authority of text where it exists, Imam Muhammad al-Baqir stands up and kisses Imam Abu Hanifah on his forehead. (Manaqib Abi Hanifah by al-Kardari, p. 99)
It was only later that the Shi'ah would adapt the story to suit their own particular needs.
Shaykh Taha Karaan
Darul Uloom al-Arabiyya al-Islaamiyyah, Western Cape (SA)

[alibaba1]

there is no point in this debate........it is well known (take it from a sunni) that Abu Hanifah..did infact learn from Imam Jafar.......and it is well known that all sunnis respect and revere Imam Jafar as a great scholar and pious man.....i really don't understand where the debate is?

[Morg]

tell me who needs this proof. we hanafis BELIEVE THAT IMAM ABU NOMAN ABU HANIFA was a student of Imam jaafar saadiq

[Morg]

not only that, its a chain when it comes to fiqas.

imam noman abu hanifa good his knowledge from

hazrat ata
hazrat imam jaadar saadiq
mohammad ibn ali sulayman
imam ikrama

and 93 badri soldiers and other talba tabiyeen.
it is also said and proven that Thabit, the father of imam abu hanifa met hazrat ali where he made a dua for him to be given a son. and that was imam abu hanifa
imam jaafar teached too imam abu hanifa it was necesarry couse imam jaafar saadiq were from the household, and the hadiths and sunnah from there were also necesarry. so imam abu hanifa got his knowledge from both the sahabas, talba tabiyeen and the household of prophet mohammad (saww) .

note
hazrat imam jaafar saadiq and imam noman abu hanifa were both poisoned in the prison during the time of the abbasid khalif Al-Mansur.

[Morg]

the chain goes like this

hazrat imam jaafar saadiq
hazrat imam noman abu hanifa
hazrat imam malik
hazrat imam shafei
hazrat imam ahmad hanbal

just like a sufi order or if you look at the shia imami line, the knowledge continues. this way these imams also saved the information and knowledge. so during imam ahmad hanbals time, imam bukhari and imam muslim wrote down these narrations and hadiths.

[Zafaryab]

Think this "imam Hanifa learned from Imam Ja3far(as)" reasoning was started because it will lead to the fact that we should follow the teacher and not the student... as I think brother Logic pointed out rather harshly

Wassalaam (Peace be upon you)

[Morg]

^^ according to the ithna asharis, imam jaafar is the 6th imam. the imami line hadnt fulfilled. yet the words of imam musa kazim had to come, same to ali rida , hassan askari, ali hadi and imam mahdi. the shia doctrine was not fulfilled. islam were only ONE at that time. the khalifates of ummaya didnt support it they harrased the followers of sunnah which were performed by those who supported the ahle bait and the household of prophet mohammad. DONT NECESARRY HAS TO BE SHIAS. at that time, muslims simply were muslims, couse the leaders were kaafirs. except some men as muawiya II who was the son of yazid, but he werent as his father, same goes to umar II who has huge reputaion within the muslim. but when the shia sunni doctrine came. it was after the death of imam jaafar saadiq and imam noman abu hanifa. after theyr death. islam got separated in this way

some abbasid claiphs took the side of the heretic sect mutazila. they were against the sunnis.

the mutazila caliphs came after caliph haroon rashid.

heres the list

Al-mamun
Al-Mustasim
Al-Wathik

then the sunni won the track, and the first caliph who joined sunni after the imams were caliph Al-Mutawwakill

this gave sunnism strong ground. whole ithna asharis were weakened by the mutazila caliphas murdering on the imams.

this separated the later imams from both the ahle sunnah and the ithna ashari faiths so they were apart from some juridistic discuttions. made some changes and the sects arose...

[Zafaryab]

brother Morg

Contrary to what you have posted.. I have read that the shia3 orginated in the battle of Jamal where Hadrat Ali(as)'s side was called shia3-ne-Ali [followers/party of Ali(as)].. it is inherent in our belief system that we are to follow the path that the Ahlul bait and the Imams that came after left for us. I also read that after the Prophet (saw) passed away, there were two seperate sects that were created, one was the salafies (earlier muslims), and the other was the people who followed Hadrat Ali(as). The other four sects (Hanafies, Sha3fies, Malikies and Hanbalies) came 60 or so years after the passing away of the Prophet(saw). Now, if all this is correct, then what you said about people who followed the Ahlul bait during the time of Imam Jafir(as) were indeed shia3-ne-Ali.. because thats what it means.. follower of Ali(as). Look brother, you have the closest ideology to shi3ism.. however.. if you take sahih bukhari as your source of hadith.. then you have been provided with the corrupt version of the Ahlul Bait (except for the hadith of mubahila and iyah tatheer). There were clashes between the Ahlul bait and some of the sahabas very often and I think YOU should do justice to what is correct.

Wassalaam (Peace be upon you)

[Morg]

^^ brother think of this

shiat ali. means party of ali, at that time, the imamate of 12 wasnt complete. it was even so that when the first abbasid claiph came to power. many shiat alis claimed he were the mahdi. so if you see the doctrine werent complete. the 12th imami line werent so famous or accepted by the people.

then we say shiat ali , is the party of ali, only as a political party. the salafay or the sahabas you mention had close contact with the household. in that case. the supporters of the caliphates of ummaya and abbasids were not any of them, they were neither early salafys or shiat alis.

thereby shiat ali and salafy are two political groups. which developed AFTER the coming of the imams in both shia and sunni islam.

[Zafaryab]

Morg, on May 8 2005, 04:33 PM, said:

thereby shiat ali and salafy are two political groups. which developed AFTER the coming of the imams in both shia and sunni islam.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Political maybe.. but was politics so different from religion back then??... I think those shia3 that were there BEFORE the 'line' of the imams was "complete" would still have believed in the 12 imams... just like the shia3 today do even though the line remains 'incomplete'.

Wassalaam (Peace be upon you)