40 replies to this topic

[Ibn al-Hassan]

repenter, on 24 May 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:

Well said. Thing is few,,very few scholars disagree with Wilayat Faghi. The only disagreement is on the execution of it, namely the mutlagh part. If you see a scholar not being active in politics or social issues, it doesn't mean he doesn't agree with it, i means either he has dedicated his time to something else or that he has realized that he might not be good at it and has decided to not involve himself for the greater good, and there is no shame in that.

The only issue I have with this approach is that it doesn't pay sufficent attention to what our Imams [as] actually said in regards to politics and power. See, we have this tendency to try and make it seem as if the scholars don't make mistakes or if we see something contradictory to what the Imams [as] are saying in the ahadith, we take recourse to the idea of "well, they're more knowledge than us." So, can we ever really criticize some of the rulings and theories that are prevalent among contemporary scholars or do we just have to accept their interpretation? We're quick to condemn people who don't agree with the majority of scholars (or let's say even all of them), yet do we even exert a fraction of that effort towards our Infallible Imams [as]? After all, is the hallmark of this school of thought about following fallibles or infallibles? I'm not saying that we should not refer to scholars that may have a better understanding of the texts and tradition. In fact, the main job of a scholar is help facilitate the knowledge of the leaders to others. But still, at the end of the day our attempt should be to follow those worthy of being followed and who have been chosen as our Guides. Even if our interpretation happens to be incorrect, at least we can say we made the effort. Sure, every one is allowed to chose their own path, but for me, I don't see this issue come up in the words and actions of the Ahl al-Bayt [as]. Actually, when they do speak of these matters, they discourage their companions from getting involved in political issues. This doesn't mean that we should have no care in what goes on in the political arena, rather our approach must be more nuanced whereby we don't transfrom tashayyu' into a distinct political ideology and force to be reckoned it.

[Wizdom]

http://www.yaqoobi.d...slam/wilaya.htm

[AhlulBayt_313]

Wizdom, on 24 May 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

http://www.yaqoobi.d...slam/wilaya.htm

Thank you for posting the Thesis of Wilayah by Marja Ayatollah Sheikh Mohammad Musa Al-Yaqoobi (I will read it)

[repenter]

Ali-Reza, on 24 May 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

Well I was born in Iran, lived in Iran, went to school in Iran till I was almost 18, was fed all sort of "logic" and "reasoning" for WF in our schools and Islamic classes and TV and everywhere yet I still don't buy it!

Why? Because (with all due respect) it leads to injustice and authoritarianism which is whats going on in Iran. And if you don't see the Iranian people running around opposing WF, it is mainly because they fear their safety and they are also afraid that their country becomes another Afghanistan or Syria so they are just putting up with it.

There is no power right now to remove Iranian leader even if he was a bad leader. There is a Islamic council made of his people and friends.

Never in history of Shia Islam have we ever had anything like WF. Not even our Imams such as Imam Jafar sadigh   wanted the position. WF completly made up and it is not in our earlier books and traditions. It is an innovation.

I don't oppose a religious state where there is no absolute power and everyone is below the Islamic law not above it.

That everyone is either elected or appointed and is constantly in check so he will do his job right. But a man like WF holding sharia in his hand acting as an Imam, I am sorry I respectfully can't accept.

Well bro there are certain things here that needs to be addressed and non of these are personal as I am not pointing to your experience per se.

Well I was born in Iran, lived in Iran, went to school in Iran till I was almost 18, was fed all sort of "logic" and "reasoning" for WF in our schools and Islamic classes and TV and everywhere yet I still don't buy it!

There were also many people living under the rule of the Prophet(pbuh) who were also fed all sort of "logic" and "reasoning" for Islam in schools, at home, in masjid, yet like you don't buy WF, they didn't buy Islam. Does that mean the Prophet was wrong? Or Islam? In other words, for one person not understanding a issue, does not invalidate the issue itself in all cases.

Why? Because (with all due respect) it leads to injustice and authoritarianism which is whats going on in Iran. And if you don't see the Iranian people running around opposing WF, it is mainly because they fear their safety and they are also afraid that their country becomes another Afghanistan or Syria so they are just putting up with it.

Well i have also lived in Iran and went to school there and my experience is opposite of yours. I saw plenty of people opposing WF and talk trash openly in the university. There is however a difference in causing fitnah.

There is no power right now to remove Iranian leader even if he was a bad leader. There is a Islamic council made of his people and friends.

Well, again you have to try to explain more your claim, because you make a claim and you don't elaborate on it. The council which you are reffering to is elected by the people and its called assembly of experts. So are you saying that the Iranian people choose friends of Ayatollah Khameneis friends? If so then you are saying that Iranian people are for Ayatollah Khamenei and contradicting yourself. If you are saying that the elections are rigged then you have to prove it, it's easy to say an election is rigged whenever one does not agree with the outcome.

Even if we just look at the Assembly, its content is 86 Mujtahids and Ayatollahs, so you are basically saying that 86 of the biggest mujtahids of Iran are all for his injustice and authoritarianism? That is a pretty bold claim of you.

If you want to stick to facts, the assembly also has people opposing Ayatollah Khamenei. And the Assembly can remove him when they so please. I can't be bothered to list you the names and point out how they oppose him, you can read Farsi i presume this is a responsibility of your own to find out.

I don't oppose a religious state where there is no absolute power and everyone is below the Islamic law not above it.

These two statements are opposing. You want everyone to follow Islamic law, meaning being below it, but you don't want anyone with the absolute power to execute it. Be it a person or a group of people.

That everyone is either elected or appointed and is constantly in check so he will do his job right. But a man like WF holding sharia in his hand acting as an Imam, I am sorry I respectfully can't accept.

You are kind of twisting the subject, but you are entitled to your opinion and as long as it's respectful i can't really see any faults in it.

Wasalam

[Pedram]

AhlulBayt_313, on 22 May 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:

Assalamu Alikoum, I am currently reading this and if anyone is familiar with this topic, I would appreciate your feedback. http://www.iranchamb...ayat_faqeeh.pdf I linked the topic here so you can see what I'm referring to. I just started getting into this topic, so if you have any insight, disagreements, or if you agree with this topic, I am open to all feedback. I would just like to get a better perspective about it. Some of you, whether you agree or disagree with it, may be more familiar with it, and could shed some light for me. Thank you and Wasalam.

Salaam,

my i recommend you read this article:

http://imamshirazi.c...t-ul-faqih.html

for me, this is very true, and makes perfect sense.

[AhlulBayt_313]

Pedram, on 25 May 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Salaam,

my i recommend you read this article:

http://imamshirazi.c...t-ul-faqih.html

for me, this is very true, and makes perfect sense.

This is a quote (in blue) from the article you sent me, which if we look at the first line here, it's interesting (take note I said interesting, not wrong) how some people don't agree with it.  Futhermore, it came from the Shirazi office, so it's more surprising to me; after having numerous conversations with Shirazi followers, that they don't agree with it.  Correct me if I'm wrong here, but this is from his website and he sums it up here; however, does this mean he agrees with it?  No clue about that, but it's written as if he agrees with it, and it puzzles me that some people I've spoken to (who have him as their Marja) don't approve of WF. Obviously, not pertaining to all followers, just the recent conversations I've had with a few of them.  Just in case someone wants to put words into my mouth, I respectfully had to clarify that one   Here is the quote from his website you sent:  TO SUM UP, the meaning of Wilayat-ul-Faqih is that those who assume the office of leading the country and the Ummah according to the laws of Islam are fully qualified Fuqaha / Maraje' who are the representatives of the Imam (al-Mahdi) . So in an Islamic country of say one billion population, if there are one hundred Marje' al-Taqleed, then they are the highest authority of the nation, and they manage the affairs of the country in war, peace, and any other aspect of government on the basis of majority vote amongst them. Note: I underlined part of that last sentence.

Is the Shirazi office/website just explaining what the WF is, or do they actually support it?

Oh, and thank you for posting the article Pedram, that was very kind of you. Wasalam

Edited by AhlulBayt_313, Today, 10:28 AM.

[Pedram]

AhlulBayt_313, on 25 May 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

This is a quote (in blue) from the article you sent me, which if we look at the first line here, it's interesting how some people don't agree with it.  Futhermore, it came from the Shirazi office, so it's more surprising to me; after having numerous conversations with Shirazi followers, that they don't agree with it.  Correct me if I'm wrong here, but this is from his website and he sums it up here; however, does this mean he agrees with it?  No clue about that, but it's written as if he agrees with it, and it puzzles me that some people I've spoken to (who have him as their Marja) don't approve of WF. Obviously, not pertaining to all followers, just the recent conversations I've had with a few of them.  Just in case someone wants to put words into my mouth, I respectfully had to clarify that one   Here is the quote from his website you sent:  TO SUM UP, the meaning of Wilayat-ul-Faqih is that those who assume the office of leading the country and the Ummah according to the laws of Islam are fully qualified Fuqaha / Maraje' who are the representatives of the Imam (al-Mahdi) . So in an Islamic country of say one billion population, if there are one hundred Marje' al-Taqleed, then they are the highest authority of the nation, and they manage the affairs of the country in war, peace, and any other aspect of government on the basis of majority vote amongst them. Note: I underlined part of that last sentence.

Is the Shirazi office/website just explaining what the WF is, or do they actually support it?

Oh, and thank you for posting the article Pedram, that was very kind of you. Wasalam

Salaam,
yes they're explaining what WF is...

now what is important to know is that a lot of marja are against the "current" WF system, but they are not against the "concept" of WF......

this means, a lot of marjas DO believe in the "concept" of WF, but they do not view Khamenei as WF as they do not agree with this system.

and as you can see, they do say:

As for your last question that who is the Waley-e-Faqih or Waley-e-Amr, officially we the Muslims do not have one, since at the present time the if we were to have a Waley-ul-Faqih or Waley-ul-Amr that would be the "Shura al-Fuqaha al-Maraje' " or the Leadership Council of the Maraje' Fuqaha.

[AhlulBayt_313]

Pedram, on 25 May 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

Salaam,
yes they're explaining what WF is...

now what is important to know is that a lot of marja are against the "current" WF system, but they are not against the "concept" of WF......

this means, a lot of marjas DO believe in the "concept" of WF, but they do not view Khamenei as WF as they do not agree with this system.

and as you can see, they do say:

As for your last question that who is the Waley-e-Faqih or Waley-e-Amr, officially we the Muslims do not have one, since at the present time the if we were to have a Waley-ul-Faqih or Waley-ul-Amr that would be the "Shura al-Fuqaha al-Maraje' " or the Leadership Council of the Maraje' Fuqaha.

And where do they state why they don't approve of him in this position? I see, so they approve of the concept, just not the current Marja in the position of it. And why do they not approve of him?  Can you find documentation on that? I'd like to read the reasons behind their disapproval. I have heard many stories, so I kind of have an idea, but hearsay doesn't sit well with me. I'd like to hear it from his mouth or in writing, hence me not approving of hearsay Interesting.

Edited by AhlulBayt_313, Today, 10:42 AM.

[Ali-Reza]

اللهم صل على محمد وال محمد




Please see my response in blue  among your quotes.

repenter, on 24 May 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Well bro there are certain things here that needs to be addressed and non of these are personal as I am not pointing to your experience per se.

Well I was born in Iran, lived in Iran, went to school in Iran till I was almost 18, was fed all sort of "logic" and "reasoning" for WF in our schools and Islamic classes and TV and everywhere yet I still don't buy it!

There were also many people living under the rule of the Prophet(pbuh) who were also fed all sort of "logic" and "reasoning" for Islam in schools, at home, in masjid, yet like you don't buy WF, they didn't buy Islam. Does that mean the Prophet was wrong? Or Islam? In other words, for one person not understanding a issue, does not invalidate the issue itself in all cases.

Now you are comparing IRI to prophet and Ahlulbayt?  Massooms vs. Non Masoons. Classic argument that proves my point! Which is you and those who support WF are making little prophets and Imams.

Why? Because (with all due respect) it leads to injustice and authoritarianism which is whats going on in Iran. And if you don't see the Iranian people running around opposing WF, it is mainly because they fear their safety and they are also afraid that their country becomes another Afghanistan or Syria so they are just putting up with it.

Well i have also lived in Iran and went to school there and my experience is opposite of yours. I saw plenty of people opposing WF and talk trash openly in the university. There is however a difference in causing fitnah.

Talking is cheap and IRI knows it. The moment you organize against them they either call you "mortad" or an agent of America or Zionism then you are in all sort of trouble! Whatever happened to Montazeri and his supporters?  Shirazis?  Green movement?  khatamis? karoobis?... etc. I can keep naming them! But evidence speaks lounder than words IRI is pretty unjust because it is made from an awfully  unjust ideology; WF.

Yes if you are on side of IRI then you are biased in their favor then things look fine to you. But nobles are those who look at things unbiased because they are on side of justice.  Iran is pretty unjust; toward the minorities, even toward the Shias.

Please answer my Question; Let's say you live in Tehran, but you want to go to local Masjid for Friday prayer instead of spending half of your day going to Tehran university to pray behind an IRI appointed scholar. Do you think you are allowed to do that?



There is no power right now to remove Iranian leader even if he was a bad leader. There is a Islamic council made of his people and friends.

Well, again you have to try to explain more your claim, because you make a claim and you don't elaborate on it. The council which you are reffering to is elected by the people and its called assembly of experts. So are you saying that the Iranian people choose friends of Ayatollah Khameneis friends? If so then you are saying that Iranian people are for Ayatollah Khamenei and contradicting yourself. If you are saying that the elections are rigged then you have to prove it, it's easy to say an election is rigged whenever one does not agree with the outcome.

Even if we just look at the Assembly, its content is 86 Mujtahids and Ayatollahs, so you are basically saying that 86 of the biggest mujtahids of Iran are all for his injustice and authoritarianism? That is a pretty bold claim of you.

If you want to stick to facts, the assembly also has people opposing Ayatollah Khamenei. And the Assembly can remove him when they so please. I can't be bothered to list you the names and point out how they oppose him, you can read Farsi i presume this is a responsibility of your own to find out.

Yes I admit there was some level of inaccuracies in my statement in terms of whom are in Islamic shura of Iran but I was speaking of experience and what I had observed;
When Khomeni died, there were more qualified mutahids than Khameni!  In fact he wasn't even an Ayatullah at the time let alone a mujtahid\marja.

They didn't even wait until complete burial funeral of Khoemini before they elected a new WF overlooking many other scholars. I don't know about you but I still remember the conflict between montazeri and his supporters vs. Khameni and his supporters. At the end, Khamenei won and put montazeri under house arrest and many of his supporters got prisoned.


I don't oppose a religious state where there is no absolute power and everyone is below the Islamic law not above it.

These two statements are opposing. You want everyone to follow Islamic law, meaning being below it, but you don't want anyone with the absolute power to execute it. Be it a person or a group of people.

I don't see how this is opposing. Claiming that there should be no absolute lifetime leader to claim to be leader of Ummah? Come on  you know the type of rank WF has given to themselves. They compete with Imams (they don't admit it but they really do). For example,  I remember Khomeni made Chess Halal where Imam Jafar Sadigh made it Haram and same deal with Music and etc. I don't want to get into the religious argument over those fatwas but imho they are competing with Imams and Ahlulbayt. Everything they (prophet and Ahlulbayt) made halal or haram are to stay that way until return of Imam Mahdi .

The job of Faqihs are to guide people, be judges among them for Islamic laws,  to the best they can in absence of our holy Imam Mahdi. Don't change the religion, don't become their rulers, don't claim to be his successors or predecessor or Imam Mahdi, don't quest for power because power corrupts and only those who are humble and masoom who fully submit to Allah (swt) can handle power.

Scholars jobs is to guide people and invite them ahlulbayt and educating people. But WF is not doing that...it is too busy to do that as it has many other agendas!

I mean THIS IS what made US (Shias) different than them (Sunnis). They (Sunnis) don't believe in concept of infallibility and masoomins in the way we do do so it makes sense to have a khalifa like Umar sit there and rule and make up stuff. I see awful amount of similarities between governance of Umar and early khalafa of Islam and WF.


That everyone is either elected or appointed and is constantly in check so he will do his job right. But a man like WF holding sharia in his hand acting as an Imam, I am sorry I respectfully can't accept.

You are kind of twisting the subject, but you are entitled to your opinion and as long as it's respectful i can't really see any faults in it.

I have no problem if Khameni changes the title to Khalafateh Faqih but I have problem with the words Walayat because it means "gurandianship" and Allah (swt) gave that to Mohammad and Ale Mohammad

Wasalam

With all that said, I respect you and your views and I think we can peacefully coexist

Ya Ali

Wasalam

[repenter]

Ali-Reza, on 25 May 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

اللهم صل على محمد وال محمد




Please see my response in blue  among your quotes.



With all that said, I respect you and your views and I think we can peacefully coexist

Ya Ali

Wasalam

Quote

Now you are comparing IRI to prophet and Ahlulbayt?  Massooms vs. Non Masoons. Classic argument that proves my point! Which is you and those who support WF are making little prophets and Imams.
s

You missed the point. It's comparing the situation not the persons. The prophet and the Ahlulbayt are role models we can use in our daily lives. If i were to do something, and i think to myself: "would imam ali do this?" or "Imam ali never did this" am i comparing myself to imam ali? I'm sorry brother Ali Reza, but this is not a good answer from your part.

Quote

Talking is cheap and IRI knows it. The moment you organize against them they either call you "mortad" or an agent of America or Zionism then you are in all sort of trouble! Whatever happened to Montazeri and his supporters?  Shirazis?  Green movement?  khatamis? karoobis?... etc. I can keep naming them! But evidence speaks lounder than words IRI is pretty unjust because it is made from an awfully  unjust ideology; WF.

You tend to jump from issue to issue, either when you don't want to elaborate on the issue or on purpose, i don't know, but let's have a proper discussion. What do you mean by talking is cheap? You gave an example of your experience in living in Iran, i gave you an example of me living in Iran and told you it was opposite. So the conclusion is, it depends on your point of view and your understanding of the law.

You bring up too many issues that each of them needs it's own thread.

What happened to Montazeri and his supporters? Montazeri got rejected by his own teacher for misbehaving. Montazeri told Ayatollah Khomeini that Ayatollah Khomeinis hukm is above his own, so why didn't he listen to him?
What happened to Shirazis and his supporters? Ayatollah Shirazi has his own lectures in Qum, he visited Ayatollah Bahjats funeral ceremony in his home with other Wilayati Ulama there, and his supporters like Alimi(the maddah) has heyyat in tehran every week. So which supporter are  you talking about? Please give examples.
Green movement? Are you saying that the green movement was a just movement and adil movement by good muslims?

You can name all you want, but naming names proves nothing. Just because you don't agree with someone getting arrested and you don't understand why they got arrested does not make it unjust, it good equally mean that you dont have the foundation to understand it.

Quote

Yes if you are on side of IRI then you are biased in their favor then things look fine to you. But nobles are those who look at things unbiased because they are on side of justice.  Iran is pretty unjust; toward the minorities, even toward the Shias.

Please try to speak academically. Who is IRI? There are a lot of people against the Wilayat Faghi in the IRI, are you talking about them? So you are calling those people who support the Nizam(not IRI) for biased, but somehow if you are against it you are on the side of justice. Isn't that a bit arrogant?

Quote

Please answer my Question; Let's say you live in Tehran, but you want to go to local Masjid for Friday prayer instead of spending half of your day going to Tehran university to pray behind an IRI appointed scholar. Do you think you are allowed to do that?

I have a feeling that you might have either not lived in Tehran or you are having some bad experience from somewhere which does not reflect reality. There are plenty of Masjids open during Namaz joome in Tehran, not everyone can go to Tehran university during friday. I know from experience as i have gone to masjid during fridays, so you have to explain yourself, not me.

Quote

Yes I admit there was some level of inaccuracies in my statement in terms of whom are in Islamic shura of Iran but I was speaking of experience and what I had observed;
When Khomeni died, there were more qualified mutahids than Khameni!  In fact he wasn't even an Ayatullah at the time let alone a mujtahid\marja.

No there wasn't anyone more qualified than him, that is why they chose him, again this is untrue unless you are saying that those that chose him where corrupt, which is a bold claim to make.
And he was a mujtahid, where did you get that he wasn't a mujtahid from? He was not a marja, but that was never a requirement from Islamic viewpoint, which is why they changed the constitution.

Your concept of Islam is not correct, what is an ayatollah? I think you mean a marja, Ayatollah is just a title of respect people give ulama with a high level of fiqh.

Quote

They didn't even wait until complete burial funeral of Khoemini before they elected a new WF overlooking many other scholars. I don't know about you but I still remember the conflict between montazeri and his supporters vs. Khameni and his supporters. At the end, Khamenei won and put montazeri under house arrest and many of his supporters got prisoned.

You have to understand the function of WF before criticizing anything. They choose among the democratically elected assembly of experts. Are you calling all these ulama incompetent to elect among themselves in a right and timely fashion as they did?

No i don't remember the conflict between Montazeri and Khamenei and his supporters. I was 5 years old then. How old were you?
See this debate is getting ridiculous which is why i am going to stop, i was hoping for a productive debate, but that is hard to do when its based on what one feels instead of what one can academically present as a point of discussion.
You are questioning the knowledge and decision of 86 of the greatest Ulama whom have a seat in Assembly of Expert. If you make such a claim, you have to present a very strong case. You are not doing this.

Quote

I have no problem if Khameni changes the title to Khalafateh Faqih but I have problem with the words Walayat because it means "gurandianship" and Allah (swt) gave that to Mohammad and Ale Mohammad

This is exactly why i believe it's wise for me to stop the debate. It's like the people who are againt everything Imam Khomeini stood for because there is an "imam" when people are referring to him. It's a very low standard to debate as such.

wasalam

Edited by repenter, Today, 04:46 PM.

[AhlulBayt_313]

Ali-Reza, on 25 May 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

   YOU STATED: "Classic argument that proves my point! Which is you and those who support WF are making little prophets and Imams."       

Edited by AhlulBayt_313, Today, 05:48 PM.

[awaiting_for_the.12th]

^ It really is something that still shocks me. Our own Shia's dont understand Masooms.
Just coz someone has all political power does not equate them to being an Imam.
An Imam has Wilayat Takwini and Wilayat Tashree
A WF only has Wilayat Tashree.
I swear at times sunnis are smarter that they atleast understood the concept of having one leader. Our leader is Imam no doubt, but in his Ghaybah someone has to lead Muslim nation. How can we keep quoting from Quran that there always has to be a guardian present, that even if two people go for a journey to choose a leader among you, but then act ignorant when someone tries to lead shia's in the right direction.

[AhlulBayt_313]

awaiting_for_the.12th, on 25 May 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

^ It really is something that still shocks me. Our own Shia's dont understand Masooms.
Just coz someone has all political power does not equate them to being an Imam.
An Imam has Wilayat Takwini and Wilayat Tashree
A WF only has Wilayat Tashree.
I swear at times sunnis are smarter that they atleast understood the concept of having one leader. Our leader is Imam no doubt, but in his Ghaybah someone has to lead Muslim nation. How can we keep quoting from Quran that there always has to be a guardian present, that even if two people go for a journey to choose a leader among you, but then act ignorant when someone tries to lead shia's in the right direction.

Who is this directed to, or are you speaking in general terms?

Edited by AhlulBayt_313, Today, 06:33 PM.

[awaiting_for_the.12th]

AhlulBayt_313, on 25 May 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Who is this directed to, or are you speaking in general terms?

Not you, but those who are against WF

[Wizdom]

Shaheed Syed Mohammed Beheshti:

[AhlulBayt_313]

Wizdom, on 25 May 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

Shaheed Syed Mohammed Beheshti:

I'll check it out. I hope he had nice things to say...thanks Wiz