#1
Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:03 AM
#2
Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:22 AM
imamiyyah.blogspot.com
#3
Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:27 AM
Ibn al-Hassan, on 22 May 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:
Edited by AhlulBayt_313, 22 May 2013 - 02:29 AM.
#4
Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:30 AM
I'll read this later, inshallah.
I had vilayat-i-faqih in college and not all Ayatollahs agree with this.
The Companion Umar had scholars around himself when he was Caliph as they could remember better than himself.
#5
Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:59 AM
hasanhh, on 22 May 2013 - 05:30 AM, said:
I'll read this later, inshallah.
I had vilayat-i-faqih in college and not all Ayatollahs agree with this.
The Companion Umar had scholars around himself when he was Caliph as they could remember better than himself.
Edited by AhlulBayt_313, 22 May 2013 - 06:00 AM.
#6
Posted 22 May 2013 - 12:19 PM
AhlulBayt_313, on 22 May 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:
See, I don't have much interest in reading too deeply into these arguments (although, I did actually read that treatise by Sayyid Khomeini awhile back). The reason being that our Masumeen [as] did not teach it. Simple as that. They did not encourage their Shi'ah to involve themselves in political movements and such. In fact, if anything they have emphatically commanded their Shi'ah to stay away from these political endeavors and ambitions. We are to wait for the deliverance of the Qa'im [as]. We were never told to establish political government through the utilization of the faith and transform it into a distinct ideology. The establishment of a just, Islamic government is the prerogative of an Imam al-Masum, and the Qa'im [as] in particular. What we see now is this attempt at crystallizing Shi'ism into a political force to be reckoned with. I find this problematic, as the Imams [as] did not teach this. Second, it has always been the assertion of the Shi'ah that religious leaders need be infallible. Was this not our dispute with the Sunnis? Nobody differed over whether or not we should have a caliphate. They differed over the qualifications of that caliph. We Shi'ahs have always emphasized the point that leaders must be infallible for them to be above scrutiny (although, it was always the Infallible leaders that were most welcome to criticism). Now, we find ourselves, essentially, in favor of the Sunni conception of the caliphate (with the relatively minor requirement that he must be knowledgeable in matters of fiqh, like that really makes a difference to how he rules). If we continue to go down this path, I fear that head of the "Islamic" state will eventually become a "Divinely inspired" seat, very much akin to how the Pope is seen in Catholicism. We will elevate fallibles to the level of infallibility (even if we don't outright acknowledge it).
Now, I know people will say, "but we have to establish an Islamic government". Though, you can have Islamic laws and policies that reflect the Islamic way of life, without placing a single man on the top (who then has the ability to control nearly every policy decision in the country). If people truly believe in their Islam and out of their own free will choose to accept it, they will naturally favor those policies that befit them as Muslims. But, I'd rather do without an "Islamic" government (which we are not obligated to establish anyways), than to have political ideology mixed in with the pristine faith, allowing fallibles to dictate our beliefs and actions and closing the doors to interpretation. Not only that, but most of the time the policies of the government will have to do with what's in the best interest of the people of that specific nation. The resources will go towards favoring those individuals over others. Ex. The Islamic Republic of Iran definitely favors those people who are "Iranian", nobody can just move over to Iran and reap the benefits of the Islamic government as they should for being Muslim. Instead, the government favors non-Muslim Iranians over non-Iranian Muslims. Is this what the Prophet [sawa] taught? I'm not sure how he would have carried this forth, but I can be sure he would not care much for the nationality of a particular Muslim.
Anyways, that's all for the moment. And even if you happen to agree with the political theory of Walayat al-Faqih, there have been major changes in terms of the power and authority of the Wali al-Faqih than was originally given to him and was envisioned by Sayyid Khomeini. You may want to read this paper here: https://www.dropbox....ic Republic.pdf
imamiyyah.blogspot.com
#7
Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:02 PM
Going to hawza for so many years can make you a good marjah but Wali...I highly doubt.
So I don't personally subscribe to this concept it and I hope Allah (swt) forgive me if I am wrong as I am only a laymen but sometimes you don't need to read a ton of books to figure out things are being twisted in favor of staying in power.
Edited by Ali-Reza, 22 May 2013 - 02:15 PM.
اللهم صل على محمد وال محمد
Faithfuls.org | San Diego Shia Islamic Center | Imam Hossein Tent Islamic Center
Important Disclaimer: Comments stated by me on this forum are entirely mine and not of any scholars or organizations I attend or maybe involved with.
#8
Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:45 PM
Ibn al-Hassan, on 22 May 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:
Now, I know people will say, "but we have to establish an Islamic government". Though, you can have Islamic laws and policies that reflect the Islamic way of life, without placing a single man on the top (who then has the ability to control nearly every policy decision in the country). If people truly believe in their Islam and out of their own free will choose to accept it, they will naturally favor those policies that befit them as Muslims. But, I'd rather do without an "Islamic" government (which we are not obligated to establish anyways), than to have political ideology mixed in with the pristine faith, allowing fallibles to dictate our beliefs and actions and closing the doors to interpretation. Not only that, but most of the time the policies of the government will have to do with what's in the best interest of the people of that specific nation. The resources will go towards favoring those individuals over others. Ex. The Islamic Republic of Iran definitely favors those people who are "Iranian", nobody can just move over to Iran and reap the benefits of the Islamic government as they should for being Muslim. Instead, the government favors non-Muslim Iranians over non-Iranian Muslims. Is this what the Prophet [sawa] taught? I'm not sure how he would have carried this forth, but I can be sure he would not care much for the nationality of a particular Muslim.
Anyways, that's all for the moment. And even if you happen to agree with the political theory of Walayat al-Faqih, there have been major changes in terms of the power and authority of the Wali al-Faqih than was originally given to him and was envisioned by Sayyid Khomeini. You may want to read this paper here: https://www.dropbox....ic Republic.pdf
Edited by AhlulBayt_313, 22 May 2013 - 03:59 PM.
#9
Posted Yesterday, 12:15 AM
AhlulBayt_313, on 22 May 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "bad" people hurting Muslims. Do you mean that they are physically stopping them from performing religious obligations and rituals? Any government would have to allow for some reasonable amount of religious freedom, not only in holding certain beliefs, but also in carrying out their own rituals and rites. So, this wouldn't only apply to an Islamic government.
imamiyyah.blogspot.com
#10
Posted Yesterday, 01:31 AM
Ibn al-Hassan, on 23 May 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:
ya you probably can practice Islam more freely in none Muslim countries because of freedom of religion than in so called Muslim states. In Pakistan you can get bombed, in Saudi Arabia all sort of things can happen to you, and even in Iran, you need to close your mosque on Fridays in Friday sermons or you get in serious trouble.
اللهم صل على محمد وال محمد
Faithfuls.org | San Diego Shia Islamic Center | Imam Hossein Tent Islamic Center
Important Disclaimer: Comments stated by me on this forum are entirely mine and not of any scholars or organizations I attend or maybe involved with.
#11
Posted Yesterday, 03:38 AM
Edited by AhlulBayt_313, Yesterday, 03:40 AM.
#12
Posted Yesterday, 03:48 AM
AhlulBayt_313, on 23 May 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:
After so many years on shiachat, we have learned better.....its been argued to death and then some.
Basically it all comes down to the Mutlagh part. Some people say only masoom can do this, some people say ulama can do this as well. Few Ulama disagree with Wilayat Faghi, most disagreement is on the mutlagh part.
#13
Posted Yesterday, 04:04 AM
repenter, on 23 May 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:
Basically it all comes down to the Mutlagh part. Some people say only masoom can do this, some people say ulama can do this as well. Few Ulama disagree with Wilayat Faghi, most disagreement is on the mutlagh part.
Edited by AhlulBayt_313, Yesterday, 04:05 AM.
#14
Posted Yesterday, 03:09 PM
repenter, on 23 May 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:
Basically it all comes down to the Mutlagh part. Some people say only masoom can do this, some people say ulama can do this as well. Few Ulama disagree with Wilayat Faghi, most disagreement is on the mutlagh part.
Repenter pointed this out very well. I think is the Mutlagh, the absolute part, that people have problems with. I personally prefer a religious leader over a non religious one because I know he will have taqwa (inshallah) but then again through history of Islam many have claimed just that. So for that reason "mutlagh" is only of prophets and Imams IMHO.
اللهم صل على محمد وال محمد
Faithfuls.org | San Diego Shia Islamic Center | Imam Hossein Tent Islamic Center
Important Disclaimer: Comments stated by me on this forum are entirely mine and not of any scholars or organizations I attend or maybe involved with.
#15
Posted Yesterday, 06:09 PM
Throughout time, Shias have tried to establish a government (after Prophet's wafat) but due to various reasons it kept getting postponed or the priorities changed for that era. Shias were imprisoned, executed, exiled, kept in minority or in hostile conditions so every era had its own challenges but the idea of a just government was always in the back of head.
First one was setup by Imam Ali
Second one was setup by Mukhtar in Kufa
I cant recall if there were any other significant ones after that which were based on Ahlulbayt
Then we have the Islamic revolution which has AlhumdAllah lasted 34 years. This is the golden age for Shias.
Teri nisbat say ye Islam bhala lagta hai
Log kehtay hain teray ishq mein kafir mujh ko
Meray dil ko ye ilzam bhala lagta hai
#16
Posted Yesterday, 09:24 PM
Ibn al-Hassan, on 23 May 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:
I actually quite admire your reasons for not agreeing with WF because so many people on ShiaChat and around the world don't know much about it but draw up conclusions based on the bad things they hear about from others. Most anti-WF people are haters who say stereotypical things like, "the Mullahs have a dictatorship" or "the Mullahs are stealing all our money" without actually researching much about it.
I actually have two ahadith from our 3rd infallible Imam (a) which not only support the mixing of religion in politics, but also the enforcing of Islamic laws.
Imam Husayn (a) - "Your difficulties are worse than others , because you were deprived of the rank of the scholars - considering your legitimacy and merit - (These difficulties are) because administering the affairs of the society and conveying the (religious) rules must be done by scholars who truly believe in God and know what is permitted and what is forbidden by God." [p.238 Tuhaf ul-Uqul]
"Discharging of the duties and the enforcement of laws should be in the hands of the scholars, God-fearing & pious persons. These are the people who do not make any changes in the divine commands pertaining to lawful and unlawful things, and who are the custodians of trusts." [p.242 Tuhaf ul-Uqul]
#17
Posted Today, 03:11 AM
GodBlessAli, on 23 May 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:
I actually have two ahadith from our 3rd infallible Imam (a) which not only support the mixing of religion in politics, but also the enforcing of Islamic laws.
Imam Husayn (a) - "Your difficulties are worse than others , because you were deprived of the rank of the scholars - considering your legitimacy and merit - (These difficulties are) because administering the affairs of the society and conveying the (religious) rules must be done by scholars who truly believe in God and know what is permitted and what is forbidden by God." [p.238 Tuhaf ul-Uqul]
"Discharging of the duties and the enforcement of laws should be in the hands of the scholars, God-fearing & pious persons. These are the people who do not make any changes in the divine commands pertaining to lawful and unlawful things, and who are the custodians of trusts." [p.242 Tuhaf ul-Uqul]
Well said. Thing is few,,very few scholars disagree with Wilayat Faghi. The only disagreement is on the execution of it, namely the mutlagh part. If you see a scholar not being active in politics or social issues, it doesn't mean he doesn't agree with it, i means either he has dedicated his time to something else or that he has realized that he might not be good at it and has decided to not involve himself for the greater good, and there is no shame in that.
#18
Posted Today, 04:59 AM
AhlulBayt_313, on 22 May 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:
It is wajib on any muslim, that when they see injustice and oppression happening, they should try to correct it and set thing right. How they go about this depends on their resources and ability. I am not trying to start a war, but I never read anything in hadith that states that this obligation for 'Amr bil Maroof wa nahiya and munkhar' (enjoining good and forbidding evil) on a societal level is not valid until the time of Al Qaim(a.f.s). The basis of Wilayat Al Faqih is to 'enjoing good and forbid evil' and to establish justice in society and to combat injustice and oppression. If we see any group or individual who believe in Allah(s.w.a) and the Day of Judgement, who believe in Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and the Wilayat of 12 Imam(a.s.) and are working to enjoing good and forbid evil and establish justice and fight against oppression and injustice, then we should support them.
Edited by Abu Hadi, Today, 05:00 AM.
With my continuous chain of transmission reaching up to Muhammad ibn Ya'qub al-Kulaynl, from al-Husayn ibn Muhammad, from al-Mu'alla ibn Muhammad, from al-Hasan ibn 'All al-Washsha', from 'Abd Allah ibn Sinan, from Abu 'Abd Allah, may Peace be upon him, which he said:
"Among the things pertaining to the soundness of a Muslim's certitude [in faith] is that he would not please people while displeasing God, nor blame them for something that God has not given him. For, verily, [God's] rizq (provision, sustenance) is not brought about by anybody's greed, nor is it withheld by anyone's disapproval, and were anyone of you to flee from his rizq like he flees death, his rizq would overtake him in the way he is overtaken by death." Then he added, "Indeed Allah with His justice and fairness, has put joy and comfort in certainty (yaqin) and satisfaction (al- rida) and He has put sorrow and grief in doubt and dissatisfaction."
http://www.al-islam.org/40hadith/
#19
Posted Today, 05:42 AM
Abu Hadi, on 24 May 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:
Edited by AhlulBayt_313, Today, 06:19 AM.
#20
Posted Today, 07:43 AM
#21
Posted Today, 07:44 AM
Edited by Abu Hadi, Today, 07:44 AM.
With my continuous chain of transmission reaching up to Muhammad ibn Ya'qub al-Kulaynl, from al-Husayn ibn Muhammad, from al-Mu'alla ibn Muhammad, from al-Hasan ibn 'All al-Washsha', from 'Abd Allah ibn Sinan, from Abu 'Abd Allah, may Peace be upon him, which he said:
"Among the things pertaining to the soundness of a Muslim's certitude [in faith] is that he would not please people while displeasing God, nor blame them for something that God has not given him. For, verily, [God's] rizq (provision, sustenance) is not brought about by anybody's greed, nor is it withheld by anyone's disapproval, and were anyone of you to flee from his rizq like he flees death, his rizq would overtake him in the way he is overtaken by death." Then he added, "Indeed Allah with His justice and fairness, has put joy and comfort in certainty (yaqin) and satisfaction (al- rida) and He has put sorrow and grief in doubt and dissatisfaction."
http://www.al-islam.org/40hadith/
#22
Posted Today, 07:52 AM
Abu Hadi, on 24 May 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:
Edited by AhlulBayt_313, Today, 07:53 AM.
#23
Posted 59 minutes ago
GodBlessAli, on 23 May 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:
I actually have two ahadith from our 3rd infallible Imam (a) which not only support the mixing of religion in politics, but also the enforcing of Islamic laws.
Imam Husayn (a) - "Your difficulties are worse than others , because you were deprived of the rank of the scholars - considering your legitimacy and merit - (These difficulties are) because administering the affairs of the society and conveying the (religious) rules must be done by scholars who truly believe in God and know what is permitted and what is forbidden by God." [p.238 Tuhaf ul-Uqul]
"Discharging of the duties and the enforcement of laws should be in the hands of the scholars, God-fearing & pious persons. These are the people who do not make any changes in the divine commands pertaining to lawful and unlawful things, and who are the custodians of trusts." [p.242 Tuhaf ul-Uqul]
Thank you to everyone who has commented thus far, I appreciate your efforts and respect your opinion's. Wasalam
Edited by AhlulBayt_313, 48 minutes ago.
#24
Posted 57 minutes ago
With my continuous chain of transmission reaching up to Muhammad ibn Ya'qub al-Kulaynl, from al-Husayn ibn Muhammad, from al-Mu'alla ibn Muhammad, from al-Hasan ibn 'All al-Washsha', from 'Abd Allah ibn Sinan, from Abu 'Abd Allah, may Peace be upon him, which he said:
"Among the things pertaining to the soundness of a Muslim's certitude [in faith] is that he would not please people while displeasing God, nor blame them for something that God has not given him. For, verily, [God's] rizq (provision, sustenance) is not brought about by anybody's greed, nor is it withheld by anyone's disapproval, and were anyone of you to flee from his rizq like he flees death, his rizq would overtake him in the way he is overtaken by death." Then he added, "Indeed Allah with His justice and fairness, has put joy and comfort in certainty (yaqin) and satisfaction (al- rida) and He has put sorrow and grief in doubt and dissatisfaction."
http://www.al-islam.org/40hadith/
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