22 replies to this topic

[Ali-F]

Aslamu alaykum


I am a bit confused about these two things.

I know, that tawsuel is Allahuma bi Haqi Ahlulbayt as e.g..

And Ya Ali Madad is istrfigafah, or something like that..


What is the proves for saying "Ya Ali Madad" ?


Thanks.

[Ali-F]

In all due to respect, what is the proves?

[skamran110]

@.....

فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ مَوْلَاهُ وَجِبْرِيلُ وَصَالِحُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ.......

then surely Allah it is Who is his Guardian, and Jibreel and -the believers that do good, and the angels after that are the aiders. (Quran 66;4)

If the belieevrs are aiders / helpers of the prophet Muhammad pbuh & hf, then the Ameer ul momineen (Chief of believers) can certanly help us, This help has been proven from the history of Islam at various occassions including Badar, Khandaq (Al Ahzab), khaiber, uhud  and others, where the prophet called Imam Ali for his help..

This help has also been proved at the occassions of Mubahila against the bani najran when the prophet took his Ahl al bayat a.s. as his aiders to announce the religion islam as true against the christicians.

Then calling Ya Ali madad is the sunna of the prophet saww.

Edited by skamran110, 18 May 2013 - 11:30 AM.

[Ali-F]

Brother, that isn't a proof. The Prophet called for "help" in dunya. How can a person say "Ya Ali Madad" when they can say "Allahuma bi Haqi Ali" instead?  That is in quran.

Please clerify.

Edited by Ali-F, 18 May 2013 - 11:36 AM.

[PureEthics]

Ali-F, on 18 May 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

Brother, that isn't a proof. The Prophet called for "help" in dunya. How can a person say "Ya Ali Madad" when they can say "Allahuma bi Haqi Ali" instead?  That is in quran.

Please clerify.

dude, you have made at least 5 of these threads in the past. There are also many threads on this, go check them out and come to your own conclusion. Using tawassul isnt a requirement, its your choice.

[Ali-F]

PureEthics, on 18 May 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

dude, you have made at least 5 of these threads in the past. There are also many threads on this, go check them out and come to your own conclusion. Using tawassul isnt a requirement, its your choice.

I am not asking about tawasueel, but Ya Ali Madad.

[PureEthics]

Ali-F, on 18 May 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

I am not asking about tawasueel, but Ya Ali Madad.

It pretty much tawassul dude.

[Ali-F]

PureEthics, on 18 May 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

It pretty much tawassul dude.

Sure? Ya Ali Madad is called istrafaat or something like that?

[PureEthics]

Ali-F, on 18 May 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

Sure? Ya Ali Madad is called istrafaat or something like that?

Its the same concept. No matter what you call it, when you call on a divinely chosen being directly or indirectly, it is still by the will of Allah, if Allah wills. They are never independent. Thus its tawassul.

[al-`Ajal Ya Imaam]

AhlulBayt_313, on 18 May 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

Commander_of_the_Faithfuls_%201.jpghttp://www.shiachat....50#entry2563179

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركته
This Hadeeth, of Du`aa Naday `Ali, is weak. It was recorded by `Allaamah Muhammad Baaqir Majlisi b. Muhammad Taqi Majlisi رضي الله عنه in his Bihaar al-Anwaar, volume 20 page 72-73 Hadeeth 11, and he took it from Sharh ad-Diwaan. The original Du`aa from the source goes as follows:

قال : ويقال : إن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله نودي في هذا اليوم : ناد عليا مظهرالعجائب تجده عونا لك في النوائب كل غم وهم سينجلي بولايتك يا علي ياعلي ياعلي

However, there is no Sanad to the Hadeeth. I have put the Du`aa itself above in red. The one who has investigated the book has also added the following footnote:

( 1 ) الجملة الاخيرة فيها غرابة ولا تلائم سابقها ، والظاهر أنها من زيادة بعض الجهلة ، او الصوفية المضلة الذين يزعمون أن هذه الجملات تكون دعاء فيذكرونها وردا وذكرا ، غفلة عن معناها ، بل بعضهم يرون للمداومة على ذكرها فضيلة ليست للصلاة ، حفظنا الله عن البدع واتباع الاهواء .

A translation I found: In the last sentence there is some strangeness, and it does not suit what preceded it. What is apparent is that it is an addition from some of the ignorant, or the straying Soofis that claim these sentences are Du`aa, heedless of its meaning. Rather, some of them relate for constantly reciting it virtue that is not (even) for salaat. May Allah guard us from innovation and the following of caprice.

The question was also asked on the `Aalims' network on al-Islam.org about the source of the Du`aa (here) to which Shaykh Mustafaa Ja`far has said that al-Khoei رضي الله عنه had rejected the Du`aa as per his standards. Therefore this weak hadeeth cannot be used as evidence. wa Allaahu 'Aa`lam.
والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركته

Edited by al-`Ajal Ya Imaam, 18 May 2013 - 02:39 PM.

[AhlulBayt_313]

al-`Ajal Ya Imaam, on 18 May 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركته
This Hadeeth, of Du`aa Naday `Ali, is weak. It was recorded by `Allaamah Muhammad Baaqir Majlisi b. Muhammad Taqi Majlisi رضي الله عنه in his Bihaar al-Anwaar, volume 20 page 72-73 Hadeeth 11, and he took it from Sharh ad-Diwaan. The original Du`aa from the source goes as follows:

قال : ويقال : إن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله نودي في هذا اليوم : ناد عليا مظهرالعجائب تجده عونا لك في النوائب كل غم وهم سينجلي بولايتك يا علي ياعلي ياعلي

However, there is no Sanad to the Hadeeth. I have put the Du`aa itself above in red. The one who has investigated the book has also added the following footnote:

( 1 ) الجملة الاخيرة فيها غرابة ولا تلائم سابقها ، والظاهر أنها من زيادة بعض الجهلة ، او الصوفية المضلة الذين يزعمون أن هذه الجملات تكون دعاء فيذكرونها وردا وذكرا ، غفلة عن معناها ، بل بعضهم يرون للمداومة على ذكرها فضيلة ليست للصلاة ، حفظنا الله عن البدع واتباع الاهواء .

A translation I found: In the last sentence there is some strangeness, and it does not suit what preceded it. What is apparent is that it is an addition from some of the ignorant, or the straying Soofis that claim these sentences are Du`aa, heedless of its meaning. Rather, some of them relate for constantly reciting it virtue that is not (even) for salaat. May Allah guard us from innovation and the following of caprice.

The question was also asked on the `Aalims' network on al-Islam.org about the source of the Du`aa (here) to which Shaykh Mustafaa Ja`far has said that al-Khoei رضي الله عنه had rejected the Du`aa as per his standards. Therefore this weak hadeeth cannot be used as evidence. wa Allaahu 'Aa`lam.
والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركته

OK.

Edited by AhlulBayt_313, 18 May 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[Ali-Reza]

al-`Ajal Ya Imaam, on 18 May 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركته
This Hadeeth, of Du`aa Naday `Ali, is weak. It was recorded by `Allaamah Muhammad Baaqir Majlisi b. Muhammad Taqi Majlisi رضي الله عنه in his Bihaar al-Anwaar, volume 20 page 72-73 Hadeeth 11, and he took it from Sharh ad-Diwaan. The original Du`aa from the source goes as follows:

قال : ويقال : إن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله نودي في هذا اليوم : ناد عليا مظهرالعجائب تجده عونا لك في النوائب كل غم وهم سينجلي بولايتك يا علي ياعلي ياعلي

However, there is no Sanad to the Hadeeth. I have put the Du`aa itself above in red. The one who has investigated the book has also added the following footnote:

( 1 ) الجملة الاخيرة فيها غرابة ولا تلائم سابقها ، والظاهر أنها من زيادة بعض الجهلة ، او الصوفية المضلة الذين يزعمون أن هذه الجملات تكون دعاء فيذكرونها وردا وذكرا ، غفلة عن معناها ، بل بعضهم يرون للمداومة على ذكرها فضيلة ليست للصلاة ، حفظنا الله عن البدع واتباع الاهواء .

A translation I found: In the last sentence there is some strangeness, and it does not suit what preceded it. What is apparent is that it is an addition from some of the ignorant, or the straying Soofis that claim these sentences are Du`aa, heedless of its meaning. Rather, some of them relate for constantly reciting it virtue that is not (even) for salaat. May Allah guard us from innovation and the following of caprice.

The question was also asked on the `Aalims' network on al-Islam.org about the source of the Du`aa (here) to which Shaykh Mustafaa Ja`far has said that al-Khoei رضي الله عنه had rejected the Du`aa as per his standards. Therefore this weak hadeeth cannot be used as evidence. wa Allaahu 'Aa`lam.
والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركته

Not entirely true. This thread has been discussed here in ziarat Amirul Momenin as we say" assalamu alaika ya mazhar al-Ajaeb wa al-ayat.."

If Imam Ali and prophet   and Ahlulbayt were the first light and creation of  Allah (swt), then I don't understand why this hadith\dua is such a big deal to many even with weak sanad...

Food for thought; there are lots hadith with strong sanad on sunni books we shias STRONGLY reject!

Ya Ali!

Edited by Ali-Reza, 18 May 2013 - 04:03 PM.

[Ali-F]

PureEthics, on 18 May 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Its the same concept. No matter what you call it, when you call on a divinely chosen being directly or indirectly, it is still by the will of Allah, if Allah wills. They are never independent. Thus its tawassul.

But Allahuma bi Haqi Ali and Ya Ali Madad, is two different things, right?

[PureEthics]

Ali-F, on 18 May 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

But Allahuma bi Haqi Ali and Ya Ali Madad, is two different things, right?

in the literal sense yea, but still their both tawassul, Your still using Imam Ali as the means to Allah. One is indirectly and the other is directly. For those who dont do tawassul they choose your first statement.

[al-`Ajal Ya Imaam]

Ali-Reza, on 18 May 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

Not entirely true. This thread has been discussed here in ziarat Amirul Momenin as we say" assalamu alaika ya mazhar al-Ajaeb wa al-ayat.."

If Imam Ali and prophet   and Ahlulbayt were the first light and creation of  Allah (swt), then I don't understand why this hadith\dua is such a big deal to many even with weak sanad...

Food for thought; there are lots hadith with strong sanad on sunni books we shias STRONGLY reject!

Ya Ali!

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركته
I'm not much in the mood of a debate since it's already clearly been debated multiple times on this forum, however for the sake of argument, including the phrase Mazh'har al-`Ajaa'ib does not make the Du`aa automatically Mu`tabar, that might be a quality of Ameer al-Mu'mineen عليه السلام, however the fact that there is no chain still stands clear. Apart from that, refer to how Shaykh `Abd ar-Raheem Rubaani (?) ash-Shiraazi (authenticator and commenter of Bihaar al-Anwaar-amongst other books such as Wasaa'il ash-Shi`ah) says can be a fabrication from a Soofi or a ignorant person, based on how the latter not matching the former, ie. Mazh'har al-`Ajaa'ib could've been added. My point of saying that the Du`aa is weak is because the person posted it as evidence for saying that Ya `Ali Madad is permissible, whereas since it's a weak Hadeeth, it's not evidence for anything. wa Allaahu 'Aa`lam.
والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركته

[Ali-F]

But you just said "in the literal sense yea", so how can Allahuma bi Haqi Ali not be tawasueel, because u said " For those who dont do tawassul they choose your first statement."

[AhlulBayt_313]

al-`Ajal Ya Imaam, on 18 May 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركته
I'm not much in the mood of a debate since it's already clearly been debated multiple times on this forum, however for the sake of argument, including the phrase Mazh'har al-`Ajaa'ib does not make the Du`aa automatically Mu`tabar, that might be a quality of Ameer al-Mu'mineen عليه السلام, however the fact that there is no chain still stands clear. Apart from that, refer to how Shaykh `Abd ar-Raheem Rubaani (?) ash-Shiraazi (authenticator and commenter of Bihaar al-Anwaar-amongst other books such as Wasaa'il ash-Shi`ah) says can be a fabrication from a Soofi or a ignorant person, based on how the latter not matching the former, ie. Mazh'har al-`Ajaa'ib could've been added. My point of saying that the Du`aa is weak is because the person posted it as evidence for saying that Ya `Ali Madad is permissible, whereas since it's a weak Hadeeth, it's not evidence for anything. wa Allaahu 'Aa`lam.
والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركته

Actually, I posted it because I wanted to...It wasn't even for evidentiary reasons, it was just a picture I made (and a good one for that matter). Some people use Ya Ali Madad, and some don't (it's really a matter of choice at this point).  As for my reasoning for posting that picture, I don't feel I need to validate myself or my picture of Imam Ali to you. But, I'll give you some sense of relief, since you clearly went out of your way (and still are) to challenge that picture (Hadith). I was trying to shed a little humor.  You know that thing we call humor, to put a little smile on people's faces??? You see, it went like this: Someone posted a thread that had to do with people saying Ya Ali, so I attempted to be humorous by posting a picture where you can say Ya Ali! I guess the humor didn't resonate To be honest, I was going to have it removed, because I realized it wasn't helping (or no one got my humor). Anyways, you didn't approve of the Hadith that was used on it. Well, that's your choice and opinion. You can look at all the websites you want, books galore, but at the end of the day; you follow your Truth, and I will surely follow mine. By the way, there are many Naade Ali Hadith's (short one's and long one's). I chose a little one because I needed it to fit in the artwork. Whether you believe or approve of that Hadith is your own prerogative. There are thousands of Hadith on here, and all over the internet, and we all don't agree on them. I commend you on your approach to address the Naade Ali, but I don't agree with you. So, we can agree to disagree and let it be. Wasalam

[skamran110]

@ Ali-F

Do you think it is not necessary to follow the prophet sunna after his demise?

Edited by skamran110, Today, 08:11 AM.

[Ali-F]

skamran110, on 21 May 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

@ Ali-F

Do you think it is not necessary to follow the prophet sunna after his demise?

Yes, I think.

[skamran110]

Then this is prophet sunna to call Imam Ali for help and that has been proven in the history of Islam, as I have quoted the incidents. I  quote again hereunder:

This calling of Imam Ali for help, has been proven from the history of Islam at various occassions including Badar, Khandaq (Al Ahzab), khaiber, uhud  and others, where the prophet called Imam Ali for his help..

This help has also been proved at the occassions of Mubahila against the bani najran when the prophet took his Ahl al bayat a.s. as his aiders to announce the religion islam as true against the christicians.

Then calling Ya Ali madad (Calling Imam Ali for help) is the sunna of the prophet saww.

Edited by skamran110, Today, 12:10 PM.

[Ali-F]

skamran110, on 21 May 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

Then this is prophet sunna to call Imam Ali for help and that has been proven in the history of Islam, as I have quoted the incidents. I  quote again hereunder:

This calling of Imam Ali for help, has been proven from the history of Islam at various occassions including Badar, Khandaq (Al Ahzab), khaiber, uhud  and others, where the prophet called Imam Ali for his help..

This help has also been proved at the occassions of Mubahila against the bani najran when the prophet took his Ahl al bayat a.s. as his aiders to announce the religion islam as true against the christicians.

Then calling Ya Ali madad (Calling Imam Ali for help) is the sunna of the prophet saww.

Yes, but is the proves that our imams did it?

[skamran110]

@ Ali-F

Do you intend to deny the sunna of the prophet?  That has been proven fact in the light of quran and history.

There is no verse in quran that states that the prophet sunna should be followed only when he is alive. If this is so then there will be religion after the prophet Muhammad saww. i hope you get my point.

Edited by skamran110, Today, 12:24 PM.

[Ali-F]

skamran110, on 21 May 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

@ Ali-F

Do you intend to deny the sunna of the prophet?  That has been proven fact in the light of quran and history.

There is no verse in quran that states that the prophet sunna should be followed only when he is alive. If this is so then there will be religion after the prophet Muhammad saww. i hope you get my point.

If I should be honest, I do not see Ya Ali Madad as shirk, neither haram, but I don't want to do it. I will be in safe side? You know?