47 replies to this topic

[Abdul Qaim]

PureEthics, on 18 May 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

brother you shouldnt say that. There are many people who are shia and have doubts, especially on here. The least you are doing is making your faith strong and even helping others grasp it. This is why I like jinn and rosh, they challenge me in ways I have never thought of. I believe this is the struggle Allah is talking about. The objective shouldnt be trying to persuade them but truly dissecting their questions and answering them within your own self. At the end of the day, you cannot persuade everyone.

I agree. I guess I should've been more precise. What I mean is that attempting to convince Ugly Jinn and Rorschach is a futile exercise.

[PureEthics]

Abdul Qaim, on 18 May 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

I agree. I guess I should've been more precise. What I mean is that attempting to convince Ugly Jinn and Rorschach is a futile exercise.

lol you never know. If salafis which are the most hardcore minded beings on earth, can become shias, maybe, just maybe one day these two will have some faith.

[iDevonian]

Ugly Jinn, on 18 May 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

As a human, we have to draw a line somewhere. We just can't keep dismissing reality and living in this 'unverified' world, otherwise there is no point of reality if there is nothing we can take from it.

Just a comment on this.  Islam is, in my opinion, empowered on the applications that it brings to reality.  People cant always describe specific details of truth in Islam.  We arent all scholars, and yet, Islamic still succeeds in societies based on what it brings to people.  I consider this, a form of verifying truth in Islam, the message of Islam, in my opinion, certainly does hold truth, even if there are cases in which, we could not explain those truths. Or perhaps, its applicable in life, is not identical to material that we cannot explain or verify application in.

IbnSohan, on 18 May 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

Assalamu Alaykum,

There are verses in Quran that speak about a day that is not the day of Qiyamah but one might mistaken it for the day of Qiyamah if they are not attentive.  This day is the day of reappearance of Imam Mahdi, it is not a cheerful day for when he will appear, there will be only 2 options, to believe or to die, much like what happened to people during Noah time. In Quran we are called children of those who were carried by the Ark. We are the children of the believers who entered the Ark. This is why he is in hiding, to give us the deserved chance to use the good in us to do good to the next generations by producing a mo'min.

Justice should be understood in the scope of Quran and Sunnah.

Waalaikum Salaam

Thank you.

Edited by iDevonian, 19 May 2013 - 12:14 AM.

[Rorschach]

.InshAllah., on 18 May 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

The above a pretty obvious, but I state them because some people seem unable to grasp the obvious.

Wow. Didn't realise it was obvious to shut up, stop asking questions and just believe. If you'd told me that earlier, I wouldn't have expended much energy in making sense of a fairy tale.

Apparently, all the warfare and death that will occur on such a global landscape will result in a healthy, perfect world. Who will be employed to mop the blood and bury the multitude of corpses? Who will be employed to remedy the damaged rural environment and urban structures? Will the Mehdi spare all the skilled disbelievers? What if they refuse? Enslavement? Oh, sorry, I'm not supposed to ask questions. I just need to mindlessly repeat the phrase "divine justice" and be reassured that everything will work out just fine...

[PureEthics]

Rorschach, on 19 May 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

Wow. Didn't realise it was obvious to shut up, stop asking questions and just believe. If you'd told me that earlier, I wouldn't have expended much energy in making sense of a fairy tale.

Apparently, all the warfare and death that will occur on such a global landscape will result in a healthy, perfect world. Who will be employed to mop the blood and bury the multitude of corpses? Who will be employed to remedy the damaged rural environment and urban structures? Will the Mehdi spare all the skilled disbelievers? What if they refuse? Enslavement? Oh, sorry, I'm not supposed to ask questions. I just need to mindlessly repeat the phrase "divine justice" and be reassured that everything will work out just fine...

What are you talking about? Where are you getting your facts from? Clearly you have no clue. What warfare? Its not like the world is going to be worse than it is now, with all the killings all over the world. The only thing is, is that as there always have been enemies of the imams, there will be many trying to kill him when he arrives. That is pretty much the only "war" that will take place, and avenging justice on those who are clearly are below human beings ie dictators/kings/killers...Let me tell you something, if man has achieved all of this since day one, just because there will be an imam ruling, you dont think we can make the world a even better place? LOL, you think once imam mahdi comes its like going back to the old ages or something? Its not like all the things we have achieved as a humankind will go to waste or be destroyed. This notion of a world war that will take place is wrong and false. However, us as a mankind standing up to help in any way possible, especially the followers, is true.The world is going to be better than it is today, I dont know where your getting ideas about  the damage of rural areas and such. Your trying to make any excuse as possible to negate the notion of imam mahdi's purpose. Please think alittle bit.

[.InshAllah.]

Rorschach, on 19 May 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

Wow. Didn't realise it was obvious to shut up, stop asking questions and just believe. If you'd told me that earlier, I wouldn't have expended much energy in making sense of a fairy tale.

You can ask questions.  Your problem is that you confuse questions with objections.  I'm saying that nothing you have said is an objection to belief in Imam Mehdi [ajfs]

[Rorschach]

.InshAllah., on 21 May 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

I'm saying that nothing you have said is an objection to belief in Imam Mehdi [ajfs]

You're lying. I've been forming valid objections in question form based off of what has been written in the authentic historical records about the Mehdi and what is to come when He shall rise. In that sense, the entire doctrine of Mahdiism is derived from these sources. So if there exist loose ends and incoherencies in the doctrine, and there are a plethora of them, then the character of the Mehdi is put under doubt. You can't have the prophecies being internally haywire and haphazard, and exclude the Mehdi himself from His own actions. This is senseless.

[PureEthics]

Rorschach, on 21 May 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

You're lying. I've been forming valid objections in question form based off of what has been written in the authentic historical records about the Mehdi and what is to come when He shall rise. In that sense, the entire doctrine of Mahdiism is derived from these sources. So if there exist loose ends and incoherencies in the doctrine, and there are a plethora of them, then the character of the Mehdi is put under doubt. You can't have the prophecies being internally haywire and haphazard, and exclude the Mehdi himself from His own actions. This is senseless.

From your posts so far about Imam Mahdis appearance, there is nothing the same from traditions to your words. Your saying what you perceive it to be. I dont think you also realize, hadiths are not set in stone. Meaning, they are not incumbent to be true or come true, or are they made to be taken literal. A sahih hadith can be wrong and a weak hadith can be true. This isnt sunnism. I kindly request, when you are objecting a "doctrine" or "idea" of imam mahdi please post evidence for your claim or state its your own assumption.

[.InshAllah.]

Rorschach, on 21 May 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

You're lying. I've been forming valid objections in question form based off of what has been written in the authentic historical records about the Mehdi and what is to come when He shall rise. In that sense, the entire doctrine of Mahdiism is derived from these sources. So if there exist loose ends and incoherencies in the doctrine, and there are a plethora of them, then the character of the Mehdi is put under doubt. You can't have the prophecies being internally haywire and haphazard, and exclude the Mehdi himself from His own actions. This is senseless.

No offense but everything you have written is completely worthless.  Unfortunately you have difficulty making a logical argument, so your posts tend to be wordy rambles devoid of logical structure.

[Rorschach]

PureEthics, on 21 May 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

From your posts so far about Imam Mahdis appearance, there is nothing the same from traditions to your words. Your saying what you perceive it to be. I dont think you also realize, hadiths are not set in stone. Meaning, they are not incumbent to be true or come true, or are they made to be taken literal. A sahih hadith can be wrong and a weak hadith can be true. This isnt sunnism. I kindly request, when you are objecting a "doctrine" or "idea" of imam mahdi please post evidence for your claim or state its your own assumption.

Right. According to you, any narration of which I dispute and extrapolate further questioning upon is an automatic fabrication. I question the whole corpus of texts. Therefore, again according to you, the entire concept is a fabrication. It's not like you or anyone has indicated my socalled "literalism" and corrected me. Every believer in the Mehdi hasn't an iota of His purpose in reality.

.InshAllah., on 21 May 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

No offense but everything you have written is completely worthless.  Unfortunately you have difficulty making a logical argument, so your posts tend to be wordy rambles devoid of logical structure.

What is illogical about my argument? Nothing. Define what you mean, or you're just insulting.

[.InshAllah.]

What's illogical about your arguments is what's illogical about all illogical arguments:  either the premises are flawed, or the conclusions dont follow from the premises.

[Rorschach]

.InshAllah., on 21 May 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

What's illogical about your arguments is what's illogical about all illogical arguments:  either the premises are flawed, or the conclusions dont follow from the premises.

Yeah, I understand the definition of "illogical," thanks. You're not explaining what it is that is flawed and contrary to logic. You just repeat yourself like an automated loop machine.

[PureEthics]

Rorschach, on 21 May 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

Right. According to you, any narration of which I dispute and extrapolate further questioning upon is an automatic fabrication. I question the whole corpus of texts. Therefore, again according to you, the entire concept is a fabrication. It's not like you or anyone has indicated my socalled "literalism" and corrected me. Every believer in the Mehdi hasn't an iota of His purpose in reality.



What is illogical about my argument? Nothing. Define what you mean, or you're just insulting.

right... what ever you say buddy. So far I have not seen any correlation between what you spew out of your mouth to the hadiths you are trying to compare. It isnt really questions, its more like you taking a hadith, stretching it, adding your own assumptions to it and presenting it as a fact. All your posts mention how its a contradiction/lie/not logic, yet I havnt seen any proof to what you say. Your proofs is basically your own interpretation followed by your own little understanding. Then you go on to attack how its so stupid and what not, using big vocabulary words to make you look smart.

[.InshAllah.]

I dealt with some of them in my first post in this thread.  One example is you argue from your belief that we dont know how Imam Mehdi will be able to rule the world to the conclusion that it isn't possible.  Clearly this is a poor argument.

[Rorschach]

Look here. Even a scholar has to contradict the sources when trapped in a corner.

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Zurara reports the hadith from Imam Sadiq, who said:
"The Qa'im must live an invisible existence." I asked for the reason. He said: "He is afraid of being killed," and pointed to his stomach.

Quote

Dr. Jalali: What would be wrong with the Imam suffering death in the path of reforming society and disseminating the true religion and defending the oppressed? Is his blood more dear than that of his forefathers who also suffered martyrdom in defending the religion of God? My question is why at all should he be afraid of being killed?

Mr. Hoshyar: The Imam of the Age, like his forefathers, is not afraid of being killed.

http://www.al-islam....ontl/Chap-7.htm

.InshAllah., on 21 May 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

I dealt with some of them in my first post in this thread.  One example is you argue from your belief that we dont know how Imam Mehdi will be able to rule the world to the conclusion that it isn't possible.  Clearly this is a poor argument.

Of course it isn't possible. If you can't answer simple questions of pragmatism, which I've provided plenty in my own thread, it proves that this belief is not grounded on reality, but pure fantasy.

Edited by Rorschach, 21 May 2013 - 02:12 PM.

[.InshAllah.]

This is a good example of what Im talking about.  Because we have a hadith that says x and a scholar that says not-x, the the belief in Imam Mehdi is flawed.  What???

Thats all that needs to be said really, but I'll do you a favour and expand on that.

Hadith are not infallible.  The hadith literature contains contradictions, lies and forgeries etc.  Everyone knows this.  It applies to hadith on all topics, not just on Imam Mehdi.  Even if a hadith has an authentic chain, its still not completely definitive so can be rejected if there are good reasons.  If there are no good reasons to reject it and a scholar does, then the scholar has made a mistake.  Noone believes that scholars are infalible.  Having said all that there is no contradiction between the two quotes if you understand that Imam Mehdi can be fearless of death per se, but fearful of the consequences of his death - if he dies too soon, then divine justice will not be established on earth.

Rorschach, on 21 May 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

Of course it isn't possible. If you can't answer simple questions of pragmatism, which I've provided plenty in my own thread, it proves that this belief is not grounded on reality, but pure fantasy.

Point 2. in my first post refutes the 'plenty' that you have provided in 2 sentences.

Edited by .InshAllah., 21 May 2013 - 02:25 PM.

[Rorschach]

.InshAllah., on 21 May 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Hadith are not infallible.  The hadith literature contains contradictions, lies and forgeries etc.  Everyone knows this.  It applies to hadith on all topics, not just on Imam Mehdi.  Even if a hadith has an authentic chain, its still not completely definitive so can be rejected if there are good reasons.  If there are no good reasons to reject it and a scholar does, then the scholar has made a mistake.  Noone believes that scholars are infalible.

Rorschach, on 21 May 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

Right. According to you, any narration of which I dispute and extrapolate further questioning upon is an automatic fabrication. I question the whole corpus of texts. Therefore, again according to you, the entire concept is a fabrication.

.InshAllah., on 21 May 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Having said all that there is no contradiction between the two quotes if you understand that Imam Mehdi can be fearless of death per se, but fearful of the consequences of his death - if he dies too soon, then divine justice will not be established on earth.

No, InshAllah. He is invisible because he is afraid. Read the narration again.

.InshAllah., on 21 May 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Point 2. in my first post refutes the 'plenty' that you have provided in 2 sentences.

Point 2 basically asserts that whatever of the many inexplicable and incoherent gaps that exist in the doctrine are somehow magically compensated by the omnipotence of God. Of course, this is completely baseless.
If God tuned human psychology to submit to the governance of Mehdi as a whole, He would negate freewill. Or if God exposed whatever one does in the privacy of ones own home, He would be contradicting His own law, enforcing hypocrisy and completely interfering with freewill. If this is the case, then neither Judgment Day or the Mehdi is necessary.

[.InshAllah.]

Rorschach, on 21 May 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

Right. According to you, any narration of which I dispute and extrapolate further questioning upon is an automatic fabrication. I question the whole corpus of texts. Therefore, again according to you, the entire concept is a fabrication.

Please stop making stuff up

Quote

No, InshAllah. He is invisible because he is afraid. Read the narration again.

I didnt deny that.  read my reply again.

Quote

Point 2 basically asserts that whatever of the many inexplicable and incoherent gaps that exist in the doctrine are somehow magically compensated by the omnipotence of God. Of course, this is completely baseless.

Inexplicable, yes.  Incoherent, no, and you havent shown any incoherence.

Quote

If God tuned human psychology to submit to the governance of Mehdi as a whole, He would negate freewill. Or if God exposed whatever one does in the privacy of ones own home, He would be contradicting His own law, enforcing hypocrisy and completely interfering with freewill. If this is the case, then neither Judgment Day or the Mehdi is necessary.

Lets write out your argument

1.  If God tunes human psychology to Imam Mehdi then He negates free will
2.  If God exposes what one does in his own home then he negates free will etc etc
Therefore
3. Imam Mehdi is not necessary

These arent getting any better.  How on earth do you derive 3 from 1 and 2?  Not necessary for what exactly?

Maybe you think that if God has mercy on certain disbelievers and opens their hearts to Imam Mehdi, then Imam Mehdi is not needed for their guidance.  Some points on this:

i. Assuming he is not needed for their guidance, he still may be needed for the guidance of others.
ii.  The 'tuning' here is ambiguous.  It can be understood in a way that undermines free will or in a way that doesnt.  If we understand it on the former interpretation, then (i) will still be the case, as Imam Mehdi may be needed for the guidance of others in a way that doesnt undermine free will.  Hence it is wrong to say that he is not necessary.  It will simply be the case that the Imam will need Gods help in turning the world to him (nothing new here)
iii.  If the 'tuning' is understood in a way that doesnt undermine free will, then the premise of your argument is flawed.  So either way, your argument is flawed.

Edited by .InshAllah., 21 May 2013 - 04:40 PM.

[Khadim uz Zahra]

Propaganda_of_the_Deed, on 17 May 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

However, arguably the earliest claim of the Mahdi had been by Mukhtar al Thaqafi (he led a failed revolt against Ibn al Zubayr in 685-687 during the second fitnah) and is notable for having apparently slain some of the murderers of Imam Hussain (a.s), although unlike the romantic and idealised view some have of him, he was said to be a mere opportunist, and moreover was fighting on behalf of one of Imam Ali's other sons, Muhammad al-Hanafiyah - it is this man, whom Mukhtar alleged was the Mahdi, and even went as far to state that he was his wazir (which draws parallels with later concepts regarding the 12th Imam al-Mahdi, who is also said to have had a group of representatives with whom he had direct communication with). It is also said that the idea of the mahdi was not attested to before the time of Mukhtar (The First Dynasty of Islam: The Umayyad Caliphate 661-750 2nd Ed. by G.R. Hawting, page 51).

That would be one view regarding Mukhtar and his revolt, yes, but portraying it as Gospel truth is just plain wrong because there is another version to his story. But, of course, this thread is not about Mukhtar and, so, I won't go into details. I did, however, find it fitting that the alternative at least be mentioned.

[Gypsy]

Rorschach, on 19 May 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

Apparently, all the warfare and death that will occur on such a global landscape will result in a healthy, perfect world. Who will be employed to mop the blood and bury the multitude of corpses? Who will be employed to remedy the damaged rural environment and urban structures? Will the Mehdi spare all the skilled disbelievers? What if they refuse? Enslavement? Oh, sorry, I'm not supposed to ask questions. I just need to mindlessly repeat the phrase "divine justice" and be reassured that everything will work out just fine...

I think you are expecting too much out of some very vague prophecy about HIS appearance. The event has not yet happened so no one can give you diminutive details. We can speculate all we want, but we will never ever know, because chances are we would all be dead centuries before his arrival. I also think you should keep in mind that his appearance is among the last signs before the day of judgment. This would probably limit the nation building activity.

[Rorschach]

.InshAllah., on 21 May 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

I didnt deny that.  read my reply again.

If you don't deny that the Mehdi is afraid of emerging due to fear of being killed, then how is it logical to twist it to make it look like he fears the "repercussions" or "consequences" of His murder? The narration clearly states that He is absent because he is afraid of being killed, that's the reason. You're adding your own made up reason that isn't stated in order to justify it.

Here's a thought. Why would the Mehdi be absent due to fear of death anyway? The divine prophecies predetermine His success. So why is He afraid? This is nonsense.

.InshAllah., on 21 May 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Inexplicable, yes.  Incoherent, no, and you havent shown any incoherence.

Not incoherent? If you were confident of that, you would've responded to the logical inconsistencies of the concept presented in my thread.

.InshAllah., on 21 May 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Lets write out your argument

1.  If God tunes human psychology to Imam Mehdi then He negates free will
2.  If God exposes what one does in his own home then he negates free will etc etc
Therefore
3. Imam Mehdi is not necessary

These arent getting any better.  How on earth do you derive 3 from 1 and 2?  Not necessary for what exactly?

He isn't necessary for governing an "Islamic" society, since God will either turn all hearts toward divine law of Islam or force people into a state of submission. That is the only way the Mehdi will be able to establish a global society founded on divine laws. But, in such cases, the Mehdi wouldn't be needed anyway, he'd be unnecessary, because God is manipulating His creation to His own ends. So it is a paradox in itself.

If God won't orchestrate 1 or 2, explain how the Mehdi will:

#1. Deal with "infidels" that are peaceful - how will he integrate their own political and social persuasions into His own global divine system? Or will He just commit genocide?

#2. Keep an eye on every single individual on the face of the world; E.g. stop any form of religiously / socially illegal act performed in private and spread implicitly? I posed a particular question about illicit material posted via technology in my thread. Will the Mehdi confiscate the video camera, Internet, mobile phones, basically most forms of technology accessible to people?
If so, how will that affect the economy in national trade? Traditions say that resources will be abundant to the extent that wealth shall be shared equally. But, hold on. Wouldn't that result in hyperinflation and a stifled economic situation? Wouldn't trade be on an all time low, since no one would have an incentive to earn, create or produce any longer? Will God miraculously churn out industry on its own?  

Another challenge is to say who holds monopoly over what is moral or immoral? If the Mehdi will accommodate other religions and ideologies, like the Prophet did, in His system, what will essentially change? Nothing at all. If the Mehdi forces His policies down the throat of the masses, all hell shall eventually break loose and it won't be the just, peaceful and prosperous world as promised.  

.InshAllah., on 21 May 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

ii.  The 'tuning' here is ambiguous.  It can be understood in a way that undermines free will or in a way that doesnt.  If we understand it on the former interpretation, then (i) will still be the case, as Imam Mehdi may be needed for the guidance of others in a way that doesnt undermine free will.  Hence it is wrong to say that he is not necessary.  It will simply be the case that the Imam will need Gods help in turning the world to him (nothing new here)

You're absolutely brilliant at manipulating arguments with superficial, and baseless, twists. Sophistry at its finest. So, let's see. Some people may need guidance from the Mehdi but, caveat, that can't always happen without God re-wiring their psychology. Ok. That actually means some people shall be psychologically manipulated into needing guidance - which isn't real. And, yes, it negates freewill.

What about the rest who don't want the sort of guidance that Mehdi prescribes in His divine manifesto? If God isn't going to deliberately toy with their heads, how will the Mehdi achieve hamonious social cohesion and justice with all sorts of ideas and beliefs floating around, hand in hand with freedom?

What is this "guidance" that will attract some people to His government? Anything that we don't know already?

Gypsy, on 21 May 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

I think you are expecting too much out of some very vague prophecy about HIS appearance. The event has not yet happened so no one can give you diminutive details. We can speculate all we want, but we will never ever know, because chances are we would all be dead centuries before his arrival. I also think you should keep in mind that his appearance is among the last signs before the day of judgment. This would probably limit the nation building activity.

Why do the Shia scream for His hastening and early arrival if:

#1 - He has an appointed time mentioned in the texts?
#2 - He can't logically emerge before all the prophecies leading up to His emergence have been fulfilled?
#3 - The Shia do not know what He will do in pragmatic terms?

Seriously, how do you believe in something that is unintelligible? It's foolishness.

[peace seeker]

if you believe in God, then you will automatically believe that this God, Al Qahar , will win in the end, and that His servants will win. As also described in quran.

hastening of Victory of God !! Victory of Allah !! Nasr Allah. What can be better in this life than the Victory of Allah???

focus more on Allah and your own contribution to this Victory

and we can never be intelligent enough to even come close to understanding Allah's Plans and the hows and whys, except (precisely) as much as Allah allows us to understand. Our job is to surrender to Allah and worship Him.

[.InshAllah.]

Rorschach, on 21 May 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

If you don't deny that the Mehdi is afraid of emerging due to fear of being killed, then how is it logical to twist it to make it look like he fears the "repercussions" or "consequences" of His murder? The narration clearly states that He is absent because he is afraid of being killed, that's the reason. You're adding your own made up reason that isn't stated in order to justify it.

The same way a father might be afraid of dying because he cant support his family.  So we can say that he's afraid of death.  But we can also legitimately in other contexts say that he isnt afraid of death, if he isnt scared of the physical end of his life (he isnt scared of any pain he might suffer, or of the ''unknown'' etc).  In any case this is irrelevant, because your whole objection here is that some scholar supposedly contradicted a hadith.  Who cares?

Quote

Here's a thought. Why would the Mehdi be absent due to fear of death anyway? The divine prophecies predetermine His success. So why is He afraid? This is nonsense.

If he reappears when the time is not right then he may be killed and not achieve success.  He doesnt want to fail, so he is in occultation until the time is right to reappear.  He is in occultation because he fears being killed (in the sense explained above)

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Not incoherent? If you were confident of that, you would've responded to the logical inconsistencies of the concept presented in my thread.

Yes I have nothing better to do than go through every one of your incoherent ramblings.  So the fact that I only took the time to address one of them must mean that I have no answer.

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He isn't necessary for governing an "Islamic" society, since God will either turn all hearts toward divine law of Islam or force people into a state of submission. That is the only way the Mehdi will be able to establish a global society founded on divine laws. But, in such cases, the Mehdi wouldn't be needed anyway, he'd be unnecessary, because God is manipulating His creation to His own ends. So it is a paradox in itself.

But if God turns hearts toward divine law through Imam Mehdi then Imam Mehdi plays and important role in the guidance of mankind.

Quote

If God won't orchestrate 1 or 2, explain how the Mehdi will:

You're confusing questions with objections again.  I already explained that not knowing the details of exactly how Imam will rule does nothing to the undermine the coherence of the belief in his existence

Quote

You're absolutely brilliant at manipulating arguments with superficial, and baseless, twists. Sophistry at its finest. So, let's see. Some people may need guidance from the Mehdi but, caveat, that can't always happen without God re-wiring their psychology. Ok. That actually means some people shall be psychologically manipulated into needing guidance - which isn't real. And, yes, it negates freewill.

In your mind, if God removes barriers to misguidance and opens people hearts to guidance then thats an evil thing.  'Manipulation' and 'toying'.  Okay.

Lets assume this negates the free will of some people (evil people).  If this is necessary for the establishment of global justice then good!  Let it happen.  God has destroyed peoples in the past for their evil acts.  No big deal.

Quote

What about the rest who don't want the sort of guidance that Mehdi prescribes in His divine manifesto? If God isn't going to deliberately toy with their heads, how will the Mehdi achieve hamonious social cohesion and justice with all sorts of ideas and beliefs floating around, hand in hand with freedom?

Confusing questions with objections again.

Quote

What is this "guidance" that will attract some people to His government? Anything that we don't know already?

And again.

I think part of your problem is a failure of imagination.  You cant imagine how something can happen, so it cant.  I can imagine Imam Mehdi winning over scientists by offering solutions to the hardest scientific puzzles (eg reconciling general relativity with quantum mechanics).  And winning over mathematicians similarly, and geologists (dig in area x and you will find treasure y).  He will be with Jesus [a] whom I can imagine will win over most Christians.  His armies might be outnumbered, but they were outnumbered in the past and with Gods help they had success etc etc

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Why do the Shia scream for His hastening and early arrival if:

#1 - He has an appointed time mentioned in the texts?
#2 - He can't logically emerge before all the prophecies leading up to His emergence have been fulfilled?
#3 - The Shia do not know what He will do in pragmatic terms?

Seriously, how do you believe in something that is unintelligible? It's foolishness.

I already dealt with this objection in the other thread.