60 replies to this topic

[iere]

Godhead is in the Bible, not the Trinity.

[placid]

Hi Iere

You are right, ---and we will get to that later, hopefully before long, but I keep responding to other posts first.



Hi IbnSohan,

I Thought I might as well respond to this as well because it is another negativism, that has no substance:
Quote from Post 47:
The Jews say, 'Ezra is the Son of God'; the Christians say, 'The Messiah is the Son of God.' That is the utterance of their mouths, conforming with the unbelievers before them. God assail them! How they are perverted!
9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old.

Response: --- After seeing above that the Jews made false statements about the Scriptures, why is it surprising that they said this wrong, too?
There is no place in the OT where is says Ezra was any special son of God. --- If they had said, ‘Ezra was their Messiah,’ it might have been understood better, as Ezra was the Scribe that, along with Zerubbabel, led the children of Israel back to Jerusalem after the 70 year captivity in Babylon (they sometimes referred to a notable Spiritual leader as a Messiah), and Ezra restored their Worship of God, so he was great in their sight  

Quote: and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths.

--- Yes, the Christians say “The Messiah, Jesus, is the son of God.”
The word Messiah is used some 8 times in the Quran referring to Jesus.
The title ‘Son of God’ was given to Him by the angel Gabriel in Luke  when the angel announced the virgin birth to Mary. --- Luke 1:
26Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
²⁷ to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.
²⁸ And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
²⁹ But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.
³⁰ Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
³¹ And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall CALL His name Jesus.
³² He will be great, and will be CALLED the Son of the Highest;

34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
³⁵ And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

--- So, you see, it was the same angel Gabriel that is recorded in the Quran that visited Mary, --- that said Jesus would be ‘CALLED’ the Son of God. --- Let’s check what it says in Surah 3:
42 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God hath chosen thee and purified thee - chosen thee above the women of all nations.
45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;
46 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
47 She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!.

--- I hope you notice in these passages that God brought a ‘New Being’ into the world, by a virgin birth, ---  a human child, but one who was indwelt by the Word, as it says in 45. --- “A Word from Him (God), his name will be Christ Jesus.”
--- And the angel said, “He will be CALLED the Son of God.” Since God brought Him into being, can God not call Jesus His Unique Son?


Placid

[placid]

(To continue)

--- Jesus came as a Servant, and as God’s Servant, the next verse says:
3:48 "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel, --- (God revealed this wisdom through His intellect.)
49 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

--- (Twice it mentions Jesus as a Sign through the miracles, and through His teaching, --- Then it goes on to say:
50 "(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.”
51 "It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."
--- (Another Sign in fulfilling the Law, --- and ‘the Way that is straight.’)

52 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims. (Surrendered ones.)
53 "Our Lord (God)! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Apostle (Jesus); then write us down among those who bear witness."
--- And then we come again to this verse:
55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection.
56 "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
--- (This compares to the verse I used before from Surah 5:
86 But those who reject Faith and disbelieve our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.
--- (So what do Muslims believe about following these Signs of God?)

--- Now you believe that the same angel Gabriel gave these revelations to and through Muhammad, do you not? ---Then understand too, that it was Gabriel who said, Jesus would be CALLED the Son of God.
From then on He was called the Son of God, although He usually called Himself the Son of Man. --- Also, the NT was delivered to people 600 years before Muhammad came with this message that you read above, showing the ministry of God through Jesus, in the NT.
--- Therefore, any negative things that are said against the Message of the Scriptures and the Signs, --- could be filed away along with the false statements that the Jews made, could they not?

Also with the verses you listed against God having a son. --- Everyone knows that God can bring into being, what He desires, and can call that one His Son, the same as the first Adam was called the Son of God.
3:59 Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.
--- Adam was created of dust. But Jesus (the last Adam, 1 Corinthians 15:45) was born of Mary, --- But God said, “Be” and He was.

Again the announcement of Jesus is recorded in Surah 19:
20 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21 He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."
--- (Notice again that Jesus was a ‘Sign’ from God and an act of Mercy from God, because Jesus was the long awaited Messiah.)

Then it continues with these verses about Jesus in Surah 19:
30 He said: "I am indeed a servant of God: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
31 "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
32 "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
33 "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
--- Who made this statement of truth? --- God, through the angel Gabriel.
--- Who believes this truth? --- The Christians.
--- Who vainly disputes this truth? --- The unbelievers.
And it follows with this confirming verse:
35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
--- (It is out of the ordinary and below the dignity of God (in fact, impossible) that He should produce a Son, --- BUT Glory be to Him.
When He decides, or determines a matter, He only says to it, “Be,” and it is. --- (Notice this verse again)
21 He (Gabriel) said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': --- It is a matter (so) decreed."
--- So God ordained that Mary would have a Son, and Gabriel said He would be CALLED the Son of God.


Placid

[IbnSohan]

Say: 'People of the Book! Come now to a word common between us and you, that we serve none but God, and that we associate not aught with Him, and do not some of us take others as Lords, apart from God.' And if they turn their backs, say: 'Bear witness that we are Muslims.'

Placid, the title son of God whither used literally or otherwise, is not allowed for us as Muslims, Allah made it very clear in His last revelation that He dose not like it. I believe in what Quran said that the title son of God is man made and I do follow God Command in Quran of not using a man made title that was made by liars.

There is no capital letters in Arabic, there is no Sign, and no Word in Quran.

We are not in competition, this is a very disturbing thought, as if Allah is not able to make a big enough heaven for His servants, Muslims do not feel they should compete for goods on earth either. We should believe that Allah will provide us all.

Prophet Essa Alyhi Assalam , peace be upon him, is one of auli al'azm prophets, his birth was miraculous, many miracles happened on his hands by the will and might of Allah.  Calling him a true servant of Allah (abdullah) is the highest honourable title in Islam that can be given to anyone!

Mary pointed to the child then; but they said, 'How shall we speak to one who is still in the cradle, a little child?'
Faasharat ilayhi qaloo kayfa nukallimu man kana fee almahdi sabiyyan

He said, 'Lo, I am God's servant; God has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet.
Qala innee AAabdu Allahi ataniya alkitaba wajaAAalanee nabiyyan  (

[placid]

Thank you,

I would like to conclude this subject of, ‘Jesus, being CALLED the Son of God,’ --- and get back to the topic in which we will discuss His position.

There may have been one reason why the new Muslims did not want to promote Jesus as the Son of God, --- because there were some 360 idols in the Kabah, the House of Prayer. --- Many of these were sons and daughters of gods, --- so, to introduce one more Son of God may have been confusing, --- However, they had the NT with them so the Gospel was there, for those who would read and believe it.

However, it is believed that after some time the intellectuals were rejecting the Christian doctrines and trying to discredit Jesus as the Savior and Messiah. --- This was not based on the Scriptures, or on the Quran but by a general rejection, of the former Scriptures.
The confusion over tri-unity, even among Christians has caused controversy for years, --- however, many Muslims have been taught to follow a false conclusion that Christians worship three Gods.

I believe that, on an ‘Islamic, Christian, and Jewish discussion Forum’ like this, --- we should be able to present what we believe from the Scriptures, and compare and discuss things we don’t understand.
When I came on Shiachat about 8 years ago, I said, I wanted to learn about Islam, and a Moderator at that time said, “If you want to learn about Islam, read the Quran,” --- I had a copy of the Pickthall Translation, which has the history of Muhammad and an intro to each Surah, and the approximate time it was written. I read them all and have been studying them since.
I was pleased to find so much OT Scripture, and so much of the Gospel message in it.
My disappointment was that Muslims don’t seem to believe the Quran by itself, --- but have moved on to other teaching.

I read some of the new philosophy from the second link you gave, which said:  
Quote: “All others whosoever and whatsoever they may be, move within a limited framework decreed for them by Allah, who has destined everything. "
"Allah has set a measure for everything ". (Surah al Talaq, 65: 3 etc.)
This is the universal law which applies to man also. As such his power is limited, but still he can choose his way of life within the framework ordained for him. Allah wants him to use his discretion and determine his future, whether good or bad, himself. --- End of quote.
--- Note: --- the verse 65:3, --- is from the Surah “Divorce,” and refers to the relationship of men and women.

This ‘universal law’ philosophy is not a teaching from either the Bible or the Quran and must be some New Age doctrine. --- It is a rejection of Faith in God first, and one’s obedience in doing His ‘good works.’
--- Therefore, I won’t read the other links. --- I have learned about Islam from the Quran, and I enjoy comparing it to the former Scriptures that Gabriel said, were ‘confirmed as true’ in the Quran in Surah 3:3.

I could suggest to you, “To understand the Gospel, read the New Testament and get to know what it says.” --- If you haven’t read it, you are likely going on what others say, which is only good for controversy, not for furthering anyone’s understanding.

It is interesting to note that in the Book of Acts, after Jesus had ascended to heaven, the Apostle Peter referred to Him twice as ‘God’s Servant,’ --- which He was. Acts 3:
13  The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.
25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’
²⁶ To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”


Placid

[placid]

Now I want to continue from Post 45:
In adding precept upon precept and line upon line, we have established some principles from the Garden of Eden. --- And the first man, Adam.
He was created from dust and water, and was sustained by fruit which is mainly water, so it can be called a ’water body.’
Adam was created by God, so he could be CALLED a Son of God.

I had asked in the beginning, --- “Who was Melchizedek?”
However, Adam could not have been the person of Melchizedek, because it says of Melchizedek in Hebrews 7:
3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

But how then was Melchizedek like Adam, to say he was “made like the Son of God”?
--- This is where Christians usually say that Melchizedek must have been the “Preincarnate Christ.” --- Incarnate means, ‘embodied in flesh,’ or, ‘in human form.’ --- So they would be saying that, Melchizedek ‘in human form’ (‘pre-incarnate’) would refer to the “Being” that would eventually indwell Jesus.

I will leave it here so that we can ponder this some more, --- “Who was Melchizedek?”


Placid

[IbnSohan]

I am sorry, as long as you hold on the "son of God" title, and enforcing it upon Adam as well as Jesus, then allow me to drop out of this discussion.

[placid]

The Title, ‘Son of God,’ is in Scripture and is no offense to anyone because the New Testament is based on the Father-Son relationship, which introduces the “Family of God.”
The basis of the Gospel Message is Faith in God, and receiving God’s provision for our Salvation, through Jesus Christ. It says in John 1:
12 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become 'children of God,' to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
--- This speaks of a Spiritual birth that comes from God, so that by Faith and acceptance of God’s plan of Salvation through Jesus Christ, we are “adopted” into the ‘Family of God.’
--- So this is something we can discuss later, but we have to establish the basics first.


So to continue with Melchizedek. --- It says in Hebrews 7:
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, --- first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

Then it goes on to identify Christ as the Son of God, in 5:
5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He (God) who said to Him:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.”
6 As He also says in another place:
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

So this is another mystery.
So it speaks of Christ as being another High Priest, not after the order of Aaron, but after the order of Melchizedek.

Melchizedek came first and established the order of the High Priest of ‘The Most High God,’ --- and Christ fills that role, and it says, “Christ” will be a High Priest forever.
--- Could Jesus have been Melchizedek?
No, because Jesus had a beginning and end on earth, did He not?


Placid

[placid]

To continue with the mystery:
--- We see that Adam and Christ Jesus were CALLED the first Adam and the last Adam. --- Also CALLED the first man and the second Man in 1 Corinthians 15:
45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust (in our natural bodies), --- we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man (In a new Spiritual body, before we can enter heaven).
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

--- The first Adam was made of dust (a separate personality), and was made perfect, but failed to fulfill God’s purpose, --- and became the first ‘man’ ‘of the earth,’ --- by a physical and Spiritual change.
The last Adam, the Lord from heaven, was a different Personality that came from heaven, but was born in a flesh and blood body on earth. --- This was the same type of body that Adam had after his fall from grace, --- caused by his disobedience to God.
--- Therefore there was separation between God and the first Adam. --- The separation was not only as a result of Adam’s disobedience to God, --- but, since the first ‘life support system’ in Adam was the Holy Spirit of God. --- When Adam’s disobedience to God separated him from the state of holiness in the Garden, --- he was not only removed from the perfect environment for a perfect body, --- but the Holy Spirit of God had to be withdrawn from him.

So Adam was given a changed physical body with a circulatory blood system, as the new ‘life support system,’ like the animals already had. --- So Adam was reduced from his ‘identification with the angels,’ to his ‘identifying with the animals.’ --- And this is the ‘flesh and blood body’ of the earth.
Because the natural body was separated from God’s holiness, each man had to become repentant of sin and be obedient to God, in order to be forgiven for sin. --- The Scripture says, “For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.”

47 Says, “The last Adam was the Lord from heaven.”

--- Let’s compare this to what is recorded in Surah 3:
45 Pickthall:  (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).

45 Yusuf Ali: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

45 Hilali Khan:  (Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah."


It says in 1 Corinthians 15:47 --- the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
And it says in Surah 3:45 --- the Messiah, Christ, was a Word from heaven.
--- So, how do we understand this?  


Placid

[IbnSohan]

At that, Zechariah called upon his Lord, saying, "My Lord, grant me from Yourself a good offspring. Indeed, You are the Hearer of supplication." So the angels called him while he was standing in prayer in the chamber, "Indeed, Allah gives you good tidings of John, confirming a word from Allah and [who will be] honorable (the word is syed which means lord), abstaining [from women], and a prophet from among the righteous."

[placid]

To continue from Above:

It says in 1 Corinthians 15:47 --- the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
And it says in Surah 3: 45 --- the Messiah, Christ, was a Word from heaven.
If we consider the versions above from Surah 3:45 we see the full description of who it was who came down from heaven:

Pickthall: A Word from Allah; whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary.

Yusuf Ali: A Word from God; His name will be Christ Jesus (the name Christ, means Messiah, the name Jesus, means Savior); held in honor in the world (as a Prophet, Messenger, and Messiah); --- and the hereafter, --- (which refers to the Word returning to God, and continuing to be ‘nearest to God,’ --- seated at His right hand.)  

Hilali Khan: Allah gives glad tidings of a Word (“Be!” and He was! --- [This refers to the Logos, the ‘creative power of God,’ who can simply respond to God’s word, --- “Be!” --- and it is.] --- Who was called Jesus, the son of Mary) who came from Allah. His name will be the Messiah.

So, we see that --- The Word, ‘came from God,’ was ‘honored in the world,’ and ‘honored in the hereafter’.
That means that the Word had a ‘past’ with God --- had a ‘presence’ on earth for a time, --- and is having a ‘future,’ which will be forever.

It says in John 1:
1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God.”
--- So, if the Word was with God in the beginning, and will be forever, --- does that not fit the description of Melchizedek?
Hebrews 7:3 --- Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

The Word cannot be seen, so in order to appear on earth He had to have a body to identify as a man in order to converse with Abraham.
He was the King of Righteousness, and the Priest of the Most High God, --- so He established worship, tithing, and sacrificing to God in the time of Abraaham. --- He could not have come in a body of flesh and blood, as there is a beginning and an end to the natural body.
In order to be “Made like the Son of God.” He could identify with the first Son of God, Adam, who had a perfect body in the Garden.
--- So, it would appear that Melchizedek was the Word that came down from heaven in the same type of water body that Adam had in the Garden. --- He was ‘from the beginning,’ and after he established the worship and service of God, the Word took on other roles, which we can check later.

--- So, I believe the conclusion has to be that --- since God is over and above everything, He can do what is His desire to bring people back to Himself. --- So, after the flood it was necessary to establish righteousness and worship, through this One, --- the Word that was sent down, indwelling the special body of Melchizedek.
--- And this was the same Word that later came to indwell the body of Jesus that is referred to in I Corinthians 15, and Surah 3.

.
Placid