44 replies to this topic

[Ali-Reza]

[PurifiedTruth]

[Abu Izrael]

Alawis are not shi'as, they go as far as worshipping Imam Ali ....

Edited by HassoonBazoon, 03 March 2013 - 09:29 PM.

[Ali-Reza]

HassoonBazoon, on 03 March 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:

Alawis are not shi'as, they go as far as worshipping Imam Ali ....

They call all non Sunnis Alawies

[CLynn]

First video -
I am at a loss.  Where is this, Syria?  Why do people pass this on to their children?  How can anyone think this is what God wants?
and if I am correct Shia have been punished throughout history, why?  Simply because they believe that the successorship belongs to the genetic line of Muhammad?
and yet I shouldn't say I am surprised, this kind of fighting went on for ages in Ireland.
surah 4:93 - this is the problem... qualifiers... it should not be ok to take any human life... who defines 'believer'... obviously sunni's do not believe shia's are believers, and vice versa, and the same for whabi's and alawits, etc.... and that's only addressing the muslim populations.
Only God should have the right to determine if one is a believer... only God has the ability to know a man's heart.
Why would God want any human to take another human life, removing any chance of redemption of that soul?  This does not come from God.  God said;
"Thou shalt not kill" ... no qualifiers. Salaam.

[Ali-Reza]

CLynn, on 03 March 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

First video -
I am at a loss.  Where is this, Syria?  Why do people pass this on to their children?  How can anyone think this is what God wants?
and if I am correct Shia have been punished throughout history, why?  Simply because they believe that the successorship belongs to the genetic line of Muhammad?
and yet I shouldn't say I am surprised, this kind of fighting went on for ages in Ireland.
surah 4:93 - this is the problem... qualifiers... it should not be ok to take any human life... who defines 'believer'... obviously sunni's do not believe shia's are believers, and vice versa, and the same for whabi's and alawits, etc.... and that's only addressing the muslim populations.
Only God should have the right to determine if one is a believer... only God has the ability to know a man's heart.
Why would God want any human to take another human life, removing any chance of redemption of that soul?  This does not come from God.  God said;
"Thou shalt not kill" ... no qualifiers. Salaam.

Deuteronomy 17:12

[CLynn]

Ali-Reza, on 03 March 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

Deuteronomy 17:12

Greetings Ali-Reza,

Deuteronomy is the old covenant -
When Jesus came we had moved beyond old testament ways.
Jesus brought the new covenant - the one that I live by.
"Love your brother as yourself"
and I believe by this Jesus meant every other human being... that we are to treat all human beings as we ourselves would want to be treated.
'for in these two commandments
Love God and love others
the whole of the law is fulfilled.'
________________________

³⁶ Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law?
³⁷ Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
³⁸ This is the first and greatest commandment.
³⁹ And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
⁴⁰ On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
These were the words spoken by Jesus.

Edited by CLynn, 03 March 2013 - 11:53 PM.

[PureEthics]

CLynn, on 03 March 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

Greetings Ali-Reza,

Deuteronomy is the old covenant -
When Jesus came we had moved beyond old testament ways.
Jesus brought the new covenant - the one that I live by.
"Love your brother as yourself"
and I believe by this Jesus meant every other human being... that we are to treat all human beings as we ourselves would want to be treated.
'for in these two commandments
Love God and love others
the whole of the law is fulfilled.'
________________________

³⁶ Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law?
³⁷ Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
³⁸ This is the first and great commandment.
³⁹ And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
⁴⁰ On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
These were the words spoken by Jesus.

Why would god bring something and then change it? I thought he is all knowing...

[CLynn]

Greetings Ali-Reza,

I believe God reveals Himself as He needs to be revealed, as we are able to receive Him and His message.
As people change God changes the way in which He relates to us.
As we have evolved so God has been able to raise us to even a higher standard...
thus Jesus.

The Bible spoke of how there were things to come of which man could not yet understand, that would be revealed at the proper time.

Edited by CLynn, 04 March 2013 - 12:06 AM.

[Ali-Reza]

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - Matthew 10:34

I believe that is new testament!

Edited by Ali-Reza, 04 March 2013 - 12:10 AM.

[PureEthics]

CLynn, on 04 March 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

Greetings Ali-Reza,

I believe God reveals Himself as He needs to be revealed, as we are able to receive Him and His message.
As people change God changes the way in which He relates to us.
As we have evolved so God has been able to raise us to even a higher standard...
thus Jesus.

The Bible spoke of how there were things to come of which man could not yet understand, that would be revealed at the proper time.

God doesnt change He is the magnificent. He will not bring new law and forbid the before, otherwise it shows he isnt all knowing and perfect because he didnt know there will be new change in the future. The holy quran was never changed and will never change as the word of God is perfect. It can be used in the present and future.

[CLynn]

Ali-Reza, on 04 March 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - Matthew 10:34

Yes.  Hi again.
Has anyone ever explained this scripture to you before?
Jesus is not saying that He comes to bring division, but that the result of His coming will bring division because some will believe and others will not, and so they will lose having anything in common with one another.
I believe the qur'an teaches a similar thing.
However the Bible does not teach us to pass judgement, it only points out that believing and not believing will cause people to separate.  We are even told to 'come out and be separate', but this in no way gives us permission to pass judgement on others.
It simply means that lightness has no commonality with darkness.  The one who does not follow will feel he is being judged even if he is not, and the one who does follow will not feel comfortable being around the sinner.  I know I am not comfortable being around people who drink, curse, or have loose morals... and those people usually like to accuse me of being self-righteous.  We are different.  The hope is that in setting an example others will see the goodness of a life lived God's way and will want to follow.  We should always be inviting and praying for others to seek redemption from sinful ways.  We are not to give up hope for their souls.
Salaam.

pureethics, on 04 March 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

God doesnt change He is the magnificent. He will not bring new law and forbid the before, otherwise it shows he isnt all knowing and perfect because he didnt know there will be new change in the future. The holy quran was never changed and will never change as the word of God is perfect. It can be used in the present and future.

Greetings pureethics,

Actually the qur'an was constantly being changed by Muhammad and his new revelations.

Salaam..

[Ali-Reza]

CLynn, on 04 March 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

Yes.  Hi again.
Has anyone ever explained this scripture to you before?
Jesus is not saying that He comes to bring division, but that the result of His coming will bring division because some will believe and others will not, and so they will lose having anything in common with one another.
I believe the qur'an teaches a similar thing.
However the Bible does not teach us to pass judgement, it only points out that believing and not believing will cause people to separate.  We are even told to 'come out and be separate', but this in no way gives us permission to pass judgement on others.
It simply means that lightness has no commonality with darkness.  The one who does not follow will feel he is being judged even if he is not, and the one who does follow will not feel comfortable being around the sinner.  I know I am not comfortable being around people who drink, curse, or have loose morals... and those people usually like to accuse me of being self-righteous.  We are different.  The hope is that in setting an example others will see the goodness of a life lived God's way and will want to follow.  We should always be inviting and praying for others to seek redemption from sinful ways.  We are not to give up hope for their souls.
Salaam.

Exactly my point. your taking verses of Quran calling it a problem without having any knowledge of Quran. You are reading (most likely) a Sunni translations of Quran and coming to a Muslim site calling it a "problem". Not that makes you sound arrogant (with all due respect) it also shows your ignorance (again no offense) about Quran.

Our verses have explanations too, lots of them. Which is why we Shias believe in concept of Imamah and walayat and we are big on jurisprudence.  Each verse of Quran had many hadith elaborating them Imam Ali our first Imam said that he if he was going to do a Tafseer (interoperation) of Quran, it would take him a long time and cages of books to do that.

I highly recommend a more humble approach toward Islam if you are really here to seek more knowledge.

salaams

Edited by Ali-Reza, 04 March 2013 - 12:34 AM.

[CLynn]

Ali-Reza, on 04 March 2013 - 12:29 AM, said:

Exactly my point. your taking verses of Quran calling it a problem without having any knowledge of Quran. You are reading (most likely) a Sunni translations of Quran and coming to a Muslim site calling it a "problem". Not that makes you sound arrogant (with all due respect) it also shows your ignorance (again no offense) about Quran.

Our verses have explanations too, lots of them. Which is why we Shias believe in concept of Imamah and walayat and we are big on jurisprudence.  Each verse of Quran had many hadith elaborating them Imam Ali our first Imam said that he if he was going to do a Tafseer (interoperation) of Quran, it would take him a long time and cages of books to do that.

I highly recommend a more humble approach toward Islam if you are really here to seek more knowledge.

salaams

Greetings Ali-Reza,

Well then I think you should have told me about that verse rather than quoting Deuteronomy from the Bible.  Why not do that for me?
Thanks.

Why are the sunni's fighting the shia's if not because they believe them to be unbelievers?
Do shia's consider sunni's, wahabis, and alowites to be believers?  Is it ever ok for shia's to kill?  Do they also kill?  and who is it ok for them to kill?
See for me, and in my faith, it is not ok to kill anybody.
This does not mean that it doesn't happen anyway, but the faith does not ever give circumstances where it is approved.  Jesus never approved killing.  He said, 'he that is without sin may cast the first stone', and no one took Him up on it.

Salaam.

" and if I am correct Shia have been punished throughout history, why?  Simply because they believe that the successorship belongs to the genetic line of Muhammad?"

Am I correct in this?
Thanks.

Edited by CLynn, 04 March 2013 - 01:00 AM.

[Ali-Reza]

CLynn, on 04 March 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

Greetings Ali-Reza,

Well then I think you should have told me about that verse rather than quoting Deuteronomy from the Bible.  Why not do that for me?
Thanks.
Salaam.

Na thought I give you a taste of your own for taking things out of context and without prior in depth  knowledge.  

So you know, the verse your referring to doesn't mean "a believer" the literal word is "momein". In Islam we don't have a believer. We have;
Muslims and Momeins; Momeins are very pious, humble, civil and peaceful people who are very knowledgeable about religion,  and need to be protected.

Lack of having enough "momeins" is what has led Muslim world in such a mess today. A true Momein won't commit all these nonesene and injustice being committed.

Salams

[PureEthics]

CLynn, on 04 March 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

Yes.  Hi again.
Has anyone ever explained this scripture to you before?
Jesus is not saying that He comes to bring division, but that the result of His coming will bring division because some will believe and others will not, and so they will lose having anything in common with one another.
I believe the qur'an teaches a similar thing.
However the Bible does not teach us to pass judgement, it only points out that believing and not believing will cause people to separate.  We are even told to 'come out and be separate', but this in no way gives us permission to pass judgement on others.
It simply means that lightness has no commonality with darkness.  The one who does not follow will feel he is being judged even if he is not, and the one who does follow will not feel comfortable being around the sinner.  I know I am not comfortable being around people who drink, curse, or have loose morals... and those people usually like to accuse me of being self-righteous.  We are different.  The hope is that in setting an example others will see the goodness of a life lived God's way and will want to follow.  We should always be inviting and praying for others to seek redemption from sinful ways.  We are not to give up hope for their souls.
Salaam.


Greetings pureethics,

Actually the qur'an was constantly being changed by Muhammad and his new revelations.

Salaam..

really?, I actually never knew that and im a muslim wow, can you explain or provide proof, wa salaam

[Ali-Reza]

pureethics, on 04 March 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

really?, I actually never knew that and im a muslim wow, can you explain or provide proof, wa salaam

Probably coming from Sunni sources where they believe in all sort of nonesense reported by very those who killed the holy prophet

I think CLynn needs to re-visit Islam from Shia prospective and sources

[CLynn]

I can't find any definition for the word momein, except that it is a chinese word?

Somebody said they wanted dialogue.  I am just curious, what kind of dialogue were they wanting?

[Ali-Reza]

CLynn, on 04 March 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

I can't find any definition for the word momein, except that it is a chinese word?

Somebody said they wanted dialogue.  I am just curious, what kind of dialogue were they wanting?

You don't need to its an Arabic word and I am teaching you.

The verse of Quran you are referring to says مُؤْمِنً and that is "mome'in" in Arabic. It comes from the same root as the word "Amin" comes from which means "truthful and trustworthy"

http://wiki.answers...._does_amin_mean

That word  (مُؤْمِنً) often refers to those are very pious and trustworthy and are rares in societies  it certainly doesn't mean a just believer.

Again, "Let us see truth"

[CLynn]

Ok, found the definition:
religious believer n, (sb who believes in god). true believer n, (devoutly religious person).

Amin - In Arabic 'Amin (name)' for males means 'faithful, trustworthy'. The female equivalent is Amina, which is a widely used name among female Arabs.

and I see that it does come from the root verb, amuna which means 'to be faithful', or aamana which means 'he believed'.
And now I recognize too, the word moumin, believer.

I can see where translation would be difficult.
Learn something new everyday, I say.
Thanks.

Edited by CLynn, 04 March 2013 - 01:28 AM.

[Yusuf_Ali]

Salaams to all,

  That clip was sad and upsetting! That guy on that gunner really did look intoxicated ! It seems their ignorance has not faded in 1400 years.

CLynn, on 04 March 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

Greetings Ali-Reza,

Well then I think you should have told me about that verse rather than quoting Deuteronomy from the Bible.  Why not do that for me?
Thanks.

Why are the sunni's fighting the shia's if not because they believe them to be unbelievers?
Do shia's consider sunni's, wahabis, and alowites to be believers?  Is it ever ok for shia's to kill?  Do they also kill?  and who is it ok for them to kill?
See for me, and in my faith, it is not ok to kill anybody.
This does not mean that it doesn't happen anyway, but the faith does not ever give circumstances where it is approved.  Jesus never approved killing.  He said, 'he that is without sin may cast the first stone', and no one took Him up on it.

Salaam.

" and if I am correct Shia have been punished throughout history, why?  Simply because they believe that the successorship belongs to the genetic line of Muhammad?"

Am I correct in this?
Thanks.

A Muslim should fight only in defense, and punishment comes only from a knowledgeable body of jurist. As far as Christians not being allowed to kill anyone no matter what....that never stopped the crusades or the kkk whom supposedly killed in the name of Jesus. You have fanatics and extremists in every religion and those tyrants you saw in the clip are Islam's.

Yusuf Ali

[Abuthar Ali Al-Mukhtar]

Yea, I don't think God would change his laws in such a drastic way.  Most Christians tend to ignore the old testament altogether, which really made no sense.

Regardless, It's funny because i just saw that video.. I remembered a few weeks ago someone posted the video, similarly titled, "Shiism is killing us" or something.  I found this to be ironic since I've never heard a Shia call a Sunni a kufar who must be destroyed.  (That does not mean that there haven't been Shia who have said such things)

A couple days ago, I was actually accused by a Sunni for being 'The reason' the Muslim world is upside down right now. (Because I was a Shia?)  Which is also weird because I have never contributed to the killing, cursing or otherwise destructive behavior certain 'Muslims' part take in today.

This also goes back to a topic I posted a while ago, though i forget what the title was, it was basically this idea:  

NonMuslims lie about Islam and slander Muslims.  We tell them we don't believe in suicide bombing and other ridiculous things like that, but they say "NO!"  They insist that we DO believe that because either A. A crazy 'Muslim' guy in the crowd says that is what Islam is or B.  A NonMuslims (usually an 'ex-Muslim') says so.  These people never go to Qu'ran or authentic hadith to see what is true or what is not true.

So not only do NonMuslims do this to Muslims, but SUNNI do this to SHIA!  They accuse us of idol worship, fornication, etc etc.  There are things I've never even heard of.  One of the last things i heard was that Shia have tails because they are really Djinns in disguise.  Are you kidding??

Qu'ran Surah 63: Al Munafiqun, the hypocrites.  Allah does not like the hypocrites.  While we are murdered, we are also blamed for everything.  This is what has happened to Shia forever.  This is what is happening to Muslims RIGHT NOW as we speak.  But here's the thing.. What sources does the media use to slander Islam??  Just take a look and you'll realize most, if not all, come from Sunni sources.  The insane thing is that, as a Shia, we have to deal with misconceptions about Islam from NonMuslims and then we have to deal with misconceptions about the Shia point of View from our own brothers and sisters in ISLAM!!

--

What I really wanna know is:  

How are we going to solve this problem?  Sunni's are the Majority, and Shia have virtually no power.
As a Sunni, are you okay with what is going on?
Do you feel like a victim as a Sunni or do you feel like you are somewhat responsible?
As a Sunni, do you believe Shia are kafir?  If so, give evidence from the Qu'ran.
As a Sunni, do you face persecution from Shia often?
As a Shia, do you face persecution from Sunni often?

Asalamu Alaikum.  May Allah guide us and increase us in knowledge and understanding.  Inshallah we will be united soon.

Edited by Abuthar Ali Al-Mukhtar, 04 March 2013 - 01:15 PM.

[Ali-Reza]

Guys lets not get distracted from topic of this thread please thanks

[CLynn]

Abuthar Ali Al-Mukhtar, on 04 March 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

These people never go to Qu'ran or authentic hadith to see what is true or what is not true.

Greetings Abuthar Ali Al-Mukhtar,

I just wanted to share with you that I do.  
and actually there are many others who do too... Placid on this forum is one example.

Salaam.

added note:  Do muslims go to the Biblical scriptures to see what is true?  One must read to know.  One must search to find Truth.
May we all find peace.

Edited by CLynn, 04 March 2013 - 02:45 PM.

[Jahangiram]

CLynn, on 03 March 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

First video -
I am at a loss.  Where is this, Syria?  Why do people pass this on to their children?  How can anyone think this is what God wants?
and if I am correct Shia have been punished throughout history, why?  Simply because they believe that the successorship belongs to the genetic line of Muhammad?
and yet I shouldn't say I am surprised, this kind of fighting went on for ages in Ireland.
surah 4:93 - this is the problem... qualifiers... it should not be ok to take any human life... who defines 'believer'... obviously sunni's do not believe shia's are believers, and vice versa, and the same for whabi's and alawits, etc.... and that's only addressing the muslim populations.
Only God should have the right to determine if one is a believer... only God has the ability to know a man's heart.
Why would God want any human to take another human life, removing any chance of redemption of that soul?  This does not come from God.  God said;
"Thou shalt not kill" ... no qualifiers. Salaam.

You need to study classical islamic law. Protected non-muslim minorities in an Islamic state are called 'dhimmis' coming from the root word 'dhimma' (i.e. protection) since their blood and property are protected. This is something agreed upon by all schools of thought, even the saudi-based wahhabi website islam-qa says this: http://www.islamqa.c...683/kill dhimmi  http://www.islamqa.c...777/kill dhimmi