255 replies to this topic

[Syed Hussain]

al-Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq  said that this verse was revealed about Ali ibn Abi Talib, Hasan and Husayn . Upon hearing this, someone asked the Imam: "People say, 'Why did Allah not mention the names of Ali and his family in His Book?'"

The Imam answered: "Tell them that there came the command of salat (prayer), but Allah did not mention whether three or four raka'at (units) (to be performed); it was the Apostle of Allah who explained all the details. And (the command of ) zakat was revealed, but Allah did not say that it is one in every forty dirham; it was the Apostle of Allah who explained it; and hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca) was ordered but Allah did not say to perform tawaf ( circumambulation of the Ka'bah) seven times the Apostle of Allah explained it. Likewise, the verse was revealed: Obey Allah, and obey the Apostle and those vested with authority from among you, and it was revealed about Ali and Hasan and Husayn .

[Rational Thinking]

While i don't doubt Ali a.s. should have succeeded...i do think it would have been clearer to just mention the names or tell us we need to follow the imams after the prophet pbuh. Vested in authority could mean the prophet pbuh's goveners.

Also, God describes salat in a lot more detail and so many more verses explicitly telling us the basics of how to pray so many times.

It would have been better if it were more self evident, but i guess we could say...why didn't God just make torah unchangeable like he did to the Quran.

We will never know lol...for now.

Edited by Rational Thinking, 20 February 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[OsamaHatum]

Ahl al-Bayt are in the Quran.

The verse of purification is part of the 33rd verse of Surah al-Ahzab of Qur'an, which says,
"...Verily, Allah has decreed to remove fault from you, O' Ahlul Bayt, and sanctify you in a perfect way."

http://en.wikipedia....of_purification

[Syed Hussain]

Even thought we have been blessed with guidance from the all might lord it's our duty to find the true islam, so My PERSONAL Opinion    is that it's a test can you find the true islam. There are plenty of hadiths that prove imam Ali to be the successor. And many ideas that it may be abu bakr, but it's your job to find out. That's why I think it's not that informative so we used our brain and fit the puzzles and see the truth. May allah guide us all

Edited by Syed Hussain, 20 February 2013 - 06:22 PM.

[reachhaider]

Rational Thinking, on 20 February 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

While i don't doubt Ali a.s. should have succeeded...i do think it would have been clearer to just mention the names or tell us we need to follow the imams after the prophet pbuh. Vested in authority could mean the prophet pbuh's goveners.

Also, God describes salat in a lot more detail and so many more verses explicitly telling us the basics of how to pray so many times.

It would have been better if it were more self evident, but i guess we could say...why didn't God just make torah unchangeable like he did to the Quran.

We will never know lol...for now.

YA  you are  to some extent  will make life  easy for  every one if Allah has  declared  all that  clearly or may be with names  in Holy  Quran  but remember  one  thing  this LIFE  for us is just  like Examination  time  and  we have to clear  all  the Q/A   so that  the life  after  Death should be excellent   and in EXAMS  i bet you you never get  questions Straight  it will  always  be  twisted  and confusing  you have to make sure   your  knowledge and your  understanding  and ability to  find the truth from   what you read  or  understand  is  matured enough to know  wht is right and  what is wrong  thats   why you do not get  all things   clear  you have to use ur brain and heart to  get to bootom of the truth  and  find  out  what is  THE BEST  and   than   what you follow  is  from the  bottom of your  heart without  any doubts and it will be PURE .

[Yusuf_Ali]

SalamuAlaikom,

Everything we believe should be based on reason and not on blind following. Just like in the case of some schools of thought saying that Ahlul Bayt includes the wives of the Holy Prophet (SAW). I'm no scholar but based on the the Sunni hadith as well as Shia Ahlul Bayt does not include the wives. So using reason I would come to think 33:33 was in reference to Fatima , Ali , Hasan , and Hussain . Allah (SWT) has blessed many of us with the faculty of knowledge and understanding, some of us use it and some don't.

[89jghur32]

Rational Thinking, on 20 February 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

While i don't doubt Ali a.s. should have succeeded...i do think it would have been clearer to just mention the names or tell us we need to follow the imams after the prophet pbuh. Vested in authority could mean the prophet pbuh's goveners.

Also, God describes salat in a lot more detail and so many more verses explicitly telling us the basics of how to pray so many times.

It would have been better if it were more self evident, but i guess we could say...why didn't God just make torah unchangeable like he did to the Quran.

We will never know lol...for now.

There are more than 20 verses in the Quran on imamate. That's sufficient for those who want to seek knowledge and sincerely worship Allah.

[Rational Thinking]

al-Irshad, on 20 February 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

There are more than 20 verses in the Quran on imamate. That's sufficient for those who want to seek knowledge and sincerely worship Allah.

Not one of them are explicit with regards to imamat after Muhammed pbuh.

God explicitly tells us to pray.

The verses on Imamat can not be directly extrapolated to mean that there will be 12 Imams after Muhammed.

Infact, there is added confusion in that Allah swt says he will not send any messenger after him.

Would it not have been easy to say BUT there will be 12 guides?

I am not doubting Allah swt, or Imamt, i am merely asserting there are ways to stop divisions and make it plain to us , but God knows why he did not.

Edited by Rational Thinking, 21 February 2013 - 03:44 PM.

[Syed Hussain]

That's was explained through the hadiths.
Let me give u a example the mehdis name is not named in the holy quran
But evy sect of islam knows about the mehdi imam e zamana
Similarly the hadiths tell us about this. There will be 12 princes after me
There are many hadiths that state imam Ali will be after him, but people downgrade them... And example Sunnis don't except narrations from maytem e tamar because he loves imam Ali too much.... They always have something to do to not except a hadith, also allah doesn't leave a world with our a hujja. It wouldn't make sence to.

[Ugly Jinn]

Syed Hussain, on 20 February 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

al-Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq  said that this verse was revealed about Ali ibn Abi Talib, Hasan and Husayn . Upon hearing this, someone asked the Imam: "People say, 'Why did Allah not mention the names of Ali and his family in His Book?'"

The Imam answered: "Tell them that there came the command of salat (prayer), but Allah did not mention whether three or four raka'at (units) (to be performed); it was the Apostle of Allah who explained all the details. And (the command of ) zakat was revealed, but Allah did not say that it is one in every forty dirham; it was the Apostle of Allah who explained it; and hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca) was ordered but Allah did not say to perform tawaf ( circumambulation of the Ka'bah) seven times the Apostle of Allah explained it. Likewise, the verse was revealed: Obey Allah, and obey the Apostle and those vested with authority from among you, and it was revealed about Ali and Hasan and Husayn .

Following issues with above:

• Salat, Zakat, and Hajj are branches of religion (Furoo ad-Deen), while Shia's claim Imamat to be the Roots of Religion (Usool ad-Deen). It's comparing apples to oranges. If Imamat was part of Furoo ad-Deen then the above hadith would be consistent.
  
• The concept of Imamat itself is not defined in the Quran like Salat, Hajj, and Zakat. If Imamat was defined (ex "there will be divine successors after the Prophet) and no names/details mentioned then you could've had a case (not a strong one).
  
• There is a difference between practices (salat,hajj, and zakat) and naming a successor. Practices require details to perform, it's an actionable ritual, naming a successor is not hence details is not needed for one sentence, "Ali will be the successor".
  
• Reference?

[hadez803]

Ok Every body calm down. I don't know why some people even bother answering such questions when Sunnis bring them up. Here is the shortest and most logical answer:

The ahlu al-bayt's names are in the Quran, dear Sunni brothers. In the exact same place where you find Abu bakr and Umars names.

[mkazmi]

I agree with brother Ali Reza the main reason Alhul Bayt were not mentioned outright in the Quran is because every Khalifa after Imam Ali would have changed Quran to fit his liking.  we would be in the same predicament as Christianity, there would be like 10 versions of the Quran by now.  If you read
Al-Allamah al-Sayyid Muhammad Husayn at-Tabataba'i tasfseer of the Quran called Al mizan (its translated online) you will find how the Ahlul Bayt were mentioned in great detail all over the Quran.  just not outright due to the reason mentioned above.

[Ugly Jinn]

hadez803, on 22 February 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

The ahlu al-bayt's names are in the Quran, dear Sunni brothers. In the exact same place where you find Abu bakr and Umars names.

Why do you assume only Sunni's bring this up? It's a fundamental issue questioned by Shias and non-Sunnis also. Abu Bakr and Umar's names are not in the Quran, nor were they divine agents, nor are they part of articles of faith, nor does using this ambiguous example confirm Ahlul Bayt. This issue is a Shia issue only, trying to include Sunni fallible personalities to justify the existence of Ahlul Bayt does not help your cause at all.

If God did not mention this fundamental belief of His religion in His holy divine scripture then why are you adding/forcing something He did not define in His fundamental divine book?

Can't you digest a simple logical argument that God did not consider this (Imamat) a fundamental belief hence did not define it in His book?

mkazmi, on 22 February 2013 - 10:58 PM, said:

I agree with brother Ali Reza the main reason Alhul Bayt were not mentioned outright in the Quran is because every Khalifa after Imam Ali would have changed Quran to fit his liking.

So God would've been unable to protect it otherwise like He promised?

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 23 February 2013 - 02:31 PM.

[Rational Thinking]

Hmm there is a concept of 12 leaders. It is in the Quran, so that is established.

But why does Allah swt not simply tell us Muhammed pbuh too will have 12 leaders?

He does it for other prophets pbuh.

[Ugly Jinn]

Rational Thinking, on 23 February 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

Hmm there is a concept of 12 leaders. It is in the Quran, so that is established.

But why does Allah swt not simply tell us Muhammed pbuh too will have 12 leaders?

He does it for other prophets pbuh.

You need to analyze the context of the "12" in the Quran, it has nothing to do with 12 divine agents after the Prophet, rather the verses are speaking in past tense, which means it already happened. It clearly states an agreement was broken and them cursed.

[5:11] O ye who believe! Remember Allah's favour unto you, how a people were minded to stretch out their hands against you but He withheld their hands from you; and keep your duty to Allah. In Allah let believers put their trust.
[5:12] Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We raised among them twelve chieftains, and Allah said: Lo! I am with you. If ye establish worship and pay the poor-due, and believe in My messengers and support them, and lend unto Allah a kindly loan, surely I shall remit your sins, and surely I shall bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this will go astray from a plain road.
[5:13] And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 23 February 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[mkazmi]

Quote

So God would've been unable to protect it otherwise like He promised?

Brother Allah (SWT) participates at His own discretion if you curse the Alhul Bayt right now you will not be struck by lightning lol, it is up to you to do research and find out the truth.  Human beings are given intellect, use it.  everything cannot be spoon fed to you.  Alot of the Kings that have come after Imam Ali were mostly Sunni, and wahabi at that there have been a few Shia empires but still they were far from perfect also.  why try to break up the Ummah on purpose.  if names wer singled out in the Qur'an, that's just asking for jealous people to change its content, true knowledge has to be sought after, you have to aspire to attain it, otherwise if everybody was perfect, and there were no munafiqin then there would be no problems in this world.

Edited by mkazmi, 23 February 2013 - 06:11 PM.

[mkazmi]

Here is one of the most famous examples believed by both Shia and Sunni alike that proves Imam Ali is mentioned the Quran.
Verse Of Mastership (Wilayat)
"Verily, your Master is but Allah and His Apostle and those who believe, who establish prayers, and pay the Zakat while bowed in worship." QURAN: 5: 55
The Muslim scholars (Sunni and Shia alike) are agreed that this verse was revealed in honour of Imam Ali Ibin Abe Taleb(as). It clearly shows that there are three Masters for believers. Firstly Allah, secondly His Prophet, and thirdly Ali (with the Eleven succeeding Imams).

[Ugly Jinn]

mkazmi, on 23 February 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Brother Allah (SWT) participates at His own discretion if you curse the Alhul Bayt right now you will not be struck by lightning lol, it is up to you to do research and find out the truth.  Human beings are given intellect, use it.  everything cannot be spoon fed to you.  Alot of the Kings that have come after Imam Ali were mostly Sunni, and wahabi at that there have been a few Shia empires but still they were far from perfect also.  why try to break up the Ummah on purpose.  if names wer singled out in the Qur'an, that's just asking for jealous people to change its content, true knowledge has to be sought after, you have to aspire to attain it, otherwise if everybody was perfect, and there were no munafiqin then there would be no problems in this world.

Your post doesn't answer anything except you are trying to give your subjective view on why Ahlul Bayt/names/Imamat were excluded from the Quran.

The facts about the Quran cannot be turned into a subjective discussion. It's a simple logical argument,  "God provided one divine holy book with fundamentals about His religion which did not include Imamat/Ahlul Bayt/names, rather the Quran kept repeating that Prophet Muhammad will be the last" (didn't say Prophet Muhammad will be the last prophet but other divine Imams will follow).

These are facts from the Quran, nothing subjective about it.

[PureEthics]

Ugly Jinn, on 23 February 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

You need to analyze the context of the "12" in the Quran, it has nothing to do with 12 divine agents after the Prophet, rather the verses are speaking in past tense, which means it already happened. It clearly states an agreement was broken and them cursed.

[5:11] O ye who believe! Remember Allah's favour unto you, how a people were minded to stretch out their hands against you but He withheld their hands from you; and keep your duty to Allah. In Allah let believers put their trust.
[5:12] Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We raised among them twelve chieftains, and Allah said: Lo! I am with you. If ye establish worship and pay the poor-due, and believe in My messengers and support them, and lend unto Allah a kindly loan, surely I shall remit your sins, and surely I shall bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this will go astray from a plain road.
[5:13] And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly.

5:13 isnt referring to the 12 chosen. Its referring to the people who broke their covenant by not accepting the promised prophet :

Refer to al Baqarah: 40 for the covenant taken from Bani Israil to accept the Holy Prophet as the promised prophet, which they did not fulfill; and to deny the genuineness of his divine mission they corrupted the books sent to their prophets.

Allah curses the people who break their pledge. So the Muslims should take precaution and avoid to act like the Jews. It is incumbent upon the Muslims to remain attached with the covenant the Holy Prophet bound them with at Ghadir Khum. They must also safeguard themselves from misinterpreting the Quran in order to keep away the curse of Allah which will certainly be upon them if they, like the Jews, distort the true meanings of the book of Allah to serve their worldly interests.

[igotquestions]

Imamate is Furoo ad-Deen.

[goharjanjua]

Rational Thinking, on 20 February 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

i do think it would have been clearer to just mention the names or tell us we need to follow the imams after the prophet pbuh.

Ugly Jinn, on 23 February 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Can't you digest a simple logical argument that God did not consider this (Imamat) a fundamental belief hence did not define it in His book?

Hmmm...
According to the Hadiths , Allah sent 124000 Prophets - But there are only 25 mentioned by name in Quran.....! Do you EVER question the Names nd Existance of the remaining 123975 Prophets(as)??
the answer to this is simple...
Allah informs us, Prophet(s) explains the details...
same goes for your question of mentioning AhalBayt(as) and the 12 Imams(as).
....

Edited by goharjanjua, 25 February 2013 - 11:48 AM.

[Robin Hood]

mkazmi, on 22 February 2013 - 10:58 PM, said:

I agree with brother Ali Reza the main reason Alhul Bayt were not mentioned outright in the Quran is because every Khalifa after Imam Ali would have changed Quran to fit his liking.  we would be in the same predicament as Christianity, there would be like 10 versions of the Quran by now.  If you read
Al-Allamah al-Sayyid Muhammad Husayn at-Tabataba'i tasfseer of the Quran called Al mizan (its translated online) you will find how the Ahlul Bayt were mentioned in great detail all over the Quran.  just not outright due to the reason mentioned above.

Can't God protect the Qur'an?

[Ugly Jinn]

pureethics, on 24 February 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

5:13 isnt referring to the 12 chosen. Its referring to the people who broke their covenant by not accepting the promised prophet

5:12. And yes, it's not.

Quote

Refer to al Baqarah: 40 for the covenant taken from Bani Israil to accept the Holy Prophet as the promised prophet, which they did not fulfill; and to deny the genuineness of his divine mission they corrupted the books sent to their prophets.

Above has no mention of the "12".

igotquestions, on 25 February 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Imamate is Furoo ad-Deen.

http://shia.org/fundamental.html

goharjanjua, on 25 February 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Hmmm...
According to the Hadiths , Allah sent 124000 Prophets - But there are only 25 mentioned by name in Quran.....! Do you EVER question the Names nd Existance of the remaining 123975 Prophets(as)??
the answer to this is simple...
Allah informs us, Prophet(s) explains the details...
same goes for your question of mentioning AhalBayt(as) and the 12 Imams(as).

Did Allah mention there were many Prophets in the Quran? Yes.
Did Allah mention there are going to be divine Imams after the Prophet in the Quran? No.

Did Allah mention names of any of the of Prophets in the Quran? Yes.
Did Allah mention names of any of the divine Imams in the Quran? No.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 25 February 2013 - 01:52 PM.

[PureEthics]

Ugly Jinn, on 25 February 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

5:12. And yes, it's not.



Above has no mention of the "12".



http://shia.org/fundamental.html




Did Allah mention there were many Prophets in the Quran? Yes.
Did Allah mention there are going to be divine Imams after the Prophet in the Quran? No.

Did Allah mention names of any of the of Prophets in the Quran? Yes.
Did Allah mention names of any of the divine Imams in the Quran? No.

did Allah mention how to pray, how to perform hajj, jurisprudence, fiq? no he doesnt need to because the prophet told us. If everything is in the quran then why did he send a messenger? couldnt he have just sent a book? the fact is to be a muslim: you must believe in Allah and the prophets, if you break any of these rules your not a muslim. Now conditionally if you believe in the prophet you follow him-sunnah. We believe our prophet choose his successor and their are hints of imamate in the quran whether you wanna deny it or not. Imam is all over the quran. There is no way Allah will keep the humankind misguided after he sent 124000 prophets. Plus, people can prone to change the religion of Allah, who will protect it? What happened to the jews when the prophet left them for a couple of days? What do you think will happen to us without an imam....I can already see the consequences of those who dont believe in the truth...

[hasnainabbas786]

So what if Allah (swt) hasn't mentioned it clearly in the Quran? This is a test of your faith; a test of your faith, belief, logic & reasoning. If it were this easy we all would be awarded Jannat ul Firdous!

If we wouldn't trust just any doctor or a lawyer with our matters, then how is it different when it comes to Religion? Don't follow any cleric or maulana blindly.