95 replies to this topic

[Chris]

ShiaBen, on 17 September 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

You mentioned Syria splitting into two countries.

Are you referring to an Alawite state and a Sunni state?

Or do you mean a Sunni state and a Kurdish one?

Because Syrian Kurds claim if Salafists come to power and Assad falls and becomes replaced, they are willing to establish their own autonomous Kurdistan ASAP.

I think a mostly Syrian Arab Sunni state and a Kurdish state.

There is a possibility of an Alawite / Christian state too.  I hope it happens.

[Saintly_Jinn23]

Chris, on 18 September 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

I think a mostly Syrian Arab Sunni state and a Kurdish state.

There is a possibility of an Alawite / Christian state too.  I hope it happens.

If it were two states, you'd likely have a Saudi style Sunni state and a secular state still headed by the Ba'ath. If it were more, then you would probably have a Sunni state, a new Kurdistan state and a Syrian secular state of Sunnis, Alawites w/ other Shia and Christians (again, probably headed by the Ba'ath still.

[Marbles]

Chris, on 18 September 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

I think a mostly Syrian Arab Sunni state and a Kurdish state.

There is a possibility of an Alawite / Christian state too.  I hope it happens.

Splitting up countries into smaller units especially on the basis of religious affiliations or ethnicity+religious affiliations is going aggravate the problems and make it much worse in the long run. We have enough examples of that already.

The aim should be to seek more integration and coexistence in the current borders for a better society.

[hejsansvejsan]

Marbles, on 19 September 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

Splitting up countries into smaller units especially on the basis of religious affiliations or ethnicity+religious affiliations is going aggravate the problems and make it much worse in the long run. We have enough examples of that already.

The aim should be to seek more integration and coexistence in the current borders for a better society.

There are usually problems when people speak different languages - Belgium, Canada, Kosovo.... I admit Switzerland has managed very well. But I think a Kurdish state consisting of the Kurdish speaking regions in Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey would be the best solution.

[Marbles]

hejsansvejsan, on 19 September 2012 - 03:49 AM, said:

There are usually problems when people speak different languages - Belgium, Canada, Kosovo.... I admit Switzerland has managed very well. But I think a Kurdish state consisting of the Kurdish speaking regions in Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey would be the best solution.

So do you propose all Arabic speaking countries should merge to become one large state?

Besides, it's naive to say that it's all about languages. There are different ethnicities who may or may not speak different languages. There are also cross-country sectarian affiliations which are stronger than any manufactured national narrative.

Middle East cannot be run according to the European model of nation-states. This fact should have been painfully understood in year 2012.

[Chaotic Muslem]

Marbles, on 19 September 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

So do you propose all Arabic speaking countries should merge to become one large state?

Besides, it's naive to say that it's all about languages. There are different ethnicities who may or may not speak different languages. There are also cross-country sectarian affiliations which are stronger than any manufactured national narrative.

Middle East cannot be run according to the European model of nation-states. This fact should have been painfully understood in year 2012.

actually the larger middle east appeals to many in Arab world, the borders between the Arab states are simply the most stupid thing, besides , arabs in arab countries are not foriegn nor guests , they are visitors from the neighborhood

[Marbles]

Chaotic Muslem, on 19 September 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

actually the larger middle east appeals to many in Arab world, the borders between the Arab states are simply the most stupid thing,

Exactly.

Had it not been for the post WWI Imperial project. . .

[hejsansvejsan]

Marbles, on 19 September 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

So do you propose all Arabic speaking countries should merge to become one large state?

Besides, it's naive to say that it's all about languages. There are different ethnicities who may or may not speak different languages. There are also cross-country sectarian affiliations which are stronger than any manufactured national narrative.

Middle East cannot be run according to the European model of nation-states. This fact should have been painfully understood in year 2012.

There are lots of different ethnicities in USA too. I admit racism is a problem. But are arabs more racist than americans? I believe a united arabic state would be good for arabs.

[Marbles]

hejsansvejsan, on 19 September 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

There are lots of different ethnicities in USA too. I admit racism is a problem. But are arabs more racist than americans? I believe a united arabic state would be good for arabs.

Yes, and the only ones who will not let this happen are those glorious Western democracies and their propped up tin pot dictators some of whom they imposed on the people to begin with.

[ShiaBen]

Marbles, on 19 September 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

Splitting up countries into smaller units especially on the basis of religious affiliations or ethnicity+religious affiliations is going aggravate the problems and make it much worse in the long run. We have enough examples of that already.

The aim should be to seek more integration and coexistence in the current borders for a better society.

Definitely agree, like Pakistan and Israel.

[Servidor]

Gepetto_Zapata, on 18 September 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

Thanks Servidor... Nice read, by the way when he speaks, is it in Italian or hardcore Latin?

You are most welcome. I was beginning to think no one was listening to me! It would be Italian. Latin is usually reserved for conversing with other priests, bishops or religious (depending on which; very useful if you cannot speak Italian or the bishop of Rome's native language) and for official documents. Nothing comes out of Rome except in Latin. A Jesuit I admired put it very well once: With the Latin, you cannot cheat.

Here is another article from a good source that summarizes the visit well. The visit itself was actually occasioned by the release of a document from the Synod of bishops of the Middle East called Ecclesia in Medio Oriente. For those who could do nothing but read between the lines and speculated passionately about all the political motives he did not have, Magister's last lines seem to me to be perfect for it.

". . .Benedict XVI once again disappointed those who would like to see him make dazzling political gestures or bring solutions of international strategy.

But precisely by acting in this way, he has gone to the essence of what his mission requires.

For all, he recalled the grammar of the natural law. For Christians, the sign of the cross."

Here are all of the addresses he gave available online in several languages (scroll down).

Calling Constantine to mind was a courageous move by Benedictvs. For those of us who actually know Constantine, it was a tilt of the head. While in the context of the region it was meant to recall that Constantine's lasting religious legacy was not his conversion (one man's conversion had no power to convert an empire) but the Milan Edict of Toleration of 313 Anno Domini, which was never revoked or abrogated and which did not make the Christian religion the State religion. It simply gave the Church room for maneuver. All religions were to be tolerated. The battle for the soul of the Roman empire began. We won.

And in case anyone feels inclined to bring it up - Constantine's later edicts against heresies were promulgated because the relevant groups violated other point's of State Law. In some cases he was just reiterating what his predecessor's had decided in their regard (so, Diocletian's edict against Manichaens).

Edited by Servidor, 19 September 2012 - 12:08 PM.

[hejsansvejsan]

Marbles, on 19 September 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

Yes, and the only ones who will not let this happen are those glorious Western democracies and their propped up tin pot dictators some of whom they imposed on the people to begin with.

I cannot predict the future. But when people demand democracy - as in the arab spring - the West usually supports the people.

[Saintly_Jinn23]

hejsansvejsan, on 19 September 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

I cannot predict the future. But when people demand democracy - as in the arab spring - the West usually supports the people.

Like they did in Afghanistan

[hejsansvejsan]

Saintly_Jinn23, on 20 September 2012 - 04:51 AM, said:

Like they did in Afghanistan

Did the Afghani people demand democracy? Well I suppose there were some who did. But I have the impression those who demanded Islamic Sharia were screaming higher. (Besides they are violent and heavily armed.) It was rather the West that demanded democracy. So the situation is rather hopeless.  I do not think it is possible to impose democracy without popular support. And of course I think our swedish troops should be brought home. But I respect our democracy and our majority decided that our troops will stay until 2014.

[Servidor]

My final post in this thread. My favourite pictures from the visit.















And that basilica, the holy apostle Paul's in Harissa?



I would give my beard for one day and one night in that church.

[ImAli]

He doesn't look so evil in those pictures Servidor.

[Christianlady]

Marbles, on 19 September 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

Middle East cannot be run according to the European model of nation-states. This fact should have been painfully understood in year 2012.

Hello Marbles,

I'd like to make a new thread with this quote and ask you about it, if that's ok.

As for the Pope reaching Lebanon, cool! I'm not Catholic but I respect their beliefs, even though I don't agree with some of their beliefs.

Peace and God bless you

[Servidor]

ImAli, on 21 September 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

He doesn't look so evil in those pictures Servidor.

You Ma'am, have made me smile.

[Marbles]

Christianlady, on 21 September 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

Hello Marbles,

I'd like to make a new thread with this quote and ask you about it, if that's ok.

As for the Pope reaching Lebanon, cool! I'm not Catholic but I respect their beliefs, even though I don't agree with some of their beliefs.

Peace and God bless you

I saw the thread you made and I knew ab initio that it would degenerate into total lunacy. I don't think it's a good idea to reply in that mess so I will PM you with what I meant. Hope that's OK.

[Gepetto_Zapata]

ImAli, on 21 September 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

He doesn't look so evil in those pictures Servidor.

And that's exactly why I said that this guy (in Leb) is not the pope at the beginning of this thread, he doesn't look like the pope does in previous pictures... ;-)

Or well, old age...

[ImAli]

Gepetto_Zapata, on 22 September 2012 - 04:40 AM, said:

And that's exactly why I said that this guy (in Leb) is not the pope at the beginning of this thread, he doesn't look like the pope does in previous pictures... ;-)

Or well, old age...

He's just happy after eating all of that Lebanese food