40 replies to this topic

[Logical Islam]

yes!

This is the purpose of the imams. to TEACH! not as people we pray to.

[jund_el_Mahdi]

Logical Islam, on 31 August 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

yes!

This is the purpose of the imams. to TEACH! not as people we pray to.

I think you need yourself checked. We pray only to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

[Logical Islam]

jund_el_Mahdi, on 31 August 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

I think you need yourself checked. We pray only to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

Brother,

We believe Allah swt gives Imams the ability to hear our dua, beg for us, and then, answer for us.

We say this is NOT shirk because Allah swt gives the imams the power, so they act out of Allahs power.

Therefore we say O ali help me, oh imam help me cure my sick one.

We call to the imams, and believe by Allah's power, they grant our dua.


Ofcourse. i directly ask Allah swt, and use the imams as guides

[jund_el_Mahdi]

Logical Islam, on 31 August 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

Brother,

We believe Allah swt gives Imams the ability to hear our dua, beg for us, and then, answer for us.

We say this is NOT shirk because Allah swt gives the imams the power, so they act out of Allahs power.

Therefore we say O ali help me, oh imam help me cure my sick one.

We call to the imams, and believe by Allah's power, they grant our dua.


Ofcourse. i directly ask Allah swt, and use the imams as guides

Brother, none of that is wajib in Shia Islam. We can go directly to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, it's of your choosing. Likewise, I do not think any sane Shia actually feels like the Imams do anything from their own power.

Jesus cured the blind and brought the dead back to life. The believers of the time would ask Jesus to cure them and help them. They would come to him for his help to cure their loved ones. This was not out of the ordinary, because they knew he had this ability because Allah (swt) is the only one to give him these powers. Allah bestowed his grace on Jesus, because of his lofty status with Allah.

Do you read Dua' Tawassul? Did you know Imam Hasan al-Askari wrote it himself? If these things were not allowed, how could the grandson of Rasulallah (saw) do it? We are not asking the Imams themselves to help us, but to grant shafa'3at, intercede on our behalf on Yowm al Qiyamah, so that perhaps Allah (swt) would grant us respite due to their intercession, due to their positions with Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

No one worships Imams. This is pure shirk if so.

Edited by jund_el_Mahdi, 31 August 2012 - 08:06 AM.

[Logical Islam]

jund_el_Mahdi, on 31 August 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

Brother, none of that is wajib in Shia Islam. We can go directly to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, it's of your choosing. Likewise, I do not think any sane Shia actually feels like the Imams do anything from their own power.

Jesus cured the blind and brought the dead back to life. The believers of the time would ask Jesus to cure them and help them. This was not out of the ordinary, because they knew he had this ability because Allah (swt) is the only one to give him these powers. Allah bestowed his grace on Jesus, because of his lofty status with Allah.

Do you read Dua' Tawassul? Did you know Imam Hasan al-Askari wrote it himself? If these things were not allowed, how could the grandson of Rasulallah (saw) do it? We are not asking the Imams themselves to help us, but to grant shafa'3at, intercede on our behalf on Yowm al Qiyamah, so that perhaps Allah (swt) would grant us respite due to their intercession, due to their positions with Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

No one worships Imams. This is pure shirk if so.

1. If we can go directly to Allah, what's the point of tawassul ?

2. Jesus did that as a miracle. He wanted to prove to people he was a prophet pbuh from God. He never claimed to have such powers after his death - think about it , would jesus bring anyone from the dead right now ? those brought back probably were only brought back for a temporary ammount.

3. I read tawassul. We ask the Imams to go to our Lord on the day of judgement on our behalf, being our leaders.


I have said many times we do not beleive the imams act of their own power...nothing in this universe does. Not even Hitler. He acted of the power given to him, like an ant, bee ect.


But we believe : pray and ask Imam Ali a.s for help because Allah swt has given him the power

tawassul is for the sake of.

there is a difference in praying directly to Allah for the sake of, AND praying directly to Ali because you believe God has given him the power

[jund_el_Mahdi]

Logical Islam, on 31 August 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

1. If we can go directly to Allah, what's the point of tawassul ?

2. Jesus did that as a miracle. He wanted to prove to people he was a prophet pbuh from God. He never claimed to have such powers after his death - think about it , would jesus bring anyone from the dead right now ? those brought back probably were only brought back for a temporary ammount.

3. I read tawassul. We ask the Imams to go to our Lord on the day of judgement on our behalf, being our leaders.


I have said many times we do not beleive the imams act of their own power...nothing in this universe does. Not even Hitler. He acted of the power given to him, like an ant, bee ect.


But we believe : pray and ask Imam Ali a.s for help because Allah swt has given him the power

tawassul is for the sake of.

there is a difference in praying directly to Allah for the sake of, AND praying directly to Ali because you believe God has given him the power

Like I said, tawassul is not required. But I heed you to not act like it is prohibited, because it's not. Be wary of making haraam something that is halal and liked by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

Also like you said, that is all tawassul is. We ask the Ahlul Bayt to intercede on our behalf to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. They are the most beloved of the creation of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

You remember how they said that if you start your dua or say your need to Allah and start with Allahuma salle 3ala Muhammad wa ale Muhammad, and then end the dua with Allahuma salle 3ala Muhammad wa ale Muhammad, Allah guarantees that he will give you what you seek? This is because of their status with Allah.

So that he will listen to them and accept their intercession, as perhaps he wouldn't have from such lowly creatures as us on Yowm al Qiyamah. That is all we ask them.

We are not praying to Imam Ali . Allah says those who are killed in the way of Allah are not dead, nay they live, finding sustenance in the presence of their Lord. It is not like Rasulallah (saw) and Ahlul Bayt can not not hear us. No one worships Imam Ali, people can ask him to intercede on our behalf on Yowm al Qiyamah, that is all.

Edited by jund_el_Mahdi, 31 August 2012 - 08:22 AM.

[Hot hot]

Brother june el mehdi better go to facebook rather then arguing with this illogical.

[Logical Islam]

if you are asking Allah swt for the sake of Ali a.s.  that is NOT the same as asking Ali a.s. directly because you BELIEVE he has been Given the power to hear, intercede, and answer your Dua.

Sunni's use tawassul i.e for the sake of

never do they ask directly (even if you believe they have the power)

If i can say Ya Allah madad and get my dua answered...that begs the question..why say Ya Ali Madad?

and if  Ya Ali Madad is better, then why ever say Ya Allah Madad?

please answer. i want to learn

[Hot hot]

Read my sign ^ haha

[Logical Islam]

hot hot, you and i are what happens, when an unstoppable force, meets an immovable object

[jund_el_Mahdi]

Ok brother, let me ask you a question. Just reply yes or no. Do you believe Imam Mahdi is on the Earth in ghayba?

[Logical Islam]

ofcourse i do.

[jund_el_Mahdi]

Logical Islam, on 31 August 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

ofcourse i do.

If he showed himself to me now, am I allowed to go to him and ask to him "Oh Imam, please intercede on my behalf on the day of judgement" or no?

Even if he did not show himself, can I ask him now in my dua to make shafa3at on my behalf on day of judgement?

Edited by jund_el_Mahdi, 31 August 2012 - 08:50 AM.

[Logical Islam]

Look:

i just want to know one thing.

Is saying Ya Allah Madad better than saying Ya Ali Madad..

if the Imams , by Allah swt's leave, can listen to our Dua, by his leave, grant them WHY would i ever pray directly to Allah swt ?


Look brother:

> If i pray To Ali a.s. because Allah swt gives him the power to grant my Dua,

>  why ever say Ya Allah?


So.

is SAYING ya ali madad BETTER than saying Ya Allah madad? If it is not better, why say it ? If it is , why ever say Ya Allah?

[jund_el_Mahdi]

It's not a discussion as to which is better, but that which is it permissible or not, and it is. We'll get to that.

But please do not ignore my question brother. We're having a discussion. For now I asked you a question.

Edited by jund_el_Mahdi, 31 August 2012 - 08:59 AM.

[Logical Islam]

Look at it this way, in regards to your question.

You do a sin.

The sin is still in your account.

God knows your heart, and if you deserve forgiveness

what would a third party...have to do with this ?

The sons of the Yakub asked Allah swt to forgive them BECAUSE THEY harmed their OWN brother, the SON of the father the asked God to forgive them for.

Look.

You have a prophets son, who has been kidnapped by his own brothers.

the brothers regret it, and ask the prophet pbuh who is their dad to ask God to forgive them.

Because it is the SON of the prophet who has been harmed.

Saying FOR the sake of.

AND asking them directly, EVEN IF you believe they have the power or not

are two different topics here. let us not collate them as one

[jund_el_Mahdi]

Inshallah khayr, until you respond properly to my question brother, I'm afraid I will not discuss this matter further.

Edited by jund_el_Mahdi, 31 August 2012 - 09:09 AM.

[Logical Islam]

if you want his shafah (my sunni friend says even pious people can do shafah)...then ask Allah swt to accept his shafah

rather than saying o imam mahdi, please cure me (with the intention he has been given the power to cure)

makes no sense

[jund_el_Mahdi]

I'm not talking about curing.

So you are saying I am forbidden from going to Imam Mahdi and saying "Please intercede on my behalf on Yowm al Qiyamah"?

Muslims could not go to the Prophet (saw) at his time and ask him that?

Edited by jund_el_Mahdi, 31 August 2012 - 09:22 AM.

[Logical Islam]

I am confused about the concept of intercession. Allah swt is just. He knows the hearts of men.

look at this:

2 people.

both equal sinners.

both muslims.

go to hell

1 is let out because he asked Imam mahdi to intercede

so heaven and hell is not based on deeds  , but who you can get to intercede


is that fair ?

Let me, however, say 'yes' to your answer(i have heard this before, but perhaps you will shed new light)

[jund_el_Mahdi]

I am learning always as you are brother. I'm speaking from my own understanding.

Of course whether a mu'min or mu'mina goes to jannah or jahannum is based on deeds, as Allah (swt) is the judge and he is Al 3adl (the Just).

If these 2 people are both great sinners, I don't believe any amount of intercession will help them. A person can not sin his whole life and then ask for intercession at the very end. That shows he didn't believe until the end and now wants to get out of it. Allah (swt) will not be tricked.

Rather there are those who might just be on the edge of the fence. They've done a lot of good in their lives, but also committed many sins. Maybe in their hearts they really are good people and want to be good people. On Yowm al Qiyamah, Prophet (saW) would know this. He would ask Allah (swt) to please spare this mu'min. Allah out of his love for Prophet, would do so.

This is how I understand it, and why in my view and most here, there is no problem in it. Asking for intercession does NOT mean you can forget about all your wajibat. It does not mean you can't ask Allah directly, as I ask him directly all the time.

Likewise, I also will have faults and sins on my record on Yowm al Qiyamah. Prophet's and Ahlul Bayt's intercession can make up for these missing links. This doesn't mean you have a free pass to make some sins and ask for intercession.

It is true, Allah is Al Rahman, Al Ghafoor, and will accept your sincere repentance. Doing tawassul is only an extra shield, a cushion.

[Logical Islam]

That post was written with humility. I realise now tawassul is not wajib, but as an extra devoition.

However, please help me understand this, from what you have said:

> if people are on the fence, surely, God as the best of judges, would know who deserves what ? How do we know if God measures on quantity, rather than context, quality, potentiol, devotion, sincerity ect?

Therefore going to hell or heaven depends on who you get to intercede, rather than God's own justice on what you deserve. Is God in capable of deciding the fate of these people?

ahsant brother. i TRULY want to do tawassul. For now i say things like " o Allah, remember when yahya pbuh said ' o my lord, distress has touched me and you are the merciful of the merciful" by the mercy you showed him, please cure me!"

[Kismet110]

@ Logical Islam: this thread is titled "The Concept Of Love In The Shi'i Creed". The OP didn't mention Ya Ali Madad or tawassul but you managed to even divert the thread to suit your own agenda.

You're a troll without any shame. Stop polluting every (unrelated) thread with the exact same (oft refuted) mumbo-jumbo.

ALI

[Logical Islam]

peace be with you.

read my OP. i said ' This is real love , and not praying to the imams to help you'.

i never meant to start any discussion. i was drawn into it.

The OP tells us the teachings of the Imam. I said, this is TRUE love, and not praying to them.


... i forgive you for accusing me.

Brother, if possible, can i  could i ask you as to why the entire kalimah is not in the Quran, if your signature is to be true ?**

(just wondering. i have always wanted to ask)