153 replies to this topic

[MAFHHM]

I read many traditions that say the qualities of an Imam(A) is that he(A) does not make mistakes.

However, then I come across the following tradition where the Imam(A) made a mistake, and then corrected himself:

And from him from ibn Abi `Umayr from `Amr b. Adheena from Muhammad b. Muslim.

He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã say: After his appearance, the Sufyani will rule over five places in the same timespan as a woman’s pregnancy. Then he Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said: I seek forgiveness from Allah, the pregnancy of a camel. And this is from the guaranteed matters that must occur. (Tusi’s Ghayba)

(sahih) (ÕÍíÍ)

[muslimunity1]

Aslamalaykum,

@MAFHHM

The general rule is any hadith which is even deemed sahih, if it cannot be explained or reconciled then it has to be rejected because the Prophets and the Imams do not have in flaws in them, they do not commit any mistake intentional or unintentional.

Mainly because it contradicts verse 33:33 and other established narrations.

[MAFHHM]

Wasalam wr wb.
Or it could be that, the narrator corrected himself , not the ImamÚáíå ÇáÓáÇã.

[Haydar Husayn]

How does being sinless imply that the Imams can't even misspeak?

[Hot hot]

I think there is a mistake in narration

[struggling_On]

Haydar Husayn, on 27 August 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

How does being sinless imply that the Imams can't even misspeak?

This is because imams(As) don't eat up their words after saying, That's sign of weakness itself, i hope the following incident will help which i'm quoting from a book.

Valour Of Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s)
Once, Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq (a.s) delivered a sermon in the Holy Mecca and said, “We are the favorite and chosen servants of God, and His vicegerents on the face of the earth. One who obeys us is successful and one who opposes would be evil and wretched.”
Someone conveyed these statements to Hisham, the ruler of Syria. He summoned Imam Ja'far as Sadiq (a.s) and Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s) to Damascus. When the two Holy Imams (a.s) reached the court of Syria, Hisham was practicing archery with his officials. He said to Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s): You also try shooting the target. Imam (a.s) said, “I have become aged and cannot perform archery.” Hisham said in a taunting manner, “You are the selected servant of God. You claim that you possess special expertise in every field. Archery in easy for you.” Saying this he gestured his men to hand over to the Imam the bow and arrows. Imam (a.s) took hold of the bow, fixed an arrow and shot it at the eye of the target. It hit the target right at the center. The Imam fixed another arrow and shot it. It penetrated into the tail of the first arrow. He continued till he had shot altogether nine arrows one after the other. Seeing this unimaginable feat Hisham was embarrassed.
He did not utter a word for a long time. The two Holy Imams (a.s) also remained silent for sometime. Then Imam Baqir (a.s) became infuriated. Hisham gauged his moods and he seated each of them beside himself and said, “It seems you have a lot of practice in archery. From where did you receive coaching in this skill?” Imam (a.s), “We are the Ahl ul-Bayt of the Prophet. Do not compare our knowledge and perfection to others. We received these perfections in inheritance. The earth can never remain devoid of us. We are perfect in every matter and other people are deficient in reaching our level.” Upon hearing this reply, Hisham was filled with anger and he said, “Do you claim that the people of the time are obliged to obey you?” Imam (a.s) replied without any fear or hesitation, “Indeed! We are those vested with authority (Ulil Amr).” Hisham said, “But your command is effective nowhere.” Imam said, “Those who do not consider us Ulil Amr, are sinners.” The anger of Hisham intensified. He said, “Am I also not Ulil Amr?” Imam (a.s) replied, “You are a king, made by the people and we are Ulil Amr, appointed by Allah.” Hisham decided that further debate in front of the courtiers was not advisable and thus he ordered that the father and son may be taken at such and such place and kept under detention. When the Imams (a.s) were leaving, someone remarked, “You were audacious to speak in such a manner before the ruler. Thank God he did not order your execution immediately.” Imam (a.s) said, “We Ahl ul-Bayt (a.s) are the announcers of Allah's word and exposers of the truth. We never hesitate in it and we are never afraid of death.”

Edited by struggling_On, 27 August 2012 - 09:04 AM.

[kadhim]

There are, as I recall, narrations that clearly say that yes, contrary to common lay understanding, the aimmah were / are capable of mis-speaking and forgetting as all humans are, and that these narrations are accepted and authentic. I'll leave it to those more versed to quote.

[muslimunity1]

Aslamalaykum,

@Struggling on

JazakAllah

@Khadhim

Quote

There are, as I recall, narrations that clearly say that yes, contrary to common lay understanding, the aimmah were / are capable of mis-speaking and forgetting as all humans are, and that these narrations are accepted and authentic. I'll leave it to those more versed to quote.

Imam (a.s), “We are the Ahl ul-Bayt of the Prophet. Do not compare our knowledge and perfection to others. We received these perfections in inheritance. The earth can never remain devoid of us. We are perfect in every matter and other people are deficient in reaching our level.”

Even the Prophets are not on the level of the Ahlul Bayt a.s and your comparing us to them, it seems like you've never read the narration properly that the brother quoted you.

[kadhim]

Leaving aside some rather questionable red flag elements of this narration, it is not the only one in the book. There are other narrations that report them being capable of forgetting minor things, mis-speaking and correcting, etc. I don't think it's controversial.

Edited by kadhim, 27 August 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[Haydar Husayn]

struggling_On, on 27 August 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

This is because imams(As) don't eat up their words after saying, That's sign of weakness itself, i hope the following incident will help which i'm quoting from a book.

Valour Of Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s)
Once, Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq (a.s) delivered a sermon in the Holy Mecca and said, “We are the favorite and chosen servants of God, and His vicegerents on the face of the earth. One who obeys us is successful and one who opposes would be evil and wretched.”
Someone conveyed these statements to Hisham, the ruler of Syria. He summoned Imam Ja'far as Sadiq (a.s) and Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s) to Damascus. When the two Holy Imams (a.s) reached the court of Syria, Hisham was practicing archery with his officials. He said to Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s): You also try shooting the target. Imam (a.s) said, “I have become aged and cannot perform archery.” Hisham said in a taunting manner, “You are the selected servant of God. You claim that you possess special expertise in every field. Archery in easy for you.” Saying this he gestured his men to hand over to the Imam the bow and arrows. Imam (a.s) took hold of the bow, fixed an arrow and shot it at the eye of the target. It hit the target right at the center. The Imam fixed another arrow and shot it. It penetrated into the tail of the first arrow. He continued till he had shot altogether nine arrows one after the other. Seeing this unimaginable feat Hisham was embarrassed.
He did not utter a word for a long time. The two Holy Imams (a.s) also remained silent for sometime. Then Imam Baqir (a.s) became infuriated. Hisham gauged his moods and he seated each of them beside himself and said, “It seems you have a lot of practice in archery. From where did you receive coaching in this skill?” Imam (a.s), “We are the Ahl ul-Bayt of the Prophet. Do not compare our knowledge and perfection to others. We received these perfections in inheritance. The earth can never remain devoid of us. We are perfect in every matter and other people are deficient in reaching our level.” Upon hearing this reply, Hisham was filled with anger and he said, “Do you claim that the people of the time are obliged to obey you?” Imam (a.s) replied without any fear or hesitation, “Indeed! We are those vested with authority (Ulil Amr).” Hisham said, “But your command is effective nowhere.” Imam said, “Those who do not consider us Ulil Amr, are sinners.” The anger of Hisham intensified. He said, “Am I also not Ulil Amr?” Imam (a.s) replied, “You are a king, made by the people and we are Ulil Amr, appointed by Allah.” Hisham decided that further debate in front of the courtiers was not advisable and thus he ordered that the father and son may be taken at such and such place and kept under detention. When the Imams (a.s) were leaving, someone remarked, “You were audacious to speak in such a manner before the ruler. Thank God he did not order your execution immediately.” Imam (a.s) said, “We Ahl ul-Bayt (a.s) are the announcers of Allah's word and exposers of the truth. We never hesitate in it and we are never afraid of death.”

I guess taqiyyah went right out the window on that day...

[Kazmi_202]

I really think one or a few of the brothers well versed in the science of Hadith should gather together the relevant Ahadith on this subject and write a short article.

We would need to establish some sort of 'common ground' as to the criteria used to asses the conclusions. The few articles i have read on the subject by Ayatollah Jaffar Subhani and Sheikh Mansur Legahie state that in this science just because a hadith is Sahih in term of narrators, it does not automatically mean it is correct. Other scholars of Hadith may hold a different opinion, and hence arrive at a different conclusion.

So basically, until we establish a 'common criteria' to be employed, we will always end up with a different conclusion.

Interesting questions to be considered would be:

1. How many ahadith in our literature point out to the fact the Imam's make mistakes?
2. How are these ahadith graded? Do they reach Mutawatir?
3. How many ahadith convey the oppposite opinion? How are they graded?
4. Is it possible to reconcile them all?
5. Has there been an Ijma of the scholars on the subject?

Otherwise we are just 'wondering in darkness' getting no where, me with a hadith that proves my view, and you with a hadith that proves yours. Regardless of the conclusion, we should keep an open mind, as either way, its not the end of the Shia faith, our leaders are still 'Masoom'

[Qa'im]

The narrator could have made the mistake and not the Imam. The publication I was using assumed it was the Imam by putting the . However, here is another version where the is removed.

http://www.m-mahdi.c...ook/007/002.htm

I don't want to interject my interpretation so I will leave it open by removing the .

[ילדת מלך]

Haydar Husayn, on 27 August 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

I guess taqiyyah went right out the window on that day...

Haider---is it just a jibe or did you mean to say that there seemed to be some incongruity about the said narration ?---I am sorry for asking you this but I could not understand it, otherwise I ,definitely , would have avoided this question

[kadhim]

Well, the narration is kind of ... suspicious in its contents. I mean, I wouldn't speak too hastily before seeing a formal analysis of it, but, on the surface ... suspicious.

[ילדת מלך]

kadhim, on 27 August 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

Well, the narration is kind of ... suspicious in its contents. I mean, I wouldn't speak too hastily before seeing a formal analysis of it, but, on the surface ... suspicious.

Suspicious on what grounds ?---like the explicit claim of the superiority ? ---or what--?

PS---I am not a troll, I am genuinely ignorant--

[kadhim]

ילדת מלך, on 27 August 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

Suspicious on what grounds ?---like the explicit claim of the superiority ? ---or what--?

PS---I am not a troll, I am genuinely ignorant--

The very forward tone that Haydar mentioned is one thing, but there's also the beyond super-human marksman bit at the beginning. It's all kind of fantastical and seemingly exaggerated and has the feel of a made up story. But, again, I'd wait for an actual analysis before speaking too decisively.

[Cake]

MAFHHM, on 27 August 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

I read many traditions that say the qualities of an Imam(A) is that he(A) does not make mistakes.

When you read the word "mistake" in an English translation, know that the word can be quite vague. There are different types of mistakes.

Quote

However, then I come across the following tradition where the Imam(A) made a mistake, and then corrected himself: And from him from ibn Abi `Umayr from `Amr b. Adheena from Muhammad b. Muslim. He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã say: After his appearance, the Sufyani will rule over five places in the same timespan as a woman’s pregnancy. Then he Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said: I seek forgiveness from Allah, the pregnancy of a camel. And this is from the guaranteed matters that must occur. (Tusi’s Ghayba) (sahih) (ÕÍíÍ)

This hadeeth is not saheeh.
No tareeq is given by shaykh at-Tusi for this hadeeth which confuses matters.
If we presume that the hadeeth was transmitted by the turuq given in Fihrist, because no tareeq is given for the hadeeth and because Tusi says in Fihrist:
ÃÎÈÑäÇ (ÈÑæÇíÇÊå æ ßÊÈå) ÃÈæ ÚÈÏ Çááå Úä ãÍãÏ Èä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓíä Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ÅÏÑíÓ Úä Úáí Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÞÊíÈÉ Úä ÇáÝÖá. æ ÑæÇåÇ ãÍãÏ Èä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓíä Úä ÍãÒÉ Èä ãÍãÏ ÇáÚáæí Úä ÃÈí äÕÑ ÞäÈÑ Èä Úáí Èä ÔÇÐÇä Úä ÃÈíå Úä ÇáÝÖá
then the two tareeqs are majhool because, as sayyid al-Khui says:
ßãÇ Ãä ßáÇ ØÑíÞí ÇáÔíÎ ÖÚíÝ¡ ÇáÃæá ÈÚáí Èä ãÍãÏ æ ÇáËÇäí ÈÍãÒÉ Èä ãÍãÏ æ ãä ÈÚÏå.äÚã Åä ØÑíÞ ÇáÔíÎ Åáíå Ýí ÇáãÔíÎÉ ÕÍíÍ.

(If we go turn back pages before the hadeeth in kitab al-Ghaybah until we see a tareeq to al-Fadhl given, then it is:
5 - ÃÍãÏ Èä ÅÏÑíÓ ¡ Úä Úáí Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÞÊíÈÉ ¡ Úä ÇáÝÖá Èä ÔÇÐÇä
and this is the one of the two tareeqs in Fihrist and it is majhool because of al-Qutaybi).

muslimunity1, on 27 August 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

Aslamalaykum, @MAFHHM The general rule is any hadith which is even deemed sahih, if it cannot be explained or reconciled then it has to be rejected because the Prophets and the Imams do not have in flaws in them, they do not commit any mistake intentional or unintentional. Mainly because it contradicts verse 33:33 and other established narrations.

That is your interpretation of 33:33.
What rule is this? Please quote, or provide references to, books of scholars where this rule is mentioned.
Read http://www.tashayyu....-ten/chapter-22
In my experience, scholars usually perform tawaqquf unless the narration is very problematic. In this case, the hadeeth is hardly, if even, problematic.

MAFHHM, on 27 August 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

Wasalam wr wb. Or it could be that, the narrator corrected himself , not the ImamÚáíå ÇáÓáÇã.

A possibility indeed.

ÅËÈÇÊ ÇáåÏÇÉ : Ì 3 Õ 729 È‍ 34 Ý‍ 6 Í‍ 63 - Úä ÛíÈÉ ÇáØæÓí . æÞÇá ( ÃÞæá : åÐÇ ÅíåÇã æÊÔßíß áÇ Ôß æÛáØ ¡ ãÚ ÇÍÊãÇá ßæäå ãä ÇáÑÇæí ) .
Korani then comments:
ãáÇÍÙÉ : ( íÈÏæ Ãä ÓÈÈ ÅÔßÇá ÕÇÍÈ ÅËÈÇÊ ÇáåÏÇÉ Ãä ÊÑÏÏ ÇáÇãÇã Èíä ÊÓÚÉ ÃÔåÑ æËäí ÚÔÑ íäÇÝí ÚÕãÊå ¡ Ãæ Ãä Íãá ÇáÌãá ÛíÑ æÇÑÏ áÃäå ÇÓã ááÈÇÒá ÇáãÊÞÏã Ýí ÇáÓä ÇáÐí áÇ íÍãá Ãæ ÇÓã ááãÐßÑ ÎÇÕÉ ) .

struggling_On, on 27 August 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

This is because imams(As) don't eat up their words after saying, That's sign of weakness itself, i hope the following incident will help which i'm quoting from a book. Valour Of Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s) Once, Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq (a.s) delivered a sermon in the Holy Mecca and said, “We are the favorite and chosen servants of God, and His vicegerents on the face of the earth. One who obeys us is successful and one who opposes would be evil and wretched.” Someone conveyed these statements to Hisham, the ruler of Syria. He summoned Imam Ja'far as Sadiq (a.s) and Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s) to Damascus. When the two Holy Imams (a.s) reached the court of Syria, Hisham was practicing archery with his officials. He said to Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s): You also try shooting the target. Imam (a.s) said, “I have become aged and cannot perform archery.” Hisham said in a taunting manner, “You are the selected servant of God. You claim that you possess special expertise in every field. Archery in easy for you.” Saying this he gestured his men to hand over to the Imam the bow and arrows. Imam (a.s) took hold of the bow, fixed an arrow and shot it at the eye of the target. It hit the target right at the center. The Imam fixed another arrow and shot it. It penetrated into the tail of the first arrow. He continued till he had shot altogether nine arrows one after the other. Seeing this unimaginable feat Hisham was embarrassed. He did not utter a word for a long time. The two Holy Imams (a.s) also remained silent for sometime. Then Imam Baqir (a.s) became infuriated. Hisham gauged his moods and he seated each of them beside himself and said, “It seems you have a lot of practice in archery. From where did you receive coaching in this skill?” Imam (a.s), “We are the Ahl ul-Bayt of the Prophet. Do not compare our knowledge and perfection to others. We received these perfections in inheritance. The earth can never remain devoid of us. We are perfect in every matter and other people are deficient in reaching our level.” Upon hearing this reply, Hisham was filled with anger and he said, “Do you claim that the people of the time are obliged to obey you?” Imam (a.s) replied without any fear or hesitation, “Indeed! We are those vested with authority (Ulil Amr).” Hisham said, “But your command is effective nowhere.” Imam said, “Those who do not consider us Ulil Amr, are sinners.” The anger of Hisham intensified. He said, “Am I also not Ulil Amr?” Imam (a.s) replied, “You are a king, made by the people and we are Ulil Amr, appointed by Allah.” Hisham decided that further debate in front of the courtiers was not advisable and thus he ordered that the father and son may be taken at such and such place and kept under detention. When the Imams (a.s) were leaving, someone remarked, “You were audacious to speak in such a manner before the ruler. Thank God he did not order your execution immediately.” Imam (a.s) said, “We Ahl ul-Bayt (a.s) are the announcers of Allah's word and exposers of the truth. We never hesitate in it and we are never afraid of death.”

This narration is very probably dha`eef judging by its very unlikely matn. The Imams practised taqiyyah alot; it is unlikely that Imam as-Sadiq (A) would give a speech in the open declaring such things - and if that had happened, why do none of the Sunni ruwat report it bearing in mind that Sunnis argue that such statements are falsely attributed to him? - let alone to the caliph himself. Even the last sentence is problematic as there are narrations that seem to contradict that (although we cannot see the original Arabic wording of the sentence). I attempted to search for its source but I did not find it - (it is difficult searching for an Arabic narration when you only have an English translation). Does your book state the source source?

Edited by Cake, 27 August 2012 - 02:07 PM.

[Haydar Husayn]

ילדת מלך, on 27 August 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

Haider---is it just a jibe or did you mean to say that there seemed to be some incongruity about the said narration ?---I am sorry for asking you this but I could not understand it, otherwise I ,definitely , would have avoided this question

Well, it's more than a little odd for the Imam, who would be doing taqiyya when answering questions from his followers on relatively small matters of fiqh to then go so openly admit to all these things in front of the Caliph. Not only that, but to make it clear who the next Imam was after him.

Historically, both of these points are very strange, and completely at odds with the usual behaviour of the Imams .

[MAFHHM]

@ Cake

I got the grading from tashayyu.org

It was graded as "Sahih" there.

[Qa'im]

MAFHHM, on 27 August 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

@ Cake

I got the grading from tashayyu.org

It was graded as "Sahih" there.

That's my grading. I've been going through a new revision of Qiyamul Qaim and inshaAllah I will be updating it soon. The actual chain to the hadith is sahih, but as Cake pointed out, Tusi's tariqa to Fadl is majhool by's Khoei's standard. One can argue for the strengthening of `Ali b. Muhammad b. Qutayba but it's not unanimous.

[muhibb-ali]

Salam

Cake, on 27 August 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

That is your interpretation of 33:33.
What rule is this? Please quote, or provide references to, books of scholars where this rule is mentioned.
Read http://www.tashayyu....-ten/chapter-22
In my experience, scholars usually perform tawaqquf unless the narration is very problematic. In this case, the hadeeth is hardly, if even, problematic.

What brother Muslim Unity mean was 'Leaving the narrations that are contradictory to the Quran'.
Read here: http://www.tashayyu....ry-to-the-quran

And we have this verse in the Holy Quran:

æóãóÇ ÊóÔóÇÁõæäó ÅöáóøÇ Ãóä íóÔóÇÁó Çááóøåõ ÑóÈõø ÇáúÚóÇáóãöíäó
"And ye shall not will except as Allah wills,- the Cherisher of the Worlds."   [Al Quran, 81:29]

And the following narration to add on to it:

ÚãÑ Èä ãÍãÏ ÇáÕíÑÝí Úä ãÍãÏ Èä åãÇã Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ÅÏÑíÓ Úä ÇÈä ÚíÓì Úä Úáí Èä ÇáäÚãÇä¡ Úä ÝÖíá Èä ÚËãÇä¡ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ÔÑíÍ ÞÇá: ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏ Çááå ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã íÞæá: Åä Çááå ÝÑÖ æáÇíÊäÇ¡ æ ÃæÌÈ ãæÏÊäÇ. æÇááå ãÇ äÞæá ÈÃåæÇÆäÇ¡ æáÇ äÚãá ÈÂÑÇÆäÇ¡ æáÇ äÞæá ÅáÇ ãÇ ÞÇá ÑÈäÇ ÚÒæÌá

Abu Hafs Umar b. Muhammad al-Sayrafi reported to me from Muhammad b. Hammam al-Askafi who reported from Ahmad b. Idrees, who reported from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Isa al-Asha'ri, from Ali b. No-man, from Fudhail b. Uthman, from Muhammad b. Shurayh who said, I heard Abu Abdillah Jafar bin Muhammad say:

"Surely, Allah has enforced our authority, and made it obligatory upon people to love us. By Allah, we do not say anything out of caprice or our desire, and we do not act according to our views. We do not say except that which our Lord, Most High, has said."

[Source: Al Amali - Sheikh Mufeed Majalis-7 Hadees-4]
http://www.marefatea...ch-of-the-imams


So if Imam is to forget then it would well be Allah (swt) who forgot??

Quote

This narration is very probably dha`eef judging by its very unlikely matn. The Imams practised taqiyyah alot; it is unlikely that Imam as-Sadiq (A) would give a speech in the open declaring such things - and if that had happened, why do none of the Sunni ruwat report it bearing in mind that Sunnis argue that such statements are falsely attributed to him? - let alone to the caliph himself. Even the last sentence is problematic as there are narrations that seem to contradict that (although we cannot see the original Arabic wording of the sentence). I attempted to search for its source but I did not find it - (it is difficult searching for an Arabic narration when you only have an English translation). Does your book state the source source?

I dont see any problem with the Matn. uncertainty based on Taqiyyah cannot be used to not accept a narration.

Wassalam

Edited by muhibb-ali, 28 August 2012 - 12:59 AM.

[Cake]

muhibb-ali, on 28 August 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

What brother Muslim Unity mean was 'Leaving the narrations that are contradictory to the Quran'.
Read here: http://www.tashayyu....ry-to-the-quran

It is his interpretation of 33:33 that the hadeeth contradicts (http://www.revivinga...s-in-islam.html). I might argue that Imams can misspeak and then correct themselves; perhaps I might argue that the Imam was corrected by His inspiration and that this is isma. In other words, one cannot impose a personal understanding of isma to reject what could be correct. If the narration had said that the Imam had lied or sinned or similar, then the authenticity of the hadeeth would be under serious doubt. However, the Imam correctng himself immediately after leaves it open to being authentic.

Quote

And we have this verse in the Holy Quran:

æóãóÇ ÊóÔóÇÁõæäó ÅöáóøÇ Ãóä íóÔóÇÁó Çááóøåõ ÑóÈõø ÇáúÚóÇáóãöíäó
"And ye shall not will except as Allah wills,- the Cherisher of the Worlds."   [Al Quran, 81:29]

"And you shall" is plural. The verse means something along the lines that some/all people will not do such-and-such-good-thing unless God wills us.

Quote

And the following narration to add on to it:

ÚãÑ Èä ãÍãÏ ÇáÕíÑÝí Úä ãÍãÏ Èä åãÇã Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ÅÏÑíÓ Úä ÇÈä ÚíÓì Úä Úáí Èä ÇáäÚãÇä¡ Úä ÝÖíá Èä ÚËãÇä¡ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ÔÑíÍ ÞÇá: ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏ Çááå ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã íÞæá: Åä Çááå ÝÑÖ æáÇíÊäÇ¡ æ ÃæÌÈ ãæÏÊäÇ. æÇááå ãÇ äÞæá ÈÃåæÇÆäÇ¡ æáÇ äÚãá ÈÂÑÇÆäÇ¡ æáÇ äÞæá ÅáÇ ãÇ ÞÇá ÑÈäÇ ÚÒæÌá

Abu Hafs Umar b. Muhammad al-Sayrafi reported to me from Muhammad b. Hammam al-Askafi who reported from Ahmad b. Idrees, who reported from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Isa al-Asha'ri, from Ali b. No-man, from Fudhail b. Uthman, from Muhammad b. Shurayh who said, I heard Abu Abdillah Jafar bin Muhammad say:

"Surely, Allah has enforced our authority, and made it obligatory upon people to love us. By Allah, we do not say anything out of caprice or our desire, and we do not act according to our views. We do not say except that which our Lord, Most High, has said."

Are you interpreting this to mean that they are effectively His mouthpiece? The correct meaning is explained with the previous sentences.

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I dont see any problem with the Matn. uncertainty based on Taqiyyah cannot be used to not accept a narration.

If you do not see any problem with the matn, then you need to read more ahadeeth, become more familiar with the contradictions in fiqh and with the accounts about the Shi`a in those days. Perhaps then one might better understand the amount of taqiyyah employed by the Aimmah.  Haydar Husayn said it well. That's not to say that the hadeeth is certainly a fabrication, but rather that there is a question mark regarding its authenticity and that we should investigate its authenticity - (certainly beyond just quoting it and attributing it to to the Imam).

Haydar Husayn, on 27 August 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

Well, it's more than a little odd for the Imam, who would be doing taqiyya when answering questions from his followers on relatively small matters of fiqh to then go so openly admit to all these things in front of the Caliph. Not only that, but to make it clear who the next Imam was after him.

Historically, both of these points are very strange, and completely at odds with the usual behaviour of the Imams .

Exactly. Well-said.

In any case, I would like to see a source for that narration. As I said, I was unable to find it myself.

Edited by Cake, 28 August 2012 - 10:44 PM.

[muhibb-ali]

Salam.

Cake, on 28 August 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

It is his interpretation of 33:33 that the hadeeth contradicts (http://www.revivinga...s-in-islam.html). I might argue that Imams can misspeak and then correct themselves; perhaps I might argue that the Imam was corrected by His inspiration and that this is isma. In other words, one cannot impose a personal understanding of isma to reject what could be correct. If the narration had said that the Imam had lied or sinned or similar, then the authenticity of the hadeeth would be under serious doubt. However, the Imam correctng himself immediately after leaves it open to being authentic.

See the part in RED.
If we consider the other verses which clearly state that the AhlulBait do only what Allah (swt) wills then you will clearly see this to be against the Quran also.

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"And you shall" is plural. The verse means something along the lines that some/all people will not do such-and-such-good-thing unless God wills us.

Is that your personal interpretation? http://www.revivinga...s-in-islam.html

The construct of the verse clearly shown that complete will (100%) of some creations is the will of Allah (swt) without exceptions. Don't understand how you take this to be meaning to other than the Infallible's.

Here are a couple of narrations to add to it.

Note: There is another verse with the same meaning i.e. 76:30

Ëã ÞÇá : æÌÆÊ ÊÓÃáå Úä ãÞÇáÉ ÇáãÝæÖÉ ¡ ßÐÈæÇ¡ Èá ÞáæÈäÇ ÃæÚíÉ áãÔíÉ Çááå ¡ ÝÅÐÇ ÔÇÁ ÔÆäÇ ¡ æÇááå íÞæá :æãÇ ÊÔÂÄæä ÅáÇÃä íÔÂÁ Çááå

Imam Hasan Askar said,

"You have come to ask about the Mufaw'wiza. They (Mufaw'wiza) have lied. But our hearts are containers of the Will of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, so when Allah (swt) wills, We will. And Allah (swt) has said, "And you will not will, but as Allah Wills" [Quran 76:30]

[Source: Al-Gaibha - Sheikh Toosi, Pg. 159]

ÍÏËäÇ ãÍãÏ Èä ÌÚÝÑ ÞÇá ÍÏËäÇ ãÍãÏ Èä ÃÍãÏ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ ÇáÓíÇÑí Úä ÝáÇä Úä ÃÈí ÇáÍÓä Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ÞÇá: Åä Çááå ÌÚá ÞáæÈ ÇáÃÆãÉ ãæÑÏÇ áÅÑÇÏÊå ÝÅÐÇ ÔÇÁ Çááå ÔíÆÇ ÔÇÄå æåæ Þæáå æãÇ ÊÔÇÄä ÅáÇ íÔÇÁ Çááå ÑÈ ÇáÚÇáãíä

Abal Hasan (Imam Kazim ) said:

“Verily Allah (swt) has made the hearts of the Imam’s the source/place of this Will. If Allah (swt) wills something, They also Will the same. And it is as He said, “But ye will not, except as Allah wills.”

[Source: Tafseer Al-Qummi Vol.2 Pg. 409]

http://www.marefatea...ilayat-of-Allah

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Are you interpreting this to mean that they are effectively His mouthpiece? The correct meaning is explained with the previous sentences.

Its the Imam's who actually mean it that way.

Read the below authentic narration:

ãÍãÏ Èä ãÓáã¡ ÞÇá: ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏÇááå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã íÞæá: Åä ááå ÚÒæÌá ÎáÞÇ ÎáÞåã ãä äæÑå¡ æÑÍãÉ ãä ÑÍãÊå áÑÍãÊå¡ Ýåã Úíä Çááå ÇáäÇÙÑÉ¡ æÇÐäå ÇáÓÇãÚÉ¡ æáÓÇäå ÇáäÇØÞ Ýí ÎáÞå ÈÇÐäå¡ æÇãäÇÄå Úáì ãÇÃäÒá ãä ÚÐÑ ÃæäÐÑ ÃæÍÌÉ¡ ÝÈåã íãÍæ Çááå ÇáÓíÆÇÊ¡ æÈåã íÏÝÚ ÇáÖíã¡ æÈåã íäÒá ÇáÑÍãÉ¡ æÈåã íÍíí ãíÊÇ æíãíÊ ÍíÇ¡ æÈåã íÈÊáí ÎáÞå¡ æÈåã íÞÖí Ýí ÎáÞå ÞÖíÉ.
ÞáÊ: ÌÚáÊ ÝÏÇß ãä åÄáÇÁ¿ ÞÇá: ÇáÇæÕíÇÁ.

My father - Allah have mercy on Him - said: Sa`d b. `Abdullah narrated to us, he said: Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa narrated to us, from Hasan b. Sa`eed, from Fudalah b. Ayyub, from Abban b. `Uthman, from Muhammad b. Muslim, who said: I heard Aba `Abdillah say:

"Indeed Allah, Mighty and Exalted, created certain creatures from His light, and a mercy from His mercy for the sake of His Mercy. For these are the eye of Allah that sees, and His ear that hears, and His tongue that speaks to His creation by His permission, and the safeguards over what has descended from (His) justifications and warnings and proofs. And through them He wards off grievances, and through them He sends down mercy, and through them He enlivens the dead, and causes to die the living. And through them He afflicts His creation (with tribulations), and through them He judges cases among His creation."

I asked: May I be your ransom - Who are these?

He replied: Al-Awsiyaa (the vice-regents).

[Source: Al-Tawheed by Sheikh Sadooq, Pg 167, H 24]

Note: Authentic Hadees as per the chain of narrators. Other than the chain of narrators, similar content has come in multiple narrations hence the content is even Mutawaatir (frequently narrated).

Had the above narration only said, "tongue of Allah" then one could argue that this is only a figurative/poetic expression. But the words in the narration are "Tongue of Allah that speaks to his creation" which leaves no doubt that what the Imam's speak is nothing but the words of Allah (swt) and hence the speech of the Imam's is perfect in all sense.

http://www.marefatea...he-ahlulbait-as

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If you do not see any problem with the matn, then you need to read more ahadeeth, become more familiar with the contradictions in fiqh and with the accounts about the Shi`a in those days. Perhaps then one might better understand the amount of taqiyyah employed by the Aimmah.  Haydar Husayn said it well. That's not to say that the hadeeth is certainly a fabrication, but rather that there is a question mark regarding its authenticity and that we should investigate its authenticity - (certainly beyond just quoting it and attributing it to to the Imam).

Same can be said for you right? We are not in a competition here to find out who has read more narrations.

Surely we need to investigate all narrations not only this one. But its not fair to raise the question of Taqayya based on ones own understanding (or lack of understanding) of the content of the narration. If one person can do that then all can do it and come to individual conclusions.

Also the major portion of the words of the Imam was in the court of Hisham in syria, so it was not among-st the common masses.

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Exactly. Well-said.

In any case, I would like to see a source for that narration. As I said, I was unable to find it myself.

It should be kept in mind that other than Taqiyyah, the Imam's also had the responsibility of Guidance. Hence there had to be and would be instances where things were made crystal clear by the Imam's among-st the masses, so that there is no excuse left.

Wassalam

Edited by muhibb-ali, 29 August 2012 - 12:53 AM.

[kadhim]

Muhibb, there are multiple evident issues with the contents of this narration from post 6. The archery business alone is just a few steps too much. I think the matter would become more than clear upon an analysis of the chains as well. If you really want to move forward a meaningful defense, then I siggest tracking the original source.

[muhibb-ali]

Salam

Brother Kadhim.

The hadees on post no. 6 is not the main topic of this discussion. I would still love to see the exact source and the arabic of the narration. So that along with the chain we can actually look out for similar content (Matn) in other narrations also.

Can brother 'Struggling_ON' or any one else provide a source (either primary or secondary) for the narration?

Wassalam

Edited by muhibb-ali, 29 August 2012 - 01:28 AM.