102 replies to this topic

[yaali313]

is it true that Omar was killed during prayer? if it is than why Allah would give Omar martydom during prayer, that is how Imam Ali died, also did Omar take the caliphate or it was giving to him, what do shia scholars say and what do our Imams say about Omar.

[Hot hot]

When I read the thread title I was like

Ehhhh where is the dislike button

[Wing]

Wiki is your friend


On 3 November 644, Abu Lulu attacked Umar while he was leading the morning prayers, stabbing him six times in the belly and last on the navel, that proved fatal. Umar was left profusely bleeding while Abu Lulu tried to flee, but people from all sides rushed to capture him; in his efforts to escape he is reported to have wounded twelve other people, six or nine of whom later died. At last he was captured but committed suicide using the same dagger. Umar died of the wounds three days later on Sunday, 7 November 644.^[60] Umar is reported to have left the following testament:

Be kind and generous to the Muhajirun and the Ansar. Those out of them who are good, be good to them; those who are bad overlook their lapses. Be good to the people of the conquered lands. They are the outer line of our defense; they are the target of the anger and distress of our enemies. They contribute to our revenues. They should be taxed only on their surplus wealth. Be gracious to the Bedouins as they are the backbone of the Arab nation. I instruct you to be good to the Dhimmis for they are your responsibility. Do not tax them beyond their capacity. Ensure that they pay the Jizya without undue inconvenience. Fear God, and in all that you do keep His pleasure in view. In the matter of people fear God, and in the matter of Allah do not be afraid of the people. With regard to the people, I enjoin upon you to administer justice with an even hand. See that all the legitimate requirements of the people are met. Be concerned for their welfare. Ensure the safety of their person and property. See that the frontiers of our domains are not violated. Take strong steps to guard the frontiers. In the matter of administration do not prefer the rich to the poor. Be hard against those who violate the law. Show them no mercy. Do not rest content until you have brought the miscreants to book. Treat all the people as equal. Be a pillar of strength for those who are weak and oppressed. Those who are strong but do wrong, make them pay for their wrong-doings. In the distribution of booty and other matters be above nepotism. Let no consideration of relationship or selfish interest weigh with you. The Satan is at large; it may tempt you. Rise above all temptations and perform your duties in accordance with the injunctions of Islam. Get guidance from the Holy Quran and Sunnah. Freely consult the wise men around you. Apply your own mind in difficult cases, and seek light from God. Be simple in your living and your habits. Let there be no show or ostentation about you. Lead life as a model Muslim. As you are the leader of the Muslims, justify your leadership by being the best among them all. May God bless you.

As per Umar's will, he was buried next to Al-Masjid al-Nabawi alongside Muhammad and Caliph Abu Bakr by the permission of Aisha.
[edit] Aftermaths

On his death bed Umar vacillated to appoint his successor, however it has been reported that he said that if Abu Ubaidah ibn al-Jarrah, Khalid ibn Walid or Salim, the mawali and freed Persian slave, were alive he would have appointed one of them his successor. Umar finally appointed a committee of six persons comprising,

• Abdur Rahman bin Awf
  
  
• Saad ibn Abi Waqqas
  
  
• Talha ibn Ubaidullah
  
  
• Uthman ibn Affan
  
  
• Ali ibn Abi Talib
  
  
• Zubayr ibn al-Awwam

If what is written is true, the testament is very touching.

[Ali Musaaa :)]

The story of him being killed 'leading' prayer is flawed and probably fabricated.

The main reason being is that they claim he was stabbed leading prayers... But then two strange things happen

1) the Adhan is called... What, hang on a sec. I thought he was killed leading Prayers? If he was leading there prayer there is no way the Adhan would be called especially if someone was stabbed...

2) Umar, suddenly gets up and says he has to pray (Dispite being stabbed)

I heard a Sunni speaker discuss rhe death of Umar and he narrated how he was leading prayer and then stabbed and then Adhan went off and then he got up to pray...

[Hasan0404]

yaali313, on 19 August 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

is it true that Omar was killed during prayer? if it is than why Allah would give Omar martydom during prayer, that is how Imam Ali died, also did Omar take the caliphate or it was giving to him, what do shia scholars say and what do our Imams say about Omar.

Man who said getting killed during Prayer means one is Martyr? or getting killed during Ramadhan, or some holy day makes one Shaheed?

[Repentant]

Hasan0404, on 20 August 2012 - 01:00 AM, said:

Man who said getting killed during Prayer means one is Martyr? or getting killed during Ramadhan, or some holy day makes one Shaheed?

Sallam Alykum,

I think doing anything for the sake of Allah and Islam and dying at it makes you a martyr. So driving to the mosque but dying on the way for example makes you a martyr.

"The Prophet said, ‘Whoever sincerely asks Allah to grant him martyrdom, Allah makes him attain the station of the martyrs, even if he dies in his own bed." [Sahihe Muslim, no. 1909]

"The Prophet said, ‘Whoever loves someone passionately, then suppresses his love in order to remain chaste and dies in the process, is a martyr." [Kanz al-`Ummal, no. 11203]

"The Prophet said, ‘Whoever dies loving the household of Muhammad dies a martyr." [Bihar al-Anwar, v. 68, p. 137, no. 76]

"Imam Zayn al-Abidin said, ‘Whoever dies accepting our guardianship during the occultation of the one who will rise up [the awaited twelfth Imam, al-Mahdi], Allah will grant him the reward of a thousand such martyrs as died in the battles of Badr and Uhud" ’[Bihar al-Anwar, v. 82, p. 173, no. 6]

"The Prophet said, ‘Whoever is wounded in the way of Allah will rise up on the Day of Resurrection, his fragrance as sweet as musk and his colour as vibrant as saffron, and he will have the stamp of a martyr on him. And whoever sincerely asks Allah to grant him martyrdom, Allah grants him the reward of a martyr, even if he dies in his own bed." [Kanz al-`Ummal, no. 11144 ]

Edited by Repentant, 20 August 2012 - 02:43 AM.

[Rasul]

[Sonador]

The comments in this video from shias are hilarious.

There were no guards outside or inside the masjids at that time. It was not a masjid of the present time.

People were praying fajr, it was with congregation if I'm not wrong. And when Muslims pray they don't look around to check who is coming to join the jama'at.

And he obviously entered the masjid through the door or whatever..

Another stupid question as how we know it was Abu Lu Lu..we don't care if it was Abu Lu Lu or not in the first place. Someone killed Umar ra and he died by the will of Allah, simple, khallas. We don't curse Abu Lu Lu as a practice of worship by the way. Everyone has to die, so Umar died at the hands of a majoosi slave named as Abu Lu Lu Feroz.

After stabbing Saiyidina Umar ra he killed himself I guess or someone else killed him.

[aquibriz]

yaali313, on 19 August 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

did Omar take the caliphate or it was giving to him, what do shia scholars say and what do our Imams say about Omar.

Here is what our Aimmah has to Say about Abu Bakr,Umar and Uthmaan's Caliphate.

8247 - 1 - Úáí Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã¡ Úä ÃÈíå¡ Úä ÇÈä ÃÈí ÚãíÑ¡ Úä ÚãÑÈä ÇÐíäÉ¡ Úä ÒÑÇÑÉ¡ Úä ÚÈÏÇáßÑíã Èä ÚÊÈÉ ÇáåÇÔãí ÞÇá: ßäÊ ÞÇÚÏÇ ÚäÏ ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ....ÎÇáÝÊåãÇ ÞÏ ÚåÏ ÚãÑ Åáì ÃÈí ÈßÑ ÝÈÇíÚå æáã íÔÇæÑ Ýíå ÃÍÏÇ Ëã ÑÏåÇ ÃÈæÈßÑ Úáíå æáã íÔÇæÑ Ýíå ÃÍÏÇ Ëã ÌÚáåÇ ÚãÑ ÔæÑì Èíä ÓÊÉ æÃÎÑÌ ãäåÇ ÌãíÚ ÇáãåÇÌÑíä æÇáÇäÕÇÑ ÛíÑ ÇæáÆß ÇáÓÊÉ ãä ÞÑíÔ æÃæÕì Ýíåã ÔíÆÇ áÇ ÃÑÇß ÊÑÖì Èå ÃäÊ æáÇÃÕÍÇÈß ÅÐ ÌÚáÊåÇ ÔæÑì Èíä ÌãíÚ ÇáãÓáãíä¡...

Narrated by Ali Ibn Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abu Omeir from Amr Ibn Uthaina from Zurara from Abdel Karim Uthba Al-Hashemi who said:I was sitting in the presence of Abu Abdullah ..

.... Omar pledged his allegiance to Abu Bakr without consulting any man. Abu Bakr passed the caliphate to him without consulting any man. Omar implemented the Shura amongst six and removed all of the Muhajereen (Those who had emigrated to Medina with the Prophet) and the Ansar (The supporters of the prophet in Medina) except for those six men from Quraish. To them he recommended something I do not see you and your companions emulating by desiring to implement Shura amongst all Muslims....


Source:Al-Kafi by Kulayni,Vol 5,Pg 23,H 1
Grading:Majlisi:"Hasan"(Mirat ul Uqool 18/348)

Edited by aquibriz, 20 August 2012 - 08:39 AM.

[shadow_of_light]

Abu Lolo (also known as Piruz Nahavandi) killed Umar because he didnt pay attention to his complaints against injustice. After Umar's death, his son (Ubaidallah) killed Piruz's wife, his little daughter and two other Iranians. Othman didnt punish Ubaidallah for killing the innocent and when Imama Ali(a) became Caliph, he (Ubaidallah) escaped from him and joint Muawia and was killed in Saffayn war.

[Hasan0404]

Repentant, on 20 August 2012 - 02:41 AM, said:

Sallam Alykum,

I think doing anything for the sake of Allah and Islam and dying at it makes you a martyr. So driving to the mosque but dying on the way for example makes you a martyr.

"The Prophet said, ‘Whoever sincerely asks Allah to grant him martyrdom, Allah makes him attain the station of the martyrs, even if he dies in his own bed." [Sahihe Muslim, no. 1909]

"The Prophet said, ‘Whoever loves someone passionately, then suppresses his love in order to remain chaste and dies in the process, is a martyr." [Kanz al-`Ummal, no. 11203]

"The Prophet said, ‘Whoever dies loving the household of Muhammad dies a martyr." [Bihar al-Anwar, v. 68, p. 137, no. 76]

"Imam Zayn al-Abidin said, ‘Whoever dies accepting our guardianship during the occultation of the one who will rise up [the awaited twelfth Imam, al-Mahdi], Allah will grant him the reward of a thousand such martyrs as died in the battles of Badr and Uhud" ’[Bihar al-Anwar, v. 82, p. 173, no. 6]

"The Prophet said, ‘Whoever is wounded in the way of Allah will rise up on the Day of Resurrection, his fragrance as sweet as musk and his colour as vibrant as saffron, and he will have the stamp of a martyr on him. And whoever sincerely asks Allah to grant him martyrdom, Allah grants him the reward of a martyr, even if he dies in his own bed." [Kanz al-`Ummal, no. 11144 ]

Brother here we are talking about Omar, i think u misunderstood me. Omar did nothing of the above. and yes every act of a Momin leads him to Allah, its true indeed.

[Umm Huraira]

You guys always mention Abu Lolo, but you've never given any references.

[Hasan0404]

Sonador, on 20 August 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

After stabbing Saiyidina Umar ra he killed himself I guess or someone else killed him.

He fled safe and sound and reached his people. He didnt kill himself.

[Wing]

shadow_of_light, on 20 August 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

Abu Lolo (also known as Piruz Nahavandi) killed Umar because he didnt pay attention to his complaints against injustice. After Umar's death, his son (Ubaidallah) killed Piruz's wife, his little daughter and two other Iranians. Othman didnt punish Ubaidallah for killing the innocent and when Imama Ali(a) became Caliph, he (Ubaidallah) escaped from him and joint Muawia and was killed in Saffayn war.

^Yea, read this in wiki 2. His son went nuts and sought to kill all the persians. he killed Hormuzan, Jafinah and (little?) daughter of Abu Lulu, the 2 men he killed were kinda in the plot. Upon hearing this, Umar ordered to imprison his son and to be judged by the next Caliph. Though Uthman let him out, paying blood money to the family of the victims. While Ali said he should be executed. Umar just died, killing his son 'the next day' may have caused a huge riot, maybe ending in a total massacre.

So I kinda agree with not killing his son for the sake of avoiding something bigger. Though he should have been kept in prison.

Anyway, whoever takes these kind of stories as serious as the greeks took their mythology, certainly needs help.

*edit*

Hasan0404, on 20 August 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Omar did nothing of the above. and yes every act of a Momin leads him to Allah, its true indeed.

^ Proof instead of bla bla.

Hasan0404, on 20 August 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

He fled safe and sound and reached his people. He didnt kill himself.

Look a miracle! You mean to tell me, he outran every muslim in the mosque and arrived as decorated hero to his ppl, cheering him up with music, flowers and a red carpet?

What sounds more logic, your story or the one from Wiki?
< doesn't believe in mythology btw...

Edited by Wing, 20 August 2012 - 10:25 AM.

[Hasan0404]

Wing, on 20 August 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

^ Proof instead of bla bla.


haha, proof. This bla bla has been proved again and again and again. You seem new.

Look a miracle! You mean to tell me, he outran every muslim in the mosque and arrived as decorated hero to his ppl, cheering him up with music, flowers and a red carpet?

This is not a story from my pocket. Accounts say he reached Iran Alive. Indeed they appreciated him coz Iranian were oppressed at the hands of arabs. Abu lu lu is known as Peroz, the Victor.

[Sonador]

Hasan0404, on 20 August 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

He fled safe and sound and reached his people. He didnt kill himself.

It sounds pretty much nonsensical to believe in the above. He was not able to flee anywhere, Saiyidina Umar's khilafah extended to Persia too. And suppose he fled; now Imam Ali neither caught killers of the 2nd khalifah nor the 3rd khalifah after taking over.

Hasan0404, on 20 August 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

This is not a story from my pocket. Accounts say he reached Iran Alive. Indeed they appreciated him coz Iranian were oppressed at the hands of arabs. Abu lu lu is known as Peroz, the Victor.

Did this killing of Umar ra do any good to the oppressed Persians or they remained in disgrace for a few more centuries?

Edited by Sonador, 20 August 2012 - 01:51 PM.

[Queen Yoda]

I think its safe to say umar had it coming.

[Wing]

Hasan0404, on 20 August 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

This is not a story from my pocket. Accounts say he reached Iran Alive. Indeed they appreciated him coz Iranian were oppressed at the hands of arabs. Abu lu lu is known as Peroz, the Victor.

Well since there are many stories, wouldn't you choose the most logic one?
But as Sonador said, did anything change after Umar's death at all?
Also, isn't Peroz his actual name and it translates as 'The Victor'. Or...if they gave him that title, Omar was entiteled Farooq(Person who knows right from wrong) the great, would you take Omar's title serious aswell?

Yoda1, on 20 August 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

I think its safe to say umar had it coming.

Is it also safe to assume the same about Ali? o.o

[Queen Yoda]

Wing, on 20 August 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

Well since there are many stories, wouldn't you choose the most logic one?
But as Sonador said, did anything change after Umar's death at all?
Also, isn't Peroz his actual name and it translates as 'The Victor'. Or...if they gave him that title, Omar was entiteled Farooq(Person who knows right from wrong) the great, would you take Omar's title serious aswell?




Is it also safe to assume the same about Ali? o.o

umar was a cruel tyrant who murdered the Prophet's (saw) daughter - you cannot compare him to Imam Ali because he was a good man.

[Sonador]

Yoda1, on 20 August 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

umar was a cruel tyrant who murdered the Prophet's (saw) daughter - you cannot compare him to Imam Ali because he was a good man.

What do you call a person in your faith who sees a crime happen, who sees oppression but doesn't help the oppressed?

[Queen Yoda]

Sonador, on 20 August 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

What do you call a person in your faith who sees a crime happen, who sees oppression but doesn't help the oppressed?

Why do you come to this site wahabi? Just curious what you get out of it.

[ßÑíã]

Sonador, on 20 August 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

What do you call a person in your faith who sees a crime happen, who sees oppression but doesn't help the oppressed?

Are you forgetting that Ali was not given permission to fight due to not having enough supporters, furthermore the disbelievers awaiting combat between muslims so that they can jump in and have us both for dinner? Saving the religion is more of a priority to him.

Don't try get smart with your comments, because justified refutation you will meet.

[Sonador]

Yoda1, on 20 August 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

Why do you come to this site wahabi? Just curious what you get out of it.

This is not the answer to my question. Did I curse you?

ßÑíã, on 20 August 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Are you forgetting that Ali was not given permission to fight due to not having enough supporters, furthermore the disbelievers awaiting combat between muslims so that they can jump in and have us both for dinner? Saving the religion is more of a priority to him.

Don't try get smart with your comments, because justified refutation you will meet.

So after the murder of the 3rd khalifah Islam had become so powerful and strong that it was permitted to cause murder of 100,000 Muslims in wars like Jamal, Siffeen and the rest?

[ßÑíã]

Wing, on 20 August 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

Is it also safe to assume the same about Ali? o.o

Assuming the same about Ali would be labelling yourself a hypocrite - refer to your books to see what the Prophet (S) said about those who have hatred towards Ali .

Edited by ßÑíã, 20 August 2012 - 06:13 PM.

[Sonador]

ßÑíã, on 20 August 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

Assuming the same about Ali would be labelling yourself a hypocrite - refer to your books to see what the Prophet (S) said about those who have hatred towards Ali .

Now that's very defensive or I'd say evasive. It's a genuine question. Wing or I'm not accusing Saiyidina Ali radiyallahu anhu of anything bad. I'm only countering your arguments. Don't hide behind the great personalities. Use your 'justified refutations'.

Edited by Sonador, 20 August 2012 - 06:21 PM.