131 replies to this topic

[quran-alhakeem]

The show on the science channel through the wormhole investigated this question. conclusion we did ivent god! not shocking everybody in the show is atheist even the host but what is intrsting is their experiments can anybody explain to me a refutation fom a beleiver perspective?

[Haydar Karrar]

Believer perspective.......[Edited Out] NO WE DID NOT INVENT GOD!!!!!

Sorry, I need to go....but I'll come back and explain why.......and you are thinking that if I need to go, why not just reply later.....well, everyone loves being the first reply to a thread......so, there you go....ok Fimanilla

[Pascal]

It's quite a long show and a lot of us are rather busy (well i can only speak for myself), could you please just summarise why they say this or lay out a few points? I don't necessarily disagree with it of course nor do i necessarily agree. This is the atheism and philosophy section, so you might run into a few more of those pesky atheists. I'm not American (which is where i assume the science channel is), so, maybe also just introduce what the show is about.

In the time in between, these might be good reading:

https://en.wikipedia...oldid=503025476

https://en.wikipedia...ogy_of_religion

https://en.wikipedia...oldid=506606893

https://en.wikipedia...ogy_of_religion

https://en.wikipedia...lue_of_religion

https://en.wikipedia...ies_of_religion

https://en.wikipedia...oldid=501686747

Edited by kingpomba, 13 August 2012 - 07:16 AM.

[shadow_of_light]

Then, who invented us?!

[Pascal]

shadow_of_light, on 13 August 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

Then, who invented us?!

You're making the false logical step of assuming we need an inventor. It's quite clear through scientific evidence that our species is the result of speciation from ancesteral species, just like all life on earth. In-fact, this is one of the prime reasons people "invented God" or use to need God - to explain where we come from. There were simply no other well supported ideas at the time. Of course, that is now long in the past and we have a very good and well proved idea of where our species originated. That doesn't prove or disprove God, its totally removed from the issue. It's certainly one less argument though.

[Gypsy]

42 minutes is just too long to watch. Can someone who already watched this clip summarize the key points, please. You'll be saving us a whole lot of time.

Edited by Gypsy, 13 August 2012 - 08:44 AM.

[Quisant]

shadow_of_light, on 13 August 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

Then, who invented us?!

The explanation for the origin of man is covered in evolution.

Same as is the origin of our ancestors, down to the origin of the first single-cell organisms.
The origin of those is covered by abiogenesis. A growing and field of study.

The formation of Earth and our solar system is covered by both Geology and Cosmology, which in turn is a subset of physics and astrophysics.  Both of which also study the origin and formation of our universe, including the Big Bang.

Who do you think invented us?
Wslm.
*

quran-alhakeem, on 13 August 2012 - 02:11 AM, said:

The show on the science channel through the wormhole investigated this question. conclusion we did ivent god! not shocking everybody in the show is atheist even the host but what is intrsting is their experiments can anybody explain to me a refutation fom a beleiver perspective?

The conclusion isn't that we invented God.

Which part of the video would you like to refute?
What do you find objectionable in what you have seen?

Wslm.
*

[MysticKnight]

OK.....This was pretty cool.

One thing it shows is that believers are not faking their belief and that whatever reasons we feel God exists, we truly feel that way.

The Divine seems to be a natural feeling of humanity and I found it cool that the Buddhist mind thought differently the Jeudo-Christian Mind when it came to the divine....

Whether it's because we are insecure and trying to make sense of the world, or combination of factors including a flight of the spirit in midst of trying to make sense of the world in a chaotic place, people feel the need to believe in the divine and truly do.

Whether that belief is genuine knowledge or delusion is up to debate, I would say this adds to the theodicy, in which part of the reason of the chaotic world, can be so if our spirits will fly towards God and make that connection to him and that there is honour in that.

Children at young age, believe some sort of spiritual world exists. I found that cool.

[eThErEaL]

quran-alhakeem, on 13 August 2012 - 02:11 AM, said:

The show on the science channel through the wormhole investigated this question. conclusion we did ivent god! not shocking everybody in the show is atheist even the host but what is intrsting is their experiments can anybody explain to me a refutation fom a beleiver perspective?

Basic Summary... and main points.

1) Children's minds are hard wired to believe in a hidden world of spirits.
2) Sacred Essences or Forces easily believed in (we attach importance or value to things if we think they belong to certain people).  (e.g) A pen if believed to be Einstein is more "valuable" than if it were not Einstein's. A item of clothing believed to belong to a serial color would be repulsive.   Religion provides a narrative for belief and facilitates this.
3) Where you feel and see your body is not fused together (using virtual reality).  This Scientifically Explains Outer Body Experiences.
4) Our brains see illusory patterns even in randomness.  This explains why "God made me win the lotto or find the parking spot"
5) Only Humans have the concept of "a mind".  (therefore only humans invented God (as the supreme mind).


I dont really see how any of these things have anything much to do with religion.  why am I not surprised?  In fact if anything it seems to support religious experience.  God created our brains in this way to help us be more religious???

Edited by eThErEaL, 13 August 2012 - 01:39 PM.

[Belial]

Well, clearly it is human nature to make stories up to satisfy our lack of knowledge.  This has occurred time and time again throughout history. But regardless of if people make up stories about creation, it still really doesnt tell us whether or not there is a God.  In one hand it could be a trait that benefits survival, to convince ourselves in an unseen hope.  Likewise it could be an intuition provided to us by a God or some other natural process.

Or, it could even be a combination of the two.

I think that would about summarize the show.

[Hot hot]

Astagfaar this people are educated jahilss

[Belial]

Belial, on 13 August 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

Well, clearly it is human nature to make stories up to satisfy our lack of knowledge.  This has occurred time and time again throughout history. But regardless of if people make up stories about creation, it still really doesnt tell us whether or not there is a God.  In one hand it could be a trait that benefits survival, to convince ourselves in an unseen hope.  Likewise it could be an intuition provided to us by a God or some other natural process.

Or, it could even be a combination of the two.

I think that would about summarize the show.

ok, i watched the show now.  Glad to see my summary was accurate.

[shadow_of_light]

This universe may not have come into existence without any cause or predetermination.

Evolution theory (assuming that it is true), immediate creation and other theories/ hypotheses only show how this universe was created but not who decided to create it and who established the rules.

Edited by shadow_of_light, 14 August 2012 - 03:57 AM.

[Quisant]

shadow_of_light, on 14 August 2012 - 03:57 AM, said:

This universe may not have come into existence without any cause or predetermination.

Evolution theory (assuming that it is true), immediate creation and other theories/ hypotheses only show how this universe was created but not who decided to create it and who established the rules.

Feel free to demonstrate that there is a sentient cause to this universe.

An entity who decided to create and established rules.
*

[Haydar Karrar]

Ok....I'm back!

Now, we could not have invented God, because just look at how complex religion is! You think this just came from nowhere?! How about the prophets? Were every single one of them liars? Yes, I can see where you would get the idea that we invented God...it is clear why anyone would think that. But think about martyrs, Karbala for example....if we invented God, Imam Husayn of all people would know...because he would be part of this "conspiracy", so do you think he would just let him and his family get brutally murdered?

Unless you mean did our minds invent him as as an answer....if this is what you mean, then the case is different. But still, no we could not have invented God in this case, because if we were not smart enough to find other answers besides God, then we were also not smart enough to just start all these extreme and complex belief systems....so there must be a God.

Also, now....just to support my case....when people pray with heart, it usually happens....how do you explain this? Coincidence? Well, my friend, coincidence happens just a few times, this has been happening for millennia!

This is just a summary....but I think it's good enough.

Inshallah I helped.

(and that show is crazy! I just skimmed through it, and around 18:40 it say Texas, Austin....hahahahah...it's supposed to be Austin, Texas.....see what not believing in god does to you?! Hahahah)

Edited by Haydar Karrar, 14 August 2012 - 10:23 AM.

[shadow_of_light]

Do you think that something can happen without any cause? If yes, can you provide any evidence?

[Belial]

Haydar Karrar, on 14 August 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

Ok....I'm back!

Now, we could not have invented God, because just look at how complex religion is! You think this just came from nowhere?! How about the prophets? Were every single one of them liars? Yes, I can see where you would get the idea that we invented God...it is clear why anyone would think that. But think about martyrs, Karbala for example....if we invented God, Imam Husayn of all people would know...because he would be part of this "conspiracy", so do you think he would just let him and his family get brutally murdered?

People with religious beliefs in some cases kill themselves.  So it wouldnt be hard to believe that for religion, people would submit to death by others.  And, christians arent liars either, and yet they say Jesus is God.  So clearly this has nothing to do with being liars.  And look how complex just about anything mankind makes is.  If anything, religion can be seen as more simple than many other things because even children can follow a religion, and many do.

Haydar Karrar, on 14 August 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

Unless you mean did our minds invent him as as an answer....if this is what you mean, then the case is different. But still, no we could not have invented God in this case, because if we were not smart enough to find other answers besides God, then we were also not smart enough to just start all these extreme and complex belief systems....so there must be a God.

It is factual that people in many cases have made up their own complex religions.

Haydar Karrar, on 14 August 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

Also, now....just to support my case....when people pray with heart, it usually happens....how do you explain this? Coincidence? Well, my friend, coincidence happens just a few times, this has been happening for millennia!

When people pray with heart, it happens.  I dont even know what this is referring to.

I think people doubt our own abilities. It amazes me, one minute everyone says "oh mankind is too complex and amazing to exist by random chance!", but then "oh no! we arent complex and amazing enough to make up stories!".

Or people simply doubt the power that we have. They underestimate what we are capable of. Or even more specifically, people underestimate what our mind is capable of.

Edited by Belial, 14 August 2012 - 06:34 PM.

[Pascal]

Haydar Karrar, on 14 August 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

Now, we could not have invented God, because just look at how complex religion is! You think this just came from nowhere?!

I try to be charitable as possible but with all due respect thats one of the silliest arguments i've heard all month.

We can send robotic rovers with amazingly complex computers to mars. We've harnessed the power of splitting atoms apart.  We have computers in our houses that can do billions of calculations in a single second. We can cure all manners of diseases. We can control nature to an extent. We can fly through the air in huge chunks of metal. We have planes that can go at supersonic speeds and you're arguing religion is just beyond us? Such a thing is absurd.

It also creates a problem. Only some religions are right. Either you are contending that Hinduism...Jainism..Shinto...All the old greek religions...all the pagan religions are also invented by the same God as yours and thats why they are complex (i dont think you would pick this option) or that they're not true religions and human made. Hinduism and the greek religions are extraordinarily complex, on the level that Islam is.

Haydar Karrar, on 14 August 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

How about the prophets? Were every single one of them liars?

How about the prophets of all the religions you personally don't believe in, are you calling them liars?

You can see how this works right?

It's like some quote i see circulating: "How does it feel to be an atheist?"
"How does it feel to not believe in Zeus?"
"A little like that" (probably a horrible butchered version of the original)

Haydar Karrar, on 14 August 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

Yes, I can see where you would get the idea that we invented God...it is clear why anyone would think that. But think about martyrs, Karbala for example....if we invented God, Imam Husayn of all people would know...because he would be part of this "conspiracy", so do you think he would just let him and his family get brutally murdered?

People die all the time. Battles and wars happen all throughout history. Like a lot of battles, this was over power and politics? I dont see how this proves a God

Haydar Karrar, on 14 August 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

Unless you mean did our minds invent him as as an answer....if this is what you mean, then the case is different. But still, no we could not have invented God in this case, because if we were not smart enough to find other answers besides God, then we were also not smart enough to just start all these extreme and complex belief systems....so there must be a God.

There are millions if not billions of possible Gods. The ancients had at least 33,000 if i recall correctly. Surely, most of these Gods are invented and you agree with me on this. Why should yours be an exception?

shadow_of_light, on 14 August 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

Do you think that something can happen without any cause? If yes, can you provide any evidence?

I think everything (or almost everything, things like radioactive decay are a bit iffy) has a cause. It's a fallacy to assume that cause is God though. If you're talking about the cosmological argument or that there needs to be a first cause, i agree. The problem is, you cant just say the first cause must be God and so it is true. The first cause could be anything.

Edited by kingpomba, 14 August 2012 - 09:00 PM.

[Gypsy]

Yes, people did invent religions. Where do you think the Jesus son of God came from? And how about worshiping idols that is part of Hinduism?

[Lanatin]

Quote

The first cause could be anything.

No...please. Unless you believe the universe has an inherent sentience (thus making you a pantheist), the first cause is going to be a conscious decision by a conscious being. It doesn't go any further than that. It's very simple really.

[Pascal]

La, on 14 August 2012 - 10:28 PM, said:

No...please. Unless you believe the universe has an inherent sentience (thus making you a pantheist), the first cause is going to be a conscious decision by a conscious being. It doesn't go any further than that. It's very simple really.

Why does it have to be a conscious being? I wasn't talking theology there, i was talking metaphysics and casaul chains ( a -> b -> c). The universe is eternal in one fashion anyway. There was no time or no thing before the big bang so it does not make sense to ask what was before then. The concept of a beggining implies a time before the object existed. Clearly though, taking into consideration there was no time before the universe existed, i don't know if these kind of questions even make sense. So, one objection could be the universe is eternal in a sense.

Even then, just the property of being the first cause isn't much at all. It doesn't prove its anything like a God or a being or conscious. Even if you as you say above believe it must be a being (which i disagree with), it doesn't seem the mere property of causing the universe is worthy of the label God. It doesn't have to be omniscient, omnipotent or omnibenevolent. It doesn't have to continue to exist, this being could of died during the process of creation or something like that. Theres no gaurantee he cares about us or knows about us or wants anything to do with us.

Even then theres no gaurantee it knows or cares about us or that its the God of any particular religion. The religion of this God could of been one of the religions long sinced abandoned by almost everyone or lost to history. His religion could still yet be to come. There could be multiple first causes.

[quran-alhakeem]

The introducton of the idea  of a God is intresting because where did this idea develope? and also the feeling of a divine is real and  proven in this documentry also there is a gene in everbody that hepls even accept the concept of a god coincidence?  and just cause there is many religions it does not necessarily mean their all true like a math problem alot answers only one is right. There is also a documentry of the great flood (noha) and also a documentry about splliting the sea they actually did it! but it was in a controlled lab.

[Haydar Karrar]

Belial, on 14 August 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

People with religious beliefs in some cases kill themselves.  So it wouldnt be hard to believe that for religion, people would submit to death by others.  And, christians arent liars either, and yet they say Jesus is God.  So clearly this has nothing to do with being liars.  And look how complex just about anything mankind makes is.  If anything, religion can be seen as more simple than many other things because even children can follow a religion, and many do.



It is factual that people in many cases have made up their own complex religions.




When people pray with heart, it happens.  I dont even know what this is referring to.

I think people doubt our own abilities. It amazes me, one minute everyone says "oh mankind is too complex and amazing to exist by random chance!", but then "oh no! we arent complex and amazing enough to make up stories!".

Or people simply doubt the power that we have. They underestimate what we are capable of. Or even more specifically, people underestimate what our mind is capable of.

Religion is simple.....ha....said by one who does not get up for Qiyam ul Layl....

Anyway, belief in a creator is nature and common sense of man...if one believe in the theory that we evolved like Pokemon, let him look at the religions from the time we were supposedly evolving like Pokemon, and our brains had not completely developed like they are today....when he sees the beliefs from back then, he will see how complex they are (for the the undeveloped brain). Now, he will have a choice, to believe that religion is to complex to be created by humans, or to disbelieve in the Pokemon theory.
If he beliefs religion is to complex, he will end up with a God at some point. And if he picks disbelieving in the Pokemon theory, he will also end up with a God at some point.

Now, factual that many have made their own religions....ok, but that must include atheism, agnosticism, and all types of philosophy....so, we are left without philosophy, we might as well jump in a trough like a pig and push ourselves down a dirt road while flipping flapjacks in a pile of mud.

Now, you don't know what it is referring to....find out, then we'll chat over some tea.

kingpomba, on 14 August 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

I try to be charitable as possible but with all due respect thats one of the silliest arguments i've heard all month.

We can send robotic rovers with amazingly complex computers to mars. We've harnessed the power of splitting atoms apart.  We have computers in our houses that can do billions of calculations in a single second. We can cure all manners of diseases. We can control nature to an extent. We can fly through the air in huge chunks of metal. We have planes that can go at supersonic speeds and you're arguing religion is just beyond us? Such a thing is absurd.

It also creates a problem. Only some religions are right. Either you are contending that Hinduism...Jainism..Shinto...All the old greek religions...all the pagan religions are also invented by the same God as yours and thats why they are complex (i dont think you would pick this option) or that they're not true religions and human made. Hinduism and the greek religions are extraordinarily complex, on the level that Islam is.




How about the prophets of all the religions you personally don't believe in, are you calling them liars?

You can see how this works right?

It's like some quote i see circulating: "How does it feel to be an atheist?"
"How does it feel to not believe in Zeus?"
"A little like that" (probably a horrible butchered version of the original)



People die all the time. Battles and wars happen all throughout history. Like a lot of battles, this was over power and politics? I dont see how this proves a God




There are millions if not billions of possible Gods. The ancients had at least 33,000 if i recall correctly. Surely, most of these Gods are invented and you agree with me on this. Why should yours be an exception?

1. These religions were brought by Prophets later to be corrupted by man....these are my views.

2...you are obviously not familiar with Karbala.

3... Belief in god has predated Atheism....this is a fact, so....the atheists have come with new ideas, it is there job to prove God wrong....not our job to prove him right.

[shadow_of_light]

kingpomba, on 14 August 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

I think everything (or almost everything, things like radioactive decay are a bit iffy) has a cause. It's a fallacy to assume that cause is God though. If you're talking about the cosmological argument or that there needs to be a first cause, i agree. The problem is, you cant just say the first cause must be God and so it is true. The first cause could be anything.

This first cause is either conscious or unconcious. Considering that it was the first cause (i.e, no other cause used  it to create this world), it could not accidentally make such an organized well-arranged world come into existence.

Do you agree or disagree?

Edited by shadow_of_light, 15 August 2012 - 06:13 AM.