15 replies to this topic

[Follower]

Three short questions, but I think this could generate quite a detailed discussion. I think it would be more interesting to focus on concepts/issues rather than to restrain the argument to individual examples (i.e, scholar X, book Y, speaker Z). Of course examples may be used to illustrate a more general concept or issue, but the aim isn't to turn this into an argument over specifics. Let's try and stay on topic and keep the bigger picture in mind, inshaAllah.


-To what extent do you feel that the Shia muslims are united?

-What do you think are the main obstacles for unity among the Shia?

-What solutions would you suggest for these problems?

[Gypsy]

I sense that the Shias are not that much united. You have the potential to be united because we follow the ahl al-bayt, but as of now, I don't think the Shias are that much united.

Too many obstacles: racism, nationalism, politics, cultural, geography/locality, lack of clear vision and other reasons.

Solutions: Don't have any. I don't think these problems can be solved. Most people don't see problems. And even if they see, they can't solve them. They are simply beyond our control.

The best hope for us is to educate ourselves as best as we can and live our life in the best way possible.

[aliasghark]

Shia Muslims are united to a large extent, but every now and then let trivial issues take up our time. Lack of respect and tolerance for each other is an obstacle. Letting go of our egos and following unadulterated advice of the experts (the highest scholars of our times like Ayatollah Sistani, Imam Khamenei, etc who know and keep religious and worldly issues in mind better than most of us when they speak) can solve all of our major problems.

[Hot hot]

As of my experience I don't think that Shias are currently united and can be united ever before the arrival of Qaem as we have a quote if 1 shia is drowning he will take some more with him to drown lol

[0feedmeplz]

-To what extent do you feel that the Shia muslims are united? Least United among the Muslims

-What do you think are the main obstacles for unity among the Shia? alot of close mindedness, ahlul bayt preached logic

-What solutions would you suggest for these problems? ya imam..

• Like This

[Darth Vader]

I have a better question. Do you think that it will make a difference if all who fall under the category of "Shia muslims" were perfectly united? Business opportunities or trivial worldly gains aside.

With that out of the way, yes on certain levels, e.g., national, Shia muslims are not much different than other communities. We do, however, severely lack platforms, political leadership and proper communication.

[Basim Ali]

,

Unity (or disunity) is not something that exists on its own. It all depends on the people - if they choose to ignore their differences, there will be no discord. If you think of it disunity in the Ummah was born the moment the Prophet died, and from the very same moment Imam Ali (a) has taught us look at what was important and common between us.
If you ask me the Shia` community is currently divided only because it has way too many unnecessary things to quarrel over. 50 years ago my grandparents lives with hard-liner Sunnis like they were next of kin. Today I know of a family in which the father and son barely speak to each other because one supports Iran and is Usooli and the other claims to be Akhbaari. And this is not because we really are different. It's because the people's minds have been poisoned. They haven't been taught to forgive and move on.

By far the only obstacle I see are the speakers who do not realize themselves how much evil their words are spreading. If the very same people who are supposed to educate the people are sowing the seeds of discord, then there is no point in going after the layman. No wonder it's said Imam al-Asr (ajf) will put thousands of 'scholars' to death.

The solution is the obstacle itself. The speakers. Shias need to stop quoting Sunni books in their lectures. Speak about the details of your own madh'hab first! Speak of things that unite, and do not sit on the couch speaking ill of Hezbollah or Imam Khomayni or Usoolis (like really?!). Stop discussing politics in lectures and stop making a fool out of yourself and all of your audience. Urge people to read, our people tend not to read very much. The traditions were not saved for the clerical class. Heck, Man la Yahduroohu al-Faqih = For him not in the presence of a jurisprudent!! We incessantly criticize the Sunnis for letting go of the AhlulBayt (a) from the two Thaqalayn. The fact is, we have let go off the other one ourselves. A greater part of the Shia community does not read the Qur'an at all or reads it during the month of Ramadan only. We need to reform at an individual level if we want to unite on a superior one.

Fi-Amaanillah

[shiaaliibrahim]

In my limited experience I have seen a great deal of unity among the Shia.  I have seen our clerics rally around critical causes and bring their communities into the equation as a matter of course.  I witness the basic guidelines coming from Syed Ali Khameini being practiced as a matter of course and I do not hear rumblings in the backdrop from the rank and file.  

I do agree with Princess Buttercup that we as individuals need to improve our awareness of Qur'an and we should place our sources of Hadith above the Sunnis sources.  We do ourselves a disservice when we cite their sources because it gives them the impression that their sources are the only valid ones.  They need to expand their horizons to find the truth, even if the truth is looking them right in the face.

[CLynn]

I don't know if I ought to chime in but I agree with gypsy where she says;

"Too many obstacles: racism, nationalism, politics, cultural, geography/locality, lack of clear vision and other reasons.

Solutions: Don't have any. I don't think these problems can be solved. Most people don't see problems. And even if they see, they can't solve them. They are simply beyond our control.

The best hope for us is to educate ourselves as best as we can and live our life in the best way possible."

and I would ask buttercup who says;
"the people's minds have been poisoned."
What is it that has poisoned their minds?

[punjabishia]

^ you have many good points. But, the muslim world has unfortunately, it appears to me, reached the stage where it is so spoilt and divided that a big punishment in the form of Malhama will arrive. As soon as George Bush was gone, people gradually drifted back to their older ways. I want you to listen to one Faisal Raza Abdi from pakistan insulting the judiciary to protect the thief Asif ALI Zardari. I dont know what is the type of discourse that goes in other countries. But such a rude discourse on ÇæÇÑå media is itself equivalent to anarchy.

Before the internet, the religious debate was in private or limited scholarly circles. With the internet, it has entered the public and private arena. Either it will lead to an incurable anarchy and ungovernable society (which would then transform itself to poverty and the law of the jungle and serfdom for the majority) or it would lead to superlative education and piety.

The issue is not religous disunity, but lack of good humans. If suppose two major groups unite based on expediency and their bitterness is conserved, it would redirect the third party and thereby oscillate in different configurations.

What is needed is to produce better humans.

[Follower]

Thanks a lot for your replies.

Quote

I have a better question. Do you think that it will make a difference if all who fall under the category of "Shia muslims" were perfectly united? Business opportunities or trivial worldly gains aside.

Depending on how strong this unity is and to which level it extends, perhaps it would deter the oppression on isolated minority communities in different locations? Also, this might encourage Shiite muslims to identify more strongly with their religious identity and perhaps improve their religious practice/knowledge? It would also potentially facilitate things like propagation and education of the religion.

As you mentioned, it would also help from a financial/economic perspective, not only in terms of business but also in terms of helping communities who are in financial difficulties.

Quote

If you ask me the Shia` community is currently divided only because it has way too many unnecessary things to quarrel over. 50 years ago my grandparents lives with hard-liner Sunnis like they were next of kin. Today I know of a family in which the father and son barely speak to each other because one supports Iran and is Usooli and the other claims to be Akhbaari. And this is not because we really are different. It's because the people's minds have been poisoned. They haven't been taught to forgive and move on.

I strongly agree with you here. Two views I would like to share in line with the point you raise:

1. It is surprising how the Shi'a can be tolerant and respectful of people who reject Tawheed, or Risalah or Imamah, but so intolerant within a group that accepts all of these. Not saying that we should change our attitude towards others, but ask ourselves why we become so harsh with each other?

2. The unnecessary quarrels you refer to reiterate to me how we need to reprioritize as a community. The majority of issues that seem to be so fiercely argued about within the Shi'a are hardly fundamental or core issues, rather they are usually secondary/borderline to the point of not even being from the religion sometimes. Maybe we need more focus on the core aqa'id and a'maal, without carrying out witch hunts on the peripheral issues?

Quote

By far the only obstacle I see are the speakers who do not realize themselves how much evil their words are spreading. If the very same people who are supposed to educate the people are sowing the seeds of discord, then there is no point in going after the layman. No wonder it's said Imam al-Asr (ajf) will put thousands of 'scholars' to death.

Would it be fair to say that we, perhaps even more so in the West, are quite happy to put amateurs on the pulpit rather than men of knowledge? Or do you believe that the issue comes from higher up? Personally I think that we lack 'ulema in the West, and the few that are around aren't referred to as much by the community as much as popular speakers are.

Quote

The solution is the obstacle itself. The speakers. Shias need to stop quoting Sunni books in their lectures. Speak about the details of your own madh'hab first! Speak of things that unite, and do not sit on the couch speaking ill of Hezbollah or Imam Khomayni or Usoolis (like really?!). Stop discussing politics in lectures and stop making a fool out of yourself and all of your audience. Urge people to read, our people tend not to read very much. The traditions were not saved for the clerical class. Heck, Man la Yahduroohu al-Faqih = For him not in the presence of a jurisprudent!! We incessantly criticize the Sunnis for letting go of the AhlulBayt (a) from the two Thaqalayn. The fact is, we have let go off the other one ourselves. A greater part of the Shia community does not read the Qur'an at all or reads it during the month of Ramadan only. We need to reform at an individual level if we want to unite on a superior one.

Lots of excellent points here. This really hits the nail on the head, in my humble opinion. We need to raise the standard of 'ilm (among other things) among the masses.

Currently whenever we are faced question or issue, we point to a risalah (al amaliyyah), a youtube video, a lecturer, a book etc.. etc..  Surely we should be able to answer some of the more basic/fundamental questions ourselves? All it takes is 20 minutes of reading a day.

Thanks a lot for your input.

[Logical Islam]

we are divided into sects, and are not as united as we could be within shia islam itself.

our problems are:

zanjeer.(please read my 'fatwa to sunni's about zanjeer' thread. as i do not want to discuss this again).

and not enough clarity about tawassul (read my "do imams have the power to help us?" thread)

to improve, we need to get all the scholars together, sit with other schools of thought, and HONESTLY evaluate our entire faith, debate, discuss, and be prepared to throw anything nonsensical out of the window.

[Basim Ali]

CLynn, on 28 August 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

and I would ask buttercup who says;
"the people's minds have been poisoned."
What is it that has poisoned their minds?

I'd put my finger on it if it were one thing. But it isn't.
I've mentioned much of it in the last para of the previous post. People have started looking for guidance at secondary sources or at the wrong ones altogether which is what one should avoid. If one sticks to the principal sources, no tom, Richard or harry can corrupt your beliefs.

Parents these days are not teaching their children the art of tolerance. All I see these days at family gatherings are debates about how one faction is the bane bla bla... Honestly, have you perfected yourself that you're commenting on how such and such group is in error simply because their political ideology differs from yours?

Quote

I strongly agree with you here. Two views I would like to share in line with the point you raise:

1. It is surprising how the Shi'a can be tolerant and respectful of people who reject Tawheed, or Risalah or Imamah, but so intolerant within a group that accepts all of these. Not saying that we should change our attitude towards others, but ask ourselves why we become so harsh with each other?

2. The unnecessary quarrels you refer to reiterate to me how we need to reprioritize as a community. The majority of issues that seem to be so fiercely argued about within the Shi'a are hardly fundamental or core issues, rather they are usually secondary/borderline to the point of not even being from the religion sometimes. Maybe we need more focus on the core aqa'id and a'maal, without carrying out witch hunts on the peripheral issues?

Precisely. One can never achieve 100% agreement on everything (atleast before the arrival of the Imam (atf) ). We'll have to live with our differences and just agree to disagree (wasn't that part of the 'deal' when the Imam (atf) disappeared, that we'll have differences among us?). In fact, I remember someone telling me the other day that it's part of a hukum from an Imam (a) for the Shias not to club and live too close together in colonies for fear of too much infighting.
Your point that disunity is often over issues irreligious in nature is a very sound observation. But even if it IS over religious issues it's something very insignificant which needn't go beyond a single criticism and fulfilling of the duty of nahi anil munkar.

Quote

Would it be fair to say that we, perhaps even more so in the West, are quite happy to put amateurs on the pulpit rather than men of knowledge? Or do you believe that the issue comes from higher up? Personally I think that we lack 'ulema in the West, and the few that are around aren't referred to as much by the community as much as popular speakers are.

It's not just the West. The case is pretty much the same in the subcontinent and it's not clearly not lack of expertise. I've seen speakers deliver lectures for decades altogether who still ending up giving unintelligible speeches.
The system needs to undergo a revolution. There needs to be regular meetings between them and they need to come to a decision together about what to say (and what not to say) on the pulpit. We've been lectured enough about how the Sunnis are in error. The think the greatest reason Sunnis are better than Shias when it comes to being devout and strict with prayers/fasting etc. is because these fundamental things are not talked about as much. There will ofcourse be instances where people won't agree and will not go beyond speaking how belief in wilayah of Imam Ali (a) will help you through anything, but some unity is better than none at all.

I don't think they understand that much of their audience takes their word as authority without bothering to do their own research. I've seen people believe what is being said in nohas/marsiyas/latmiyya as being true which is sad to say the least. The only benefit I see coming from most of these lectures is that the Shia community remains alive and is constantly reminded of their deen.

[CLynn]

Posted by punjabishia
"What is needed is to produce better humans. " *thumbs up

Posted by Basim ali
"All I see these days at family gatherings are debates about how one faction is the bane bla bla... Honestly, have you perfected yourself that you're commenting on how such and such group is in error simply because their political ideology differs from yours? "

Reminded me of Jesus saying... Remove the plank from your own eye before you try to remove the splinter from another's.

[Ali-Reza]

In my humble openion, Shias aren't united at all because they make big deal out of small stuff. For example in Iran, each year there is much argument about the first and last day of Ramadhan. About Iftar time, sahar, etc. Its the concept of following Marjah taghlid.

Also ignorance plays a role here too.

[faisal786]

Salams All,

Why there is disunity is because of a lack of knowing the real essence of islam and brotherhood importance, but another thing to note is that we people these days follow whatever desire says.

The only way this unity can be achieved in shias is again to put all differences aside such as cultural, belief, family, etc etc and to sit  down to resolve these issues, but all will not be achieved unless we learn to speak to each other with manners and try hard to be together under one banner.