21 replies to this topic

[KhaledAlArabi]

Åä ÇáÍãÏ ááå äÍãÏå æäÓÊÚíäå æäÓÊÛÝÑå¡ æäÚæÐ ÈÇááå ãä ÔÑæÑ ÃäÝÓäÇ æãä ÓíÆÇÊ ÃÚãÇáäÇ¡ ãä íåÏå Çááå ÝáÇ ãÖá áå æãä íÖáá ÝáÇ åÇÏí áå æÃÔåÏ Ãä áÇ Åáå ÅáÇ Çááå æÍÏå áÇ ÔÑíß áå æÃÔåÏ Ãä ãÍãÏ ÚÈÏå æÑÓæáå¡ Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÚáì Âáå æÕÍÈå ÃÌãÚíä¡ æÓáã ÊÓáíãÇ ßËíÑÇð

When Shia try to explain the concept of infallibility they relate it directly to the second half of this verse:

"And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance. And establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification." 33:33

Then they link it to this SAHIH hadith - Hadith Al Kisa:

Narrated by 'Aisha : “ that God's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one morning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped him under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: God only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying)" ”

IF, we assume that this verse meant to make them infallible.
It clearly indicates that only those AhlulBayt members mentioned in the HADITH are infallible.  Right?

Question: How did Shia scholars link infallibility to 12 imams? While 9 of the 12 were not present in the Kisa and the verse did not target them.

P.S.  Please do not reply with the Hadith of the 12 Amirs or Khaliphs from Qurayesh, as it clearly did not mention infallability or knowledge of those leaders.

[Rasul]

rest of Imams were in the loins of Imam Hussain

[KhaledAlArabi]

Rasul, on 10 August 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

rest of Imams were in the loins of Imam Hussain

What you're saying does not make sense.  Then it means that all of his sons are infallible and infallability keeps on going on, so now we'll have a 10,000s of living infallibles.

[Rasul]

KhaledAlArabi, on 10 August 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

What you're saying does not make sense.  Then it means that all of his sons are infallible and infallability keeps on going on, so now we'll have a 10,000s of living infallibles.

Actually what you are saying doesn't make sense,

+ now you are claiming to know ilm ul-Ghaib

Edited by Rasul, 10 August 2012 - 12:17 PM.

[Jaysro]

Isn't an imam or a prophet chosen by Allah by definition infallible at least on jurispudence and spirituality of the religion? Even without hadith kisa.

[al-`Ajal Ya Imaam]

None of the Ma'sum were infallible in the sense that they were unable to make mistakes or sins, Imam Zain Al Abideen clarified what Ma'sum meant to them. He was asked what's the point of them being role models if they cannot sin, he tells the man asking:
"Can you go naked into the streets?" He replied "Yes." The Imam replied "would you go naked through the streets?". He the man said no. The Imam asked why. To which he was replied "It's not decent, and there are onlookers." The Imam replied in a similar manner "We can and are able to sin, but the lord that watches us, out of shame and decency, we do not sin."
This is telling us that the Imams and Ma'sum are humanly able to make sins, but since Allah is always watching them, and us, they chose not to. Ayat Tathir is a glad tidings to the Ahlul Bayt of the Prophet for their choice. Apart from this, I would challenge you to bring forth a sin from the 9 Imams .

[muslimunity1]

Aslamalaykum,

@Khaled

Quote

IF, we assume that this verse meant to make them infallible.
It clearly indicates that only those AhlulBayt members mentioned in the HADITH are infallible.  Right?

Question: How did Shia scholars link infallibility to 12 imams? While 9 of the 12 were not present in the Kisa and the verse did not target them.

Good question, we have in our books authentic hadiths referring to the other Imams also.

Here we have narration from sunni books where the 4th Imam Zaynul Abideen a.s says that he is included (even though he was not one of the members under the cloack)

And let's see what 'Ali bin al-Husayn Zayn al-'Abideen(as) said, also in Tafsir ibn Kathir:
æóÞóÇáó ÇáÓøõÏøöíø Úóäú ÃóÈöí ÇáÏøóíúáóã ÞóÇáó : ÞóÇáó Úóáöíø Èúä ÇáúÍõÓóíúä ÑóÖöíó Çááøóå ÚóäúåõãóÇ áöÑóÌõáò ãöäú Ãóåúá ÇáÔøóÇã ÃóãóÇ ÞóÑóÃúÊ Ýöí ÇáúÃóÍúÒóÇÈ " ÅöäøóãóÇ íõÑöíÏ Çááøóå áöíõÐúåöÈ Úóäúßõãú ÇáÑøöÌúÓ Ãóåúá ÇáúÈóíúÊ æóíõØóåøöÑßõãú ÊóØúåöíÑðÇ "
ÞóÇáó äóÚóãú æóáóÃóäúÊõãú åõãú ¿ ÞóÇáó äóÚóãú
al-Suddi said, from Abi al-Daylam: 'Ali bin al-Husayn ÑÖí Çááå ÚäåãÇ said to a man from Shaam:
"Have you not read in (surah) al-Ahzab:
Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification?"
He said, "Yes, and this is for you? (plural)" (alt: and you (plural) are them?)"
He said, "Yes."
http://quran.al-isla...ookID=11&Page=1

[KhaledAlArabi]

muslimunity1, on 11 August 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Aslamalaykum,

@Khaled



Good question, we have in our books authentic hadiths referring to the other Imams also.

Here we have narration from sunni books where the 4th Imam Zaynul Abideen a.s says that he is included (even though he was not one of the members under the cloack)

And let's see what 'Ali bin al-Husayn Zayn al-'Abideen(as) said, also in Tafsir ibn Kathir:
æóÞóÇáó ÇáÓøõÏøöíø Úóäú ÃóÈöí ÇáÏøóíúáóã ÞóÇáó : ÞóÇáó Úóáöíø Èúä ÇáúÍõÓóíúä ÑóÖöíó Çááøóå ÚóäúåõãóÇ áöÑóÌõáò ãöäú Ãóåúá ÇáÔøóÇã ÃóãóÇ ÞóÑóÃúÊ Ýöí ÇáúÃóÍúÒóÇÈ " ÅöäøóãóÇ íõÑöíÏ Çááøóå áöíõÐúåöÈ Úóäúßõãú ÇáÑøöÌúÓ Ãóåúá ÇáúÈóíúÊ æóíõØóåøöÑßõãú ÊóØúåöíÑðÇ "
ÞóÇáó äóÚóãú æóáóÃóäúÊõãú åõãú ¿ ÞóÇáó äóÚóãú
al-Suddi said, from Abi al-Daylam: 'Ali bin al-Husayn ÑÖí Çááå ÚäåãÇ said to a man from Shaam:
"Have you not read in (surah) al-Ahzab:
Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification?"
He said, "Yes, and this is for you? (plural)" (alt: and you (plural) are them?)"
He said, "Yes."
http://quran.al-isla...ookID=11&Page=1

So why are Imam Hasan's sons not infallible, or not treated the same way.  Isn't he one of Ahl Kisa? Who also gave birth to Children from Imam Ali and Fatema lineage.

I don't think Shia Hadith are Sahih regarding this matter, as they themselves are confused and were confused many times regarding their Imams.  I don't rely on Shia hadiths as the majority (90% or more) fabricated Hadiths.

[Rasul]

Allah chosed 9 Imams , thats why... Is this so hard to understand?

[KhaledAlArabi]

Rasul, on 11 August 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

Allah chosed 9 Imams , thats why... Is this so hard to understand?

LOL.

What is your evidence?

[Rasul]

KhaledAlArabi, on 11 August 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

LOL.

What is your evidence?

Why do you ask me about evidence? You don't believe in our ahadeeth books...

P.S.

lol I understand that you totally failed - come back next time with something better

[Alejandro Sosa]

despite khaled's obvious sunni leanings, he raises a good point..

why is imamate not limited to the ahlul bayt present in ahlul kisa..i've often wondered this myself

[Aabiss_Shakari]

KhaledAlArabi, on 11 August 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

So why are Imam Hasan's sons not infallible, or not treated the same way.  Isn't he one of Ahl Kisa? Who also gave birth to Children from Imam Ali and Fatema lineage.

I don't think Shia Hadith are Sahih regarding this matter, as they themselves are confused and were confused many times regarding their Imams.  I don't rely on Shia hadiths as the majority (90% or more) fabricated Hadiths.

Let us move bit back was not son of Noh (a.s) a non believer? Did his relationship being son of a Prophet saved him? The answer is no. Was not Ismail a.s son of Ibrahim a.s a Prophet of Allah? The answer is yes. So being infallible is not related to this fact that one is son of an Imam. All the sons of Imams were not infallible. Only chosen by Allah to be infallible were infallible. The imam of the time always announced his successor in his life time and even his son is known by all as an infallible in the lifetime of predecessor imam due to his piety, knowledge and wisdom.

KhaledAlArabi, on 11 August 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

I don't think Shia Hadith are Sahih regarding this matter, as they themselves are confused and were confused many times regarding their Imams.  I don't rely on Shia hadiths as the majority (90% or more) fabricated Hadiths.

LOL! and you have so called 100% authentic Sahih books which are full of contradictions. Your Sunni sects do not even agree on basic Ibadat of Namaz but still you are ready to attack Shia faith which has unanimity in almost every part of faith. Least have some shame before attacking Shia

Alejandro Sosa, on 11 August 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

despite khaled's obvious sunni leanings, he raises a good point..

why is imamate not limited to the ahlul bayt present in ahlul kisa..i've often wondered this myself

When you agree that three out of five among the Ahl e Kisa were infallible and Imams a.s then if the same Imams (who are infallible as per your previous agreement) say that such and such person is your Imam after them then will you not be obliged to take them subsequent persons as Imams who are declared Imams by those predecessor infallible who were included in Ahl e Kisa? This is simple logical answer. I hope you must have got the answer

[P. Ease]

Quote

I don't think Shia Hadith are Sahih regarding this matter, as they themselves are confused and were confused many times regarding their Imams.  I don't rely on Shia hadiths as the majority (90% or more) fabricated Hadiths.

So do we about your ahadeeth. You have usurpers and rapists in your chain of narrators.

[Belial]

AlAjalYaImam, on 10 August 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

None of the Ma'sum were infallible in the sense that they were unable to make mistakes or sins, Imam Zain Al Abideen clarified what Ma'sum meant to them. He was asked what's the point of them being role models if they cannot sin, he tells the man asking:
"Can you go naked into the streets?" He replied "Yes." The Imam replied "would you go naked through the streets?". He the man said no. The Imam asked why. To which he was replied "It's not decent, and there are onlookers." The Imam replied in a similar manner "We can and are able to sin, but the lord that watches us, out of shame and decency, we do not sin."
This is telling us that the Imams and Ma'sum are humanly able to make sins, but since Allah is always watching them, and us, they chose not to. Ayat Tathir is a glad tidings to the Ahlul Bayt of the Prophet for their choice. Apart from this, I would challenge you to bring forth a sin from the 9 Imams .

This is still something I wonder about.

Of all the questions ive had about shia Islam, it is, how could Imams be infallible, in the sense of, they have the infinite knowledge necessary to never make mistakes, sins, nor accidents in life.

People normally cause harm, or have accidents, or sin, or make mistakes or misjudgement, simply because we lack knowledge about certain things.

If Imams are able to not have these same issues, they would have to be provided with...almost divine knowledge of their actions.  I am not sure what shias believe about this or how it occurred or how it would be possible.

Edited by Belial, 11 August 2012 - 07:23 PM.

[Ugly Jinn]

There is a hadith (it's on shiachat somewhere) where all the 12 members are named specifically. But I don't know how authentic it is, religious folks tend to use any narration which supports their argument without researching it's authenticity.

Edit: Here it is, you'll have to connect the dots (or invisible dots), and don't know if it's saheeh or not.

In 'Ikmal-ud-Din' a tradition, through 'Jabir-il-Ju'fi', is narrated from 'Jabir-ibn-'Abdillah' thus:

"I said: 'O Messenger of Allah we have known Allah and His Apostle; then who is 'Ulul-Amr', those that Allah has made their obedience the same as your obedience?' Then, the Prophet (p.h.u.h.) said: 'O' Jabir! They are, after me, my successors and the guides of Muslims; the first of them is Ali ibn Abi Talib; then (Imam) Hassan, and (Imam) Husayn; then Ali ibn Husayn; then Mohammad ibn Ali; known in the Turah as Baqir, whom you will see, O' Jabir! When you visit him, give my regards to him. After him, there is Sadiq, Ja'far ibn Muhammad; and after him Musa ibn Ja'far; then Ali ibn Musa; then Muhammad ibn Ali; then Ali ibn Muhammad, then Hassan ibn Ali; and after him (there comes) Al-Qaim, whose name and epithet is the same as mine. He is Allah's Authority on the Earth and His Remainder amongst His servants. He is the son of (Imam) Hassan-ibn-Ali (al-'Askari). This is the very personality by whose hands Allah will open the Easts and Wests of the worlds and this is the very personality who will be absent from his followers and those who love him, in which his mastership cannot be proved by a statement of anyone except for the one whose heart Allah tests for Faith."

Jabir said: "I asked him: 'O' Messenger of Allah will his followers avail of him during his occultation?' He answered: 'Yes. By the One Who appointed me to prophethood, they will seek brightness from his light and will avail by devotion in his absence the same as the availing of people from the (glow of) sun when clouds cover it...'

Ikmal-ud-Din, vol. 1, p. 253,

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 11 August 2012 - 07:31 PM.

[al-`Ajal Ya Imaam]

Belial, on 11 August 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

This is still something I wonder about.

Of all the questions ive had about shia Islam, it is, how could Imams be infallible, in the sense of, they have the infinite knowledge necessary to never make mistakes, sins, nor accidents in life.

People normally cause harm, or have accidents, or sin, or make mistakes or misjudgement, simply because we lack knowledge about certain things.

If Imams are able to not have these same issues, they would have to be provided with...almost divine knowledge of their actions.  I am not sure what shias believe about this or how it occurred or how it would be possible.

I answered this for you in the chat, didn't I brother?

[Ali Musaaa :)]

There are authentic Hadiths in which the Imams (a) themselves stated that they were Ma'soom. Imams after the 4 in the Hadith Kisa:

http://www.revivinga...ibility-of.html

[Belial]

AlAjalYaImam, on 11 August 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

I answered this for you in the chat, didn't I brother?

You had.

If I am not mistaken, you mentioned the names of various types of divinely provided knowledge.  This provided knowledge allegedly allows the Imams to live with the knowledge needed to never make life errors.

You then provided a hadith in relation to the topic.  Would you be able to re provide the hadith for me?

Thank you.

[al-`Ajal Ya Imaam]

Belial, on 11 August 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

You had.

If I am not mistaken, you mentioned the names of various types of divinely provided knowledge.  This provided knowledge allegedly allows the Imams to live with the knowledge needed to never make life errors.

You then provided a hadith in relation to the topic.  Would you be able to re provide the hadith for me?

Thank you.

The knowledge that is withheld (i.e., Ghayb). As I mentioned Nobody has control over this type of knowledge except Allah. Allah may inform "a news from Ghayb" to some of His servants, but this is different than "possessing Ghayb". In fact, there is a whole chapter in Usul al-Kafi which discusses this type of knowledge where it is clearly mentioned that neither the Imams nor the prophets possess the knowledge Ghayb. "The Will (Mashiyyah) of Allah operates on this knowledge. If He wishes He decrees it. And If He wishes He modifies it and does not carry it out." (See Usul al-Kafi, Kitab al-Hujjah, Tradition #664)

The knowledge that is granted. "This is the knowledge that Allah fore- ordained (Qadar, Taqdeer), He decrees it, and carries it out (with no modification). And this is the knowledge that has been passed down to the Prophet Muhammad, and then to the Imams." (See Usul al-Kafi, Kitab al-Hujjah, Tradition #664)

A good place to get an understanding of Ilm Al Ghaib is here: http://www.al-islam....chapter2/6.html

Edited by AlAjalYaImam, 11 August 2012 - 10:39 PM.

[A true Sunni]

though this a Shia hadith it explains succinctly about infallibility .

paraphrasing

the firs is mohammed the last is mohammed in reality we are all mohammed.

[islamistruth101]

Sahih Muslim : Book 020: Number 4477, 4478, 4480, 4481, 4482, 4483: Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "The (Islamic) religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh."

Zaid Ibn Thaabit from the Prophet of Allah (ÚóÒóø æó Ìóáóø) he said : "I left you two things to follow what is most important to me is the Khalifateen, The book of Allah (ÚóÒóø æó Ìóáóø) and my progeny "Ahlulbayt (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) and they will not separate until they return to me at the Pond (of Kawthar in paradise)"

Note: Al- Haythami comments "The Narrators are Thiqah (Trustworthy!)"

Source: Majma Al- Zawa'ed Vol 9, Pg. 256 H # 14957

Sahih al Bukhari Volume 9, Book 89, Number 306: Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Allah never sends a prophet or gives the Caliphate to a Caliph but that he (the prophet or the Caliph) has two groups of advisors: A group advising him to do good and exhorts him to do it, and the other group advising him to do evil and exhorts him to do it. But the protected person (against such evil advisors) is the one protected by Allah.' " 

The original Arabic text of the Hadith can be read at:
  http://www.al-eman.c...=13&CID=200#s37 (Hadith 7284).

The word used in the above Hadith for “the protected person” is “Masoom”. Meaning infallible.

Sunan Ibn Majah #4085: It was narrated from `Ali that the Messenger of Allâh said: ``Mahdi is one of us, the people of the Household. Allâh rectifying him in a single night.'' ( Hasan )

1. There are 12 caliphs from quraysh
2. The prophet (saww) cleared it up and said that the khalafah is in Ahlul Bayt
3. Caliphs are masoom infallible
4. Ahlul Bayt is extended up until imam Mahdi

So without going into Shia hadiths we have a clear submission that there are a total of 12 caliphs from Ahlul Bayt who last up till imam Mahdi who are infallible.