81 replies to this topic

[kadhim]

100 billion galaxies in the universe.
~10^23 stars.
Hard to doubt there are some number of other planets out there amongst those stars also containing intelligent life and advanced civilizations. Did each of those have an Adam and Eve who fell? Did each of those have a Christ to redeem them?

[CLynn]

Jihadi, on 22 August 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

Greetings Jihadi,
It is interesting the Bible scripture that you quoted because it is the one that always comes to my mind when I think of Muhammad and his 'religion'.

As far as the differences in the Bible writings...
all scripture was written down by fallible man...
the Bible was written by many...
what is Muhammad's excuse?

Would you like me to list all the contradictions that are in the Qur'an?
or you can just go view them for yourself here:
http://skepticsannot...ra/by_name.html

It is difficult to explain why there are discrepancies in all the writings, and with God Himself... and yet it is not...
we are only human after all.

Edited by CLynn, 22 August 2012 - 01:59 PM.

[CLynn]

I have just read what ChristianLady wrote, and I think she expressed it best.  :-)

[Haydar Husayn]

CLynn, on 21 August 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

Interesting thought.

What if you had never had the experience of pain before? Might it be a bit more frightful to think about?
In the case of humans choosng to die it is usually because they have had enough of the pain of this life and look forward to going to something better... a pain free existence beyond this earth.
But what if you had never had to deal with pain? Wouldn't the prospect of knowing what it was going to be like loom even greater?

Just a thought.

In his 33 years (or whatever) on earth, Jesus never experienced any pain until the crucifixion?

[omar111]

CLynn, on 22 August 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

What proof is there of the things you say, against that of the things that for millennia have stood, when they surely would have been called into question long before now.  Even during the times in which Paul did his writing, people could have disputed what he said if it was not true.  Where are those disputations?

What is more interesting to note is why the questioning is happening now.  What you propose are only theories... a preponderance of people's imaginations.  Why have these theories suddenly emerged?  There is no proof to substantiate these theories either.

and what I said earlier can not easily be dismissed;
"in view of all the letters of Paul that we have attesting to His deep devotion to Christ. "
We have no reason not to believe in him.

As Paul was a roman spy, the authorities will never question him. The privileged treatment given to Paul even perplexed you. Romans were only trying to create a united roman religion to prevent their imminent collapse.
But the early Church would not tolerate a Roman spy, so they challenged Paul at every turn. But Paul had money and resources at his side.

   One of the main opponents of Paul was James. In fact, the epistle of James is drastically different then the Pauline letters. To James, Jesus was a Jewish prophet sent to save Jews only. Paul arranged for the death of James at the hand of ananias.Ananias was the same person who claimed that he cured Paul blindness.
2:11 But when Cephas  came to Antioch,  I opposed him to his face, because he had clearly done wrong.  2:12 Until  certain people came from James, he had been eating with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he stopped doing this  and separated himself  because he was afraid of those who were pro-circumcision.  2:13 And the rest of the Jews also joined with him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was led astray with them  by their hypocrisy.
Even Paul admitted that there were spies in the early church, so it is not amazing that he was also a spy.
2:3 Yet  not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, although he was a Greek. 2:4 Now this matter arose because of the false brothers with false pretenses  who slipped in unnoticed to spy on  our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, to make us slaves.

"According to the 'Habakkuk Commentary', the 'liar did not listen to the word received by the Teacher of Righteousness from the mouth of God'. Instead, he appealed to 'the unfaithful of the New Covenant in that they have not believed in the Covenant of God and have profaned His holy name'. The text states explicitly that 'the Liar...flouted the Law in the midst of their whole congregation'. He 'led many astray' and raised 'a congregation on deceit.' He himself is said to be 'pregnant with [works] of deceit.'"
"...Despite his exculpatory self-purification, Paul continues to inspire enmity in those 'zealous for the Law' - who, a few days later , attack him in the Temple."
- Baigent and Leigh, The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception

"In 60 C.E., when incoming procurator Festus indicated that he was willing to hand Paul over to the Sanhedrin for trial, Paul declared himself a Roman citizen and demanded trial before Nero."
"That Paul was not born a Roman citizen is certain. Most likely he was granted denization papers about 48 CE by Sergius Paulus, proconsul of Cyprus, whom Paul converted to Christianity and whose name he thereafter adopted (Acts 13:6-12). Paul's prudence in concealing his Roman status for a decade was confirmed by the consequences of his enforced revelation. Jacob [James] had barely tolerated Paul to begin with. At the news that Paul had accepted citizenship from the hated occupying power, Jacob in effect excommunicated him. Envoys were sent from Jerusalem to convert all of Paul's Christian communities to Nazirite Judaism. All cooperation between the Nazirites and Paul's gentile followers ceased, and the way was open for a Christian (John Markos was a Nazirite) to write the Gospel of Mark (as it was later called), which all but repudiated Jesus' Jewishness."
     - William Harwood, Mythologies Last Gods: Yahweh and Jesus

[CLynn]

Haydar Husayn, on 22 August 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

In his 33 years (or whatever) on earth, Jesus never experienced any pain until the crucifixion?

Right... then I guess Jesus probably would have known the feel of pain.
So let us look at this from a different angle...
Do you not think those non-divine beings also prayed to God for mercy?  Why should Jesus of flesh and blood, and subject to all the same weaknesses of the flesh, not do the same?

Edited by CLynn, 22 August 2012 - 09:44 PM.

[Jihadi]

Christianlady, on 22 August 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

Hello Ali,

I cannot do that, since obviously I believe that Christian beliefs are true and that the Bible is the Word of God. The reasons I believe that Christian beliefs are true include the following:

1. God protects His Word. He is not weak; He is omnipotent!!! Christian beliefs are merely an interpretation based on Jesus (Yeshua) of the promises/prophecies that God gave to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, concerning the prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18, John 1:43-51, Luke 24:44, Acts 3:19-26), the Messiah, Son of God (2 Samuel 7:11-17, 1 Chronicles 17:11-15, Psalm 2, Psalm 89:20-29, Matthew 1:1, Matthew 16:16, John 11:27, John 20:31, Acts 2:29-36) as well as other prophecies/promises concerning him.

2. The history of the Jewish people, of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel) was recorded throughout the centuries by many people: Moses, Joshua, and other prophets (Samuel, King David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, for example).  The records in the New Testament, of what Jesus said and did, also were of different people, as testimonies. Because of the span of centuries and the testimonies of different people, the Bible is not just the work of one mere mortal in one period of time. This is vital because it gives validity, whereas the claims of one mere mortal in one time period is questionable, especially if said individual tries to call corrupt what God gave and protects. Since God is omnipotent, suggesting that the Word God gave to the people throughout the generations is "corrupted" infers that God is not strong enough to protect His Word, which is not true. God is and does protect His Word that He has given, since the time Moses wrote down the Torah till (Christian believe) the time the apostles of Jesus wrote down what Jesus said and did.

Jesus made clear that he did not come to abolish, but rather to fulfill the Law. (Matthew 5:17-2) He did not say that the Scriptures were corrupted. Rather, he dug deeper into the profoundness of the Law, the whys, and showed people willing to listen how to please God in their hearts (Matthew 5).

3. The contradictions in the Bible, in both the Tanakh and the New Testament, are minor issues that do not change the message God has for us. Rather, the contradictions in the records merely show that humans are imperfect. That is to be expected. Just like how computers have bugs, so writing records down by mere mortals has issues. However, that does not mean that the vital messages that computers (or records written down by humans) is corrupt. Rather, the emphasis should be on the messages God has for us, not on the contradictions which are minor discrepancies in record-keeping.

4. Since I have always been surrounded by Christians, I have seen many people whose lives shine with love for God and from God to other people. I have also personally observed Non-Christians accept Jesus and have their lives transformed. Some of my good friends are ex-druggies who came to the AA meetings at my former church, accepted Jesus as their Savior, and were free from addictions!!! It is amazing how God changed their lives!!! Since I used to help out with the kids at the church, I got to see first-hand how God blessed their lives and their children's lives through their change of lifestyle and heart!

5. My personal experience is also that Christian beliefs are true. I accepted Jesus as my Savior when I was 6 years old. My parents were Christians and had taught me about God's gift of salvation through Jesus. When I was a teen and in my 20s, I fell away from God but by God's amazing grace, He brought me back into a wonderful relationship with Him!!! Since God brought me back, I am growing in my relationship with God and have dedicated my life to Him! This means that I am even willing to die for Him, because I know He loves me. My goal is to follow Jesus' teachings and to love God and others, like Jesus says (Matthew 22:35-40)

I have to go now, but those are some of the reasons why I believe Christian beliefs are true and that the Bible is not corrupted.

Peace and God bless you

ok you say that the bible is the word of god then if there are tons of mistakes in the bible what are you saying about him that he makes mistakes astaghfirullah wich i extremly reject wihtout a doubt that he makes mistakes rather he is perfect and his words and books are perfect just like his holy quran, without a doubt theres alot of things in the bible that dnt make sense, lets be real sister there are tons of contradictions in the bible and its not because it depends what book you get what version ect, there are so many verses in the bible  wich talk about a new prophet after jesus pbuh and not just that it mentions muhammad pbuhahp by NAME and is that accepted or just not those parts ?, if you beleive  in the trinity and say that according to you jesus pbuh is that wich you claim then when he was according to the bible being cruxified then died were was God at that moment, according to your believes  your god dies and resurrects himself  <-- may Allah forgive me for even saying this.

my sister  this is not my god and your god, our god is beyond that wich they attribute to him he never sleeps nor eats nor dies nor is cruxified by a bunch of pigs who said that his messiah was god and tried killing him, noone has ever seen Him he is the God who every prophet creature has bowed down to he is Allah swt the Benificent the Merciful

forgive me if i offended you in anyway  i come from a family who practice cristianity and some that practice catholism  so i respect them same as i do to you
peace

Edited by Jihadi, 22 August 2012 - 10:14 PM.

[CLynn]

@Jihadi
It is the overall inherent message that one gets from the scriptures that is the Word of God.  Is 'Allah's' message the same as God's?
You are right when you say your god is not my God.  The fact that you can refer to people as pigs shows the doctrine of hate that you have bought into.

[Jihadi]

CLynn, on 22 August 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

@Jihadi
It is the overall inherent message that one gets from the scriptures that is the Word of God.  Is 'Allah's' message the same as God's?
You are right when you say your god is not my God.  The fact that you can refer to people as pigs shows the doctrine of hate that you have bought into.

bro never did i say that our god is different rather the one who u think dies is not our god because he never dies he is beyond what the mind can perceive, now  tell me what do you call those who tried killing prophets and actually did in the past ?, are they humans to u and would u accept them inside your house, i dnt have hate bro i just dnt like those who killed prophets and those who killed our imams , those killers are no humans they dnt have compassion not even for pure prophets  and our imams  (pbut).


God bestowed love,desires, and lust on us but if you dnt follow his messangers and those whom he purifies like the Ahlul Bayt you can end up loving and doing the wrong things wich are forbidden, sorry if i offended you in any way bro, i  have love for you and with the best of sinciere words is i ask you to keep seeking knowledge and open your heart to the Creator who created jesus and all of creation from Adam to jesus(as) then to Muhammad (pbuhahp) inshAllah hope you for the best

Edited by Jihadi, 23 August 2012 - 02:21 AM.

[Basso]

Ali.20, on 08 August 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

AlSalam Alaykum:

Please post as many things as possible that proves Christianity is not the real religion and Bible is corrupted.

JazakumAllah Khair

Be careful what you wish for because what you get could probably turned on Islam or Shias. How would you like that? You can respect and tolerate many religions and hold Islam in the highest esteem. Trying to take down other religions does not make Islam any better but may make an individual Muslim look petty and cause him or her to lose the respect of others.

[CLynn]

Dhulfiqar313, on 23 August 2012 - 12:49 AM, said:

Allah is the Arabic word for God.  Why don't you go talk about how Dios is different from God?  Or Gott is different from God?  They're not.  They are just words, so chill out.

Secondly, I suggest you respect others.  Especially on their forum.  

That is all.

I'm sorry I offended, but I am not the one who referred to certain people as pigs.  That to me is offensive.

Jihadi, on 23 August 2012 - 01:39 AM, said:

bro never did i say that our god is different rather the one who u think dies is not our god because he never dies he is beyond what the mind can perceive, now  tell me what do you call those who tried killing prophets and actually did in the past ?, are they humans to u and would u accept them inside your house, i dnt have hate bro i just dnt like those who killed prophets and those who killed our imams , those killers are no humans they dnt have compassion not even for pure prophets  and our imams  (pbut).


God bestowed love,desires, and lust on us but if you dnt follow his messangers and those whom he purifies like the Ahlul Bayt you can end up loving and doing the wrong things wich are forbidden, sorry if i offended you in any way bro, i  have love for you and with the best of sinciere words is i ask you to keep seeking knowledge and open your heart to the Creator who created jesus and all of creation from Adam to jesus(as) then to Muhammad (pbuhahp) inshAllah hope you for the best

I do not believe in judging groups of people, but treating all people as individuals, with individual minds, and as fallible humans, who can be redeemed.

[Haydar Husayn]

Dhulfiqar313, on 21 August 2012 - 11:49 PM, said:

First of all, Jesus never prayed to "himself", he prayed to the Father.  You are clearly misunderstanding the concept of the trinity.  There is one God, but in three forms.  How many government's of the United States are there?  One.  But is there not the executive, legislative, and judicial?  Yes.  They are all "the single government", but they are separate.

A married couple (two people) are said to be "one".  But does that mean that when they procreate, they are doing it with themselves?  Of course not.  Jesus, the son, was praying to God the Father.  Not Himself.

Do you believe in the Trinity?

[Jihadi]

CLynn, on 23 August 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

I'm sorry I offended, but I am not the one who referred to certain people as pigs.  That to me is offensive.

it all depends how u see a pig as brother in my defenition i see the pig as haram wich i see that those people did something forbidden if you know what i mean, i cannot see a murderer the same as i see the innocent and especially if people in the past killed prophets



I do not believe in judging groups of people, but treating all people as individuals, with individual minds, and as fallible humans, who can be redeemed.

same with me brother i dnt jugde but we can distinguish evil doers by their open sin actions out in public.

have you read about imam Hussein you should and you will see what a special soul he is, what happen to him in karbala and what he did was  the most saddest event in the whole history of human kind and jinns (demons)


Ya Hussein

[CLynn]

"same with me brother i dnt jugde but we can distinguish evil doers by their open sin actions out in public."

As long as you can recognize that these sinners are individual in their sin... they are not all people in a group or society.

I will research about Imam Hussein.  

[Basso]

Dhulfiqar313, on 21 August 2012 - 11:49 PM, said:

First of all, Jesus never prayed to "himself", he prayed to the Father.  You are clearly misunderstanding the concept of the trinity.  There is one God, but in three forms.  How many government's of the United States are there?  One.  But is there not the executive, legislative, and judicial?  Yes.  They are all "the single government", but they are separate.

A married couple (two people) are said to be "one".  But does that mean that when they procreate, they are doing it with themselves?  Of course not.  Jesus, the son, was praying to God the Father.  Not Himself.

I am not a Christian but I love your response because I believe it to be true.

[placid]

Hi Jihadi,

I see that you are trying to do what Ali suggested in Post 1, --- that is, to list as many negatives as you can to discredit Christianity.
I see that in Post 53, you copied the list that has been used before of 101 discrepancies, --- and not only once, --- but you copied the same list twice???

I have gone over it before and have noted that there are many from the OT, so they need to be responded to by one who understands Hebrew and Greek.

Most in the NT statements are taken out of context and are used only to suit Ali’s purpose. --- For instance,
27. Jesus descended from which son of David?
* Solomon (Matthew 1:6)
* Nathan(Luke3:31)
--- The discrepancy uses Matthew 1-6, but ignored verse 16 which gives the answer that Joseph, Jesus’ foster father, was descended from Solomon, --- but not Jesus. Every Christian and Muslim knows that it was written in Scripture that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, --- and it says this in Matthew 1:
16.  And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.
--- There was no blood relationship between Joseph and Jesus, but Jewish law always traced descent through the father. --- So in the census in Bethlehem in Luke 1, Jesus was recorded as the son of Joseph, who was a descendant of David, through Solomon.

The genealogy in Luke 3 follows the line of Mary, and brings Joseph into the relationship this way in Luke 3:
23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli,

--- The bracketed (as was supposed) agrees with Matthew that Jesus was not the son of Joseph, but the son of Mary, --- who descended from Nathan
Had the Scripture been written this way,
--- ‘Jesus, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son (in law) of Hehi,’ --- it may have been more clear.
But only the unbelievers, disbelievers and critics (like those who write lists of discrepancies) have trouble accepting this.

--- My son-in-law calls me ‘father,’ which is natural among most families.
The Virgin Birth was unnatural, and Jesus was the Son of God because ‘God said, “Be!” and He was,’ in Surah 19:35.
--- And the angel Gabriel said this in Luke 1:
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be CALLED the Son of the Highest;
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.
--- I capitalized the word CALLED because from the time Jesus was born He was CALLED the Son of God. --- And this stumbling block is mentioned in Surah 19:34.

--- While the ‘scribes’ studied the Scriptures and related their findings to the Pharisees, they may have concluded that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, and this may have been what was referred to in Surah 4:156, where it said:
“And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous columny,” --- which may have been their calculation of a premarital pregnancy, so therefore, an illegitimate Child. --- However, that is not mentioned in the NT.

100.  Was baby Jesus life threatened in Jerusalem?
* Yes, so Joseph fled with him to Egypt and stayed there until Herod died (Matthew 2:13 23)
* No. The family fled nowhere. They calmly presented the child at the Jerusalem temple according to the Jewish customs and returned to Galilee (Luke 2:21-40)

--- Jesus’ life was threatened in Bethlehem, not Jerusalem.
Their first visit to Jerusalem was when He was dedicated to the Lord after which they may have visited Nazareth, their home town, before returning to Bethlehem.
It was some time later, perhaps a year to a year and a half, after the Wisemen came seeking the King of the Jews, that Herod gave orders to kill all the boy babies in Bethlehem and district up to 2 years old, Matthew 2:16.
--- So they fled to Egypt for safety till after Herod was dead, and in the years following they moved back to Nazareth.
The first was a visit, --- and a few years later, they moved back to Nazareth.

(Enough for now, but you may find my next post interesting.)


Placid

[placid]

(To continue)

To use this long list of discrepancies you are acknowledging that all the events are true, --- because if they would not have happened there would be nothing to comment on, would there? --- So you are proving the Scripture to be true.

--- About the only one I see as a contradiction in the NT is No. 46, about when Jesus cursed the fig tree (in the evening or in the morning), and it withered, --- which was at the time that He cleansed the Temple. --- It says in Matthew 21:
12. Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.
13 And He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’”
14 Then the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them.
15 But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children crying out in the temple and saying, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” they were indignant.

--- Then the Scribes and Pharisees rejected Jesus and began their plot to kill Him.

The withering of the fig tree has significance because the fig tree has been symbolic of the nation Israel, and since the Jews rejected Jesus, --- then they would be rejected by God, and His blessing would be removed.  --- As in Matthew 23:
37. “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
38 See! Your house is left to you desolate.”

Something you wouldn’t likely know about was that this was prophetic, and that it speaks in the Book of Revelation about the ‘budding of the fig tree,’ --- which is identified with Israel becoming a nation again in 1948. (But that’s another story.)

If there are individual numbers on the list from the NT, that you want to know about, --- ask them one at a time. --- I am not saying there are no discrepancies, but once the Scripture was written, it was preserved that way.

--- In the years I have been on Shiachat, I have not dwelt on discrepancies or contradictions in the Quran, because the general belief is that there aren’t any.
However, --- when we read these verses it arouses some questions:

It says in Gen 2:
7. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
This is confirmed in Surah 3:
59. Lo! The likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then said unto him, “Be!” and he is.


(But it also says in following Surahs):
6:2. He it is who has created you from clay
15:26. We created man of potter’s clay of black mud altered.
16:4. He has created man from a drop of fluid.
25:54. He it is who created man from water.
38:71. I am about to make a mortal out of mire.
96:2. Created man from a clot.

Also, the story of Lot and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is written once in Genesis.
--- It is referred to 7 times in the Quran, --- and each time with slight variation.


Placid

[omar111]

There is no contradiction in Bible that a determined apologist can't claim to refute. They can resort to every sort of absurdity to defend Bible, like claiming Herod killed all male children. Josephus was a meticulous historian of that time and he always wrote against Herod. But somehow the most important point that he could use against Herod eluded him and reached the authors of bible.
Talking of Prophecy, there is even contradiction in prophecies.
Was Israel to be built again?
Yes
Jer 31:4
Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.
Ezk 37:21-22
I will take the children of Isreal from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Isreal; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

No
Amos 5:2
The virgin of Isreal is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up
in two different places(Luke 24:46, Corinthians 15:3-4) New Testament writers claimed that
the resurrection of the Messiah on the third day had been predicted “according to the scriptures.” Try as they may, however, bible-thumpers cannot produce an Old Testament passage that made this alleged third-day prediction.

God should makeup his mind in Bible.
Should we answer a fool according to his folly?
Yes
Pr 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

No
Pr 26:4
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.


Scarlet (Mt:27:28)
Purple (Jn: 19:2)

What time was Jesus crucified?
In the third hour (Mk:15:25)
Sometime after the sixth hour (Jn:19:14-16)

Did Mary Magdalene see Jesus?
Yes (Mt:28:9 & Jn 20:14)
No (Lk 24:3, 22-24)

What did Judas do with his silver?
He threw it down in the temple (Mt:27:5)
He purchased a field with it (Acts:1:18)

Is there anyone righteous in God's sight?
Yes (Lk:1:6, 20:50)
No (Rom:3:10 & 23)

Was Jesus omniscient, like God?
Yes (Jn:10:30)
No (Mt:24:36)

Is it possible to follow Jesus?
No (Jn:8:21)
Yes (Jn:21:19)

Matthew said, “This is Jesus the King of the Jews” (27:37). However, Mark contradicts that with “The King of the Jews” (15:26).

What is obvious is that in the presence of such blatant contradictions, Bible cannot be an inspired book. But that doesn’t mean that bible is totally false. Some truth did trickle into it but where the Gospel writers tried to create a new theology of crucifixion and resurrection, the stories naturally conflict.

[CLynn]

"What is obvious is that in the presence of such blatant contradictions, Bible cannot be an inspired book. "

If you are to make this statement then you must logically reach the same conclusion about the Qur'an.
The thing is, which one had the forerunner to copy from, misunderstand, misconstrue, and make changes to?

Edited by CLynn, 25 August 2012 - 08:59 PM.

[ShiaBen]

CLynn, on 25 August 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

"What is obvious is that in the presence of such blatant contradictions, Bible cannot be an inspired book. "

If you are to make this statement then you must logically reach the same conclusion about the Qur'an.
The thing is, which one had the forerunner to copy from, misunderstand, misconsture, and make changes to?

What are your thoughts on Shiite Muslims?

[CLynn]

I have found everyone on these forums good, easy, and nice to talk to.  I am still trying to understand the differences in the Muslim community.  i.e., shia vs. sunni, etc.  There are so many different variances in the people calling themselves Muslim.  The people here seem to be relatively open-minded and progressive, which I like.  I like all the Muslims who are peace loving and not hate filled.

[placid]

Hi Clynn,

Welcome.
Quote from Post 76:
(Previous quote) "What is obvious is that in the presence of such blatant contradictions, Bible cannot be an inspired book. "
If you are to make this statement then you must logically reach the same conclusion about the Qur'an.
The thing is, which one had the forerunner to copy from, misunderstand, misconstrue, and make changes to?


Response: --- You are right. --- Both the Bible and the Quran have been given from God, to men, and written by men. --- And men can make mistakes
About one half of the Quran is based on, or is a repetition of the OT and NT.

The OT that we have today is the same as the Jews had in Israel in the time of Jesus, and He quoted from nearly all of the Books. --- This is why Jesus could reason with the Pharisees from their own Scriptures, and these discussions are written in the NT.--- The Manuscripts, or fragments, of the NT are still available in Museums, and one English translation from about 400 AD is the Codex Siniaticus, which is online.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were found about 1950, in the caves of Qumran --- There were Scrolls, or fragments of all but the Book of Esther. The OT is as it has been for thousands of years, and has been translated into many languages, and has not been changed, except for the choice of words and expression by the translators.

The Books of the NT were written in the first century by the Apostles and followers of Jesus. All were Jewish except Luke, who wrote the Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts, who was Greek.

It is understood that the Surahs of the Quran were revealed to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel. This was the same angel who appeared to Zechariah and Mary in Luke 1. --- Therefore, the testimony of Gabriel should be the proof of the authenticity of the former Scriptures, should it not?

This is what is recorded in Surah 3:
2. God! There is no god but He, - the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)
4. Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.

--- And to prove that they had the OT and NT in 625 AD, in the time when the Surahs were revealed to Muhammad, there are these verses in Surah 5:
43. But why do they (the Jews) come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them? - therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
44. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in surrender) to God's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses.
46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.
47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

--- So if the angel Gabriel made no suggestion of ‘changes’ in either the OT or NT, --- but ‘confirmed’ them (3:3 and 5:46), --- then they are the messages of God to mankind, are they not?

Really, there are no new laws in the Quran that ‘correct’ anything in the former Scriptures, --- but it was God’s message in Arabic to Muhammad’s own people.
--- In studying the Quran, I find no real disagreement with the former Scriptures.


Placid

[Abu Hadi]

CLynn, on 25 August 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

"What is obvious is that in the presence of such blatant contradictions, Bible cannot be an inspired book. "

If you are to make this statement then you must logically reach the same conclusion about the Qur'an.
The thing is, which one had the forerunner to copy from, misunderstand, misconstrue, and make changes to?

Hello, CLynn,


If that is the case, then find contradictions in the Quran and please post.

Before you do that though, you must understand the difference between the 'Quran' and the English Translation of the Quran.
The Quran is an Arabic book, the Quran itself says that and all muslims agree on this. (because the Quran itselfs says it).
I have found many contradictions in the English translation, and that is why I learned Arabic.
I will give you an example of one I found a few days ago.

It is in Surat 7:18-20.

Çáó ÇÎúÑõÌú ãöäúåóÇ ãóÐúÁõæãðÇ ãóøÏúÍõæÑðÇ ; áóøãóä ÊóÈöÚóßó ãöäúåõãú áóÃóãúáóÃóäóø Ìóåóäóøãó ãöäßõãú ÃóÌúãóÚöíäó ; æóíóÇ ÂÏóãõ ÇÓúßõäú ÃóäÊó æóÒóæúÌõßó ÇáúÌóäóøÉó ÝóßõáóÇ ãöäú ÍóíúËõ ÔöÆúÊõãóÇ æóáóÇ ÊóÞúÑóÈóÇ åóÜ;Ðöåö ÇáÔóøÌóÑóÉó ÝóÊóßõæäóÇ ãöäó ÇáÙóøÇáöãöíäó ; ÝóæóÓúæóÓó áóåõãóÇ ÇáÔóøíúØóÇäõ áöíõÈúÏöíó áóåõãóÇ ãóÇ æõæÑöíó ÚóäúåõãóÇ ãöä ÓóæúÂÊöåöãóÇ æóÞóÇáó ãóÇ äóåóÇßõãóÇ ÑóÈõøßõãóÇ Úóäú åóÜ;Ðöåö ÇáÔóøÌóÑóÉö ÅöáóøÇ Ãóä ÊóßõæäóÇ ãóáóßóíúäö Ãóæú ÊóßõæäóÇ ãöäó ÇáúÎóÇáöÏöíä

(ABOVE IS THE QURAN. i HAVE HIGHLIGHTED THE REVELANT PORTIONS IN RED)

SO NOW THE ENGLISH TRANSLATION


(17) [Allah] said to Satan, "Get out of Paradise, reproached and expelled. Whoever follows you among them - I will surely fill Hell with you, all together." (18) And "O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat from wherever you will but do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers." (19) But Satan whispered to them to make apparent to them that which was concealed from them of their private parts. He said, "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you become angels or become of the immortal." (20)


I have highlighted the relevant portions in the translation. Do you see the problem ? If God ordered Satan to get out of Paradise, then how is it possible that he could have 'wispered' to Adam and Eve since they were in Paradise and God had ordered him (Satan) out of it. So this apprears to be a contradiction, but in fact it is a problem in translation.

In verse 17, the translation is 'Get out of Paradise', but actually this is wrong translation. The Quran, which I highlighted says 'Akraj min Ha'. Anyone who speaks Arabic knows that this means 'Get out from here' or 'Get out from it'. It is not specific as to what or where. There are other verses in the Quran which make it clear what 'here' or 'it' was. The 'here' was not Paradise (where Adam and Eve were) but was a state of existence in which Satan was close to God and the Angels. Christians believe Satan was a fallen angel but muslims believe that Satan was and is a jinn (another type of being that God created from fire free of smoke). Satan was, in the past, very obedient and worshiped God for thousands of years before the creation of Adam. His jealousy and prejudice that he had in his heart for Adam (and his descendants) was exposed when God told him to bow down to Adam and he refused. Because of this refusal, God told him to 'Get out from it or here'. 'It' or 'Here' being the elevated status that he enjoyed which was with the angels and not Paradise. Of course, you would need to have an understanding of different verses in the Quran that discuss this in order to know what 'it' or 'here' means. Both Muslims and Christians believe that if God had ordered Satan out of Paradise (at that point), he would not have been able to reach it or to tempt Adam and Eve.

Edited by Abu Hadi, 26 August 2012 - 10:10 AM.

[Son of Placid]

Quote

Is it possible to follow Jesus?
No (Jn:8:21)
Yes (Jn:21:19)

John 8 Jesus was talking to the Jews, John 21 he's talking to Peter.

Only those who can't read for themselves would believe this.
I'd feel kinda stupid if I tried to pass this off as a contradiction.

Matthew introduces Jesus as King of the Jews, Mark's description at the crucifixion has the Romans putting King of the Jews as an inscription.
King of the Jews as opposed to King of the Jews, that's some contradiction.

Quote

God should makeup his mind in Bible.

tsk tsk tsk

Quote

Should we answer a fool according to his folly?
Yes
Pr 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

No
Pr 26:4
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

26:5 is why we respond to this foolishness, 26:4 is why we hesitate.

[omar111]

What difference does it make who the verse addresses? Jesus condemns Jews to Hell without giving them a chance to convert while he orders peter to follow him, but Paul called him and hypocrite and taught him the gentile way.

Maybe the gospel writers were myopic and cannot read the banner right

Matthew 27:37
"And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS."
Mark 15:26
"And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS."
Luke 23:38
"And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS."
John 19:19
"And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS."


Romans 1:22

Claiming to be wise, they became fools

The difference between Quran and bible is this that Quran is revealed through direct messages from God through Angel Gabriel. Now you can doubt it, but the method is there. It is not know that how the Bible was revealed although many theories are proposed. Bible was collected from unknown authors, who wrote in other languages. Someone translated this Bible. So we have various levels of errors in Bible. The original writers misheard the oral traditions or the scribes copied it wrongly or the translators made many mistakes. And then we have the interpolation done by later generation of Christians.
It is strange that you claim that Quran copied from Bible, but you fail to see that NT came first and it contradicted most of Old Testament.
". . . God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
(James:1:13)
"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."
(Genesis 22:1)

"I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
(Genesis 32:30)
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)
"And I [God] will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts . . ."
(Exodus 33:23)
Exodus 21:24

Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot
Luke 6:29

And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
2 Kings 2

²³ And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. ²⁴ And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
Mark 10


¹³ And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God


Deuteronomy 24 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house

<sup>Mark 10

11</sup> And He said to them, “ Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;  `

<sup>Isaiah 45

7</sup> I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things

1 john 1 ⁵ This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Exodus 20

⁵ I the Lord thy God am a jealous God

Exodus 34

¹⁴ Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God

John 4:8
“God is love
1 Corinthians 13
⁴ Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant








Maybe we have four Gods in Christianity. God of Israel, God of Gentiles, Jesus and Holy Spirit!
I already said that most of these contradictions could be defended by twisting the facts, but if you could show me such an obvious contradiction in Quran, I will believe that it is not an inspired work. I know that Christians cannot post it in the forum, but please send me a private and I will defend it.