34 replies to this topic

[Ali.20]

Belial, on 11 August 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

You said "I didnt say the Quran proves Islam is the right religion."

If this is so, then how do you also believe that the Quran "shows and proves that the creator is Allah"?

Or do you believe that Allah could be the creator without Islam?

You have to put yourself in their shoes.  You have to know and understand their position, inside and out in order to effectively defeat it.

Its like learning how to swim.  Anyone can read about how to swim, but in order to really know, you need to submerge yourself.

If you only ask for one side of the table, that is like asking republicans why conservatism is good. Or like asking democrats why liberalism is bad.

Of course, each side can convince the majority, because each side has good reasons supporting them.  It is only when you examine the opposition, that you can truly learn how great, Islam may be.

Atleast that is the point that was being made earlier in the discussion, and Id agree.

So, instead of asking "why Islam is the right reason", knowing that you already have accepted it.  You could ask, why is Christianity or buddhism the right religion along side your original question, which would demonstrate a legitimate approach.

When you said

"I need to be convinced that Islam is the right religions and ALL of the other religions are NOT the right ones."

This here, this is just not how you do it...

If you heard a christian come and say "I need to be convinced that Jesus was God", obviously, it would sound wrong.  However, christians absolutely have the ability to convince.

So, if you want to find truth, you need to start over and redesign how you criticize your ideas.


Best of luck to you.

Why can't you read what I said clearly? I said that it isn't just the Quran. Not only the Quran. Makes sense?
As for Christianity, there are many contradictions and I've read that there are three different accounts for one single event! How can I believe which one of them is true? Maybe none are true! And if I told one of them this or to you, wouldn't you say that there is something wrong with this religion?
As for the "majority" explaining of yours, see what each of the groups goals. If you choose the one with the best goals, it will benefit you. Likewise, Islam is the truth and you gotta accept it and put yourself and think outside the box. You are telling me to think like A Christain, well I ask you: Think yourself like a Muslim and go the straight path.
As for Buddhism, Buddha wrote his own teachings. There were already religions before he was even born. Anyone in this world can make his own religions with teachings that could be better than Buddha's.
Now tell me, if I showed you the wrongs with Christianity and Buddhism, then why isn't Islam the right religion? A religion that makes sense, logical. One god created the universe and people worship him. He sent 124,000 prophets to people. Last of them is Muhammad with Islam, the final religion. Worship Allah, eternal life in Heaven is for you. Be against him. forever in hell and people will have their skins burned and they will have new skin that will burn and that process will be forever. This life is a test so we can get to an eternal life. I think You need to start looking at your ideas again because you need to think that you cannot deny the truth. Why not be with the truth?
(This is the last post. Like I said and please read, my issue is solved.)

Edited by Ali.20, 11 August 2012 - 08:49 AM.

[Belial]

Ali.20, on 11 August 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

Why can't you read what I said clearly? I said that it isn't just the Quran. Not only the Quran. Makes sense?
As for Christianity, there are many contradictions and I've read that there are three different account for one single event! How can I believe which one of them is true? Maybe none are true!
As for Buddhism, Buddha wrote his own teachings. There were already religions before he was even born. Anyone in this world can make his own religions with teachings that could be better than Buddha's.
Now tell me, if I showed you the wrongs with Christianity and Buddhism, then why isn't Islam the right religion? A religion that makes sense, logical. One god created the universe and people worship him. He sent 124,000 prophets to people. Last of them is Muhammad with Islam, the final religion. Worship Allah, eternal life in Heaven is for you. Be against him. forever in hell and people will have their skins burned and they will have new skin that will burn and that process will be forever. This life is a test so we can get to an eternal life. I think You need to start looking at your ideas again because you need to think that you cannot deny the truth. Why not be with the truth?

Good.  Now, You should take those arguments and sincerely ask knowledgeable people of those religions.  And, what you can do is reform the questions and pose them against Islam.

Anyone can show "faults" when it comes to religion.  In Islam where sunni and shia beliefs have such stark differences, it is very easy to recognize discrepancies in Islam, just as any other religion.

I guarantee you, at this very moment christians are having this same conversation somewhere else. They have their own ideas about why Islam is wrong and they are in the same boat.

So, we need to crack down on the questions themselves, and the people who make them. As well as crack down on the statements you claim as truth.

You have examine how it is that you are developing your truth.

Whether it is or is not truth is a separate discussion from how you determine it to be truth. We determine truth after we have determined legitimacy in our methods.

Realistically, Christianity has many bright minds.  Majority of the world is Christian, and they are not unreasonable people.  So things are not as simple as they appear. The only way to recognize that is to embrace their ideas.

Also, if satan is said to decieve, imagine if you could fully embrace satan and still come out as a Muslim.  That would be the truest form of a muslim, one that has undergone the trials and tribulations.

Lets take an example...

ah nvm, I see you are taking your leave as well, ok

best of luck then.

Edited by Belial, 11 August 2012 - 09:12 AM.

[Ali.20]

Belial, on 11 August 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

Good.  Now, You should take those arguments and sincerely ask knowledgeable people of those religions.  And, what you can do is reform the questions and pose them against Islam.

Anyone can show "faults" when it comes to religion.  In Islam where sunni and shia beliefs have such stark differences, it is very easy to recognize discrepancies in Islam, just as any other religion.

I guarantee you, at this very moment christians are having this same conversation somewhere else. They have their own ideas about why Islam is wrong and they are in the same boat.

So, we need to crack down on the questions themselves, and the people who make them. As well as crack down on the statements you claim as truth.

You have examine how it is that you are developing your truth.

Whether it is or is not truth is a separate discussion from how you determine it to be truth. We determine truth after we have determined legitimacy in our methods.

Lets take an example...

I will pose two arguments.
1. Are there any contractions in the Qur'an?
2. Are there different accounts for events?
Because people believe that they are on the right path, even if I convince them, they will still think that they are in the right religion.
As for Islam, yes there are differences, but we all believe in one god, one Quran, and prophet Muhammad SAAWW.
You can't crack down on the statements that are the truth because it's already the truth. Bible and Torah are corrupted. It's called Tahrif. If you were there and saw that they were corrupting the books, you would have certainty that this could be no more right religion anymore. But time travel from past to present and look at what the Christains are believing in. So take out Christianity and Judaism. Are there any more religion that makes sense? Allah swt doesn't want hardship on people. He already sent 124,000 prophets. People got to change what is inside them so they can reveal the truth. A blind man cannot comprehend color but it's there. We can't see air but it's there. Why can't you get it and examine my statements very carefully and just pretend this is the truth?
[THIS IS THE LAST POST I AM NOT ANSWERING ANYMORE.]

[Abu Hadi]

Salam,

Like sis Maryamm said above, I think you are framing the question in a way that is too simplistic.
Truth has resonance in the human soul which is why all people are attracted by truth and repelled by falsehood.
Therefore, all religions have some elements of truth, otherwise, they would have no followers.
The difference between Islam and other religions are two

1) Islam is a complete religion. Islam has answers for any and every questions someone might have withing the religion itself. It doesn't leave any issues in gray areas or forcing someone to go outside the religion to answer the question. Of course, there are some questions that we cannot fully comprehend the answer to based on our limited capacity of understanding, but there is always an answer that will satisfy us to the degree that we need to be in order to retain our faith.

2) There is no falsehood in Islam. Other religions have truth mixed with some cultural aspects or false ideas passed from generation to generation and not examined or questioned. For Instance, In Christianity (the 'other religion that I am most familiar with) there are many truths such as "Love thy neighbor as thyself", treating the poor and orphans with compassion, etc. There is also some falsehood within it, the most prominent being the concept of Trinity. If you study the root and origins of this idea of Trinity, it had nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus(a.s) or Moses(a.s) or any of the Prophets but was a 'marketing gimic' introduced into the religion by Paul of Tarsus in order to sell Christianity to the Romans and Greeks who were pagan at the time. The idea of a father god and a son god and a helper god(such as Zeus and Apollo and Mercury) were common at the time in the area of the Mediterranean. These false ideas were incorporated into Christianity in order to make the religion more 'palatable' to the pagans. Paul's idea was that the most important thing for Christianity was numbers, not ideaology, so he sacrificed the ideaology and the original monotheism of Christianity (the original teaching of Jesus) in order to bump up the number of Christians. So falsehood was introduced early on and got incorporated into the religion. This is one of the reasons why Allah(s.w.a) sent Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h) and the Holy Quran in order to clarify these issues that Paul and his ilk had made confusing for the people who wished to worship Allah(s.w.a) and follow the true teachings of Jesus(a.s).

The more you study Islam, the more you realize that Allah(s.w.a) saved Islam from being polluted with these false ideas and kept it pure.
This is a continuous miracle which no other religion can claim.

Salam.

Edited by Abu Hadi, 11 August 2012 - 09:14 AM.

[Son of Placid]

Hi Ali.20

I don't see any black and white answers here so I don't know how you believe your question was answered. I probably won't give you one either.
A bombardment is intimidating but is to be expected, especially if it questions anything about Islam. As a Christian I have to be very careful how I ask/answer anything, obviously so do you. lol

I once said that parts of the Quran just don't make sense to me. I even said "to me". The next 7 out of 10 posts were insulted and let me know. No death threats, wasn't booted, so here I still am. Interesting that most of the names that posted I never saw before, nor since. The other posts totally ignored and went on with other arguments pertaining to the topic, etc.

I agree with Maryamm that people have a God consciousness  and seek truth. Many religions have some truth. Many are based on superstition but give enough of (what is precieved as) truth to be inviting. Others take what is truth and twist it to their gain.  

To the Natives of NA it was the great Manitoo. Here again, one God, but many spirits to serve. God's spirits? Not all. Good spirits and evil spirits. (Not happy jinn and bad jinn), good and evil, they saw what we can't, yet they sought out the good. If you saw them you would call them polythiests, but they weren't. They didn't have any scriptures, yet they found God, somehow. Did they all go to hell? I doubt it.

The reason I'm responding is, because I finally have some time to sit down, but more importantly to respond to your statement:

Quote

So take out Christianity and Judaism

I agree, mainstream Christianity would seem to be way off track, but 2:62, 5:69, 5:82 means Christians have enough truth. 61:14 says a lot more, worthy of it's own thread.

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve"

Absolute truth is impossible, what we have is a preception of truth from what we experience and learn from others. It's still a preception. None of us can claim to have it all. What you can get here is Islam through a Muslim's interpretation of Islam. Islam and Muslim is often confused as meaning the same thing.

As I've said before...If Islam is the name given to what the Prophets taught I'm okay with that. Let's call it Islam. I believe the two statements Abu Hadi makes are true but his reasons for thinking so are different than mine.

Quote

1) Islam is a complete religion. Islam has answers for any and every questions someone might have withing the religion itself. It doesn't leave any issues in gray areas or forcing someone to go outside the religion to answer the question. Of course, there are some questions that we cannot fully comprehend the answer to based on our limited capacity of understanding, but there is always an answer that will satisfy us to the degree that we need to be in order to retain our faith.

Islam IS a complete religion but is claimed by Muslims as their own. They will tell you that all the prophets taught Islam, (all 124,000 which nobody can name), as did Jesus, as did Paul of Tarsus, but what is Islam?

Surrender to God. Can that be claimed by just one religion?

Quote

Romans 12:1-2 Therefore, I urge you,  brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice,  holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. ² Do not conform  to the pattern of this world,  but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.  Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is —his good, pleasing  and perfect will.

That was Paul. According to this he must have been a Muslim. If that doesn't say surrender what does?
I know Muslims are programmed to hate him, but what does he actually say? You just read it.

Islam is a complete religion that cannot be answered by the Quran. It was posted here that the Quran is incomplete without the help of Sunnah and hadith. Quran is Divine, Sunnah is considered as divine, hadith is all over the place but accepted, some more than others. There's your Muslim corruption.
(Jesus gets 40(more?) virgins for standing in the rain) (Jesus comes back in not one but two yellow dresses and physically cuts off the heads of all christians with a sword.) You tell me...
It leaves some Muslims believing in peace and others believing in global jihad. How can you bring these together and say it's all one religion, let alone call it Islam?

Islam is a battered and abused word.

Quote

2) There is no falsehood in Islam. Other religions have truth mixed with some cultural aspects or false ideas passed from generation to generation and not examined or questioned. For Instance, In Christianity (the 'other religion that I am most familiar with) there are many truths such as "Love thy neighbor as thyself", treating the poor and orphans with compassion, etc. There is also some falsehood within it, the most prominent being the concept of Trinity. If you study the root and origins of this idea of Trinity, it had nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus(a.s) or Moses(a.s) or any of the Prophets but was a 'marketing gimic' introduced into the religion by Paul of Tarsus in order to sell Christianity to the Romans and Greeks who were pagan at the time. The idea of a father god and a son god and a helper god(such as Zeus and Apollo and Mercury) were common at the time in the area of the Mediterranean. These false ideas were incorporated into Christianity in order to make the religion more 'palatable' to the pagans. Paul's idea was that the most important thing for Christianity was numbers, not ideaology, so he sacrificed the ideaology and the original monotheism of Christianity (the original teaching of Jesus) in order to bump up the number of Christians. So falsehood was introduced early on and got incorporated into the religion. This is one of the reasons why Allah(s.w.a) sent Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h) and the Holy Quran in order to clarify these issues that Paul and his ilk had made confusing for the people who wished to worship Allah(s.w.a) and follow the true teachings of Jesus(a.s).

There can be no falsehood in Islam...if we actually knew what it was. I'd change "other religions" to "all religions" for obvious reasons.
There's lots of falsehoods in Christianity but not because they corrupted the Bible. Paul's always the first one to pick on.

Paul never said trinity, nor did he introduce it. That was a doctrine brought in around 325 AD. The council of Nicea. Muslims like to take it and run. Look at any of Paul's introductions and you will always see a separation between God and Jesus. He never says Jesus is God, he never says the Holy Spirit is God. Twist a few words, phrases and there you have it. Many of the falsehoods in the Bible are Muslim made. Paul was not a trinitarian.

Quote

The more you study Islam, the more you realize that Allah(s.w.a) saved Islam from being polluted with these false ideas and kept it pure.
This is a continuous miracle which no other religion can claim.

Since Muslims consider all prophets to preach Islam it's obviously not a Muhammad discovery. The straight path has always been there and being a Muslim will not get you to heaven any faster, (unless being a Muslim helps you die sooner). Moses, Abraham, Judah, Jesus, and the other 123, 995 prophets never mentioned a black stone, neither does the Quran. It's not what's in the scriptures but what's around them that's corrupted.

It was also mentioned that only Islam teaches morals.
Islam has taught morals all along, why do Muslims think they are the only ones to recieve it? Check out 1 Timothy 2:8-10

Quote

⁸ Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands  without anger or disputing. ⁹ I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes,   ¹⁰ but with good deeds,  appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

That's Paul again. Of course he doesn't go into detail about hijab and burka, but neither does the Quran. Nowhere does it say that women have to hide in a tent-dress or be killed, (As in the experience of a female journalist in Afghanistan), nor does it say hijab and designer jeans are appropriate, but I see that every day.

Ali Musaaa, post #2 was probably your best response.

May God bless you in your search.

[Abu Hadi]

Hello Son of Placid,

A few points just to clarify

1) In order for us to know what you believe, please answer the following question, Yes or No

Do you believe that Jesus or the Holy Spirit have any power independent of God ?

If you answer that, then I can answer the other points,

[Son of Placid]

Abu Hadi, on 11 August 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

Hello Son of Placid,

A few points just to clarify

1) In order for us to know what you believe, please answer the following question, Yes or No

Do you believe that Jesus or the Holy Spirit have any power independent of God ?

If you answer that, then I can answer the other points,

I don't understand what this question has to do with the overall thread nor how what I believe can be expressed by a yes or no answer. Plus, I know you as being the guy with the loaded questions.

I'm tempted to post a "yes", then another post for "no" as it would seem you have an answer for both.

[Ali.20]

Son of Placid, on 11 August 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

I don't understand what this question has to do with the overall thread nor how what I believe can be expressed by a yes or no answer. Plus, I know you as being the guy with the loaded questions.

I'm tempted to post a "yes", then another post for "no" as it would seem you have an answer for both.

Please i don't want any more posts. If you want to debate, create another thread. I already solved my issue and said no more posts.

[Son of Placid]

Ali.20, on 12 August 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

Please i don't want any more posts. If you want to debate, create another thread. I already solved my issue and said no more posts.

Sorry but what you created is a public thread, You may be done with it but as you can see, others aren't.
The best for you would be to stop looking at it. You've said twice you would no longer respond yet here you are again. You can't control who does respond so it is basically out of your hands, and being public, it never was your jurisdiction.

BTW, you never mentioned what you solved, or how. It's more like you ran away. <------ totally my opinion, plz correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ali.20]

Son of Placid, on 12 August 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

Sorry but what you created is a public thread, You may be done with it but as you can see, others aren't.
The best for you would be to stop looking at it. You've said twice you would no longer respond yet here you are again. You can't control who does respond so it is basically out of your hands, and being public, it never was your jurisdiction.

BTW, you never mentioned what you solved, or how. It's more like you ran away. <------ totally my opinion, plz correct me if I'm wrong.

1. Please read and understand that there will be no more posts. Even if it's public, I made the thread. I already solved my issue, and I'll explain.
2. As for the "ran away" parth, I solved the issue, why is Islam the right religion. One reason is that I found a verse saying that if all humans and jinn came to write such a book, they couldn't. That makes the book divine, and if it's divine, it has the words of Allah, and if it has the words of Allah, and if all humans and jinn came to write such a book, they couldn't, that explains that Allah is truthful and the most truthful. Because of that, Islam is also true. And I am Muslim and proud to be.
3. Please don't post anything anymore. I solved my issue. Please read and understand. Thanks.