Qa, on 03 August 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:
Just some quick questions: is there another reason why you stopped at Zadok, other than the significance of him being the twelfth high priest? Especially since many people succeeded him. Do you view these individuals as hujjaj in the Islamic sense? If so, then what was the status of the prophets in between them (such as Dawud [as], Sulayman [as] and others)?
Salaam, good questions.
Okay let me separate them to make things clear:
1) Stopping at Zadok
Well, it happened in the reverse to what you think, I was (quite a while ago) reading about Pharisees and the priesthood of the children of Israel because I wanted to better understand what were the approaches of different Jews to Isa [as], I had watched a documentary about Essene connections to early apocryphal Christianity, I started googling when I found a few articles and sections contrasting them (Pharisees) to the Sudduccees. Most of what I read was negative (Josephus said they are like wild animals, but at the same time they were mostly of nobility) something told me to dig deeper... ...like when the tableeghi school I attended as a kid taught me that 'ithna-Asharis believe Ali [as] is hiding in a cave with the Qur'aan until the Mahdi comes... ...I started reading about this sect and found that they were named for their High Priest, the Tzadokim, so I started reading about their High Priest... ...I realised that he was their 12th much later. I don't mean for this to be a key focal-point at all, the other details I aforemention here make enough of a case for deeper study.
Anyway in fact according to what I've come across on wikipedia, he isn't the 12th at all, Ahimelech, Zadok's grandfather is, how I am note sure. So it was just more to learn about their priesthood system using the limited information we have available. It makes me wonder too, but if Ahimelech is their 12th who are the other two missing priests? ...the mystery priests.
The last reason is that all that come after Zadok are known by his name "sons of Zadok," in the book of Ezekiel they will preside over the 3rd temple. (That doesn't exist)
2) What is their status among the Prophets [as]
Whether we can trust the Bible as a source is another question altogether, but anyway continuing...
In Samuel the Priests of Nob and the same Ahimelech sort of "saved" David [as].
There are also conflicting accounts of whether Abiathar or Zadok were appointed under Solomon [as]. (They both possibly were)
I'll come back to this question from an Islamic perspective after I see what answers I get for the last question I pose at the end of this post... ...otherwise I will giving away my theory.
For now, seeing that you understand where I am going I will say that one must understand the role of High Priest was similar to that Imaam Ali [as] in RasulAllah's (S) time, or Aaron [as] in Moses's [as] time. Kings and Prophets [as] also have a similar dimension as we see in the case of Talut [as], it is possible to have both, or even King-Prophets as in the case of David [as] and Solomon [as]. It is difficult to say whether we can treat the role of priesthood the very same as we treat Imaamate, because we then have to assume that Zadok as an example was an 'Imaam' in his time even before his appointment as Cohen Gadol, thus you see the dilemna, we will just be stretching the story/ reaching without knowledge. As our Imaams [as] were Imaams without the necessity of executive powers.
I personally prefer to see it in a case of active and passive Imaamate roles. Like if I ask who was the Imaam [as] in the time of RasulAllah (S) and Imaam Ali [as], while he was still alive? RasulAllah (S) ofcourse was Imaam. Likewise with Imaam Hasan [as] & Husayn [as], Imaam Hasan [as] was (active) Imaam as long as he was alive, having received this station from Imaam Ali [as] himself.
muslimunity1, on 04 August 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:
MashAllah interesting thread.
I'm doing research at the moment on similarities between Prophet Muhammed s.a.w.w Imam Ali a.s and Hazrat Musa a.s/Hazrat Haroon a.s (Aaron), do you have any information on this particular topic?
Yes brother to answer your question, looks like you already know about the parallel of Harun [as] to Ali [as] from Bukhari, so I will state a lesser known traditon to also help...
There is a tradition in Al-Muraja'aat I remember:
The Holy Prophet
peace be upon him and his progeny, had insisted that `Ali should name his sons just like Aaron did, calling them Hasan, Husayn, and Muhsin? He [as] has said: "I have named them after Aaron's sons, Shabar, Shubayr, and Mushbir,"
This is quoted by the traditionists according to their own authentic sources of the traditions of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him and his progeny. Refer to pages 265 and 168, Vol. 3, of Al-Mustadrak, and you will find the text of this hadith described as authentic according to the endorsement of both Shaykhs. Imam Ahmed has also quoted it from `Ali's hadith on page 98, Vol. 1, of his Musnad. Ibn `Abdel-Birr, too, quotes the biography of the grandson of the Prophet al-Hasan [as] from Isti`ab, and even al-Thahbi quotes it in his Talkhis, taking its authenticity for granted, in spite of his fanaticism and deviation from this nation's Aaron, and from its Shabar and Shubayr. It is also quoted by al-Baghwi in his Mu`jam, and `Abdul-Ghani from his Idah, as is recorded on page 115 of Al-Sawaiq al-Muhriqa, from Salman whose text is almost similar, and also from Ibn `Asakir.
A further proof as I have already stated is that while our (beloved) Sunni brethren always raise the objection to us that Harun [as] - because he was elder, passed away during the life of Musa [as], does not escape the fact that he passed the leadership onto the sons of Harun [as], even though he (Musa) was not without sons himself.
Moses - > Gershom and Eliezer, whom also had sons.
But we find:
"And Aaron and his sons I will sanctify to serve me." (Exodus)
Jews see the above verse as God's appointment of Harun [as] and his sons to the position of leadership of the Tabernacle. Moses's declaration of Aaron to head of the Tabernacle was also said to have been a precondition for God to bestow his Shekhinah (Sakinah / Peace) on the children on Israel. (If that's not a Ghadeer moment, than I don't know what is)
'Shabar & Shubayr' might well be the arabic versions of
'Ithamar & Eleazar' but we can't know for sure.
In this section I will state some similarities between AhlulBayt [as] and the Cohanim, i.e the Aaronite line.
The AhlulBayt [as] were of the tribe of Banu Hashim
The Cohanim were of the tribe of Levi
Let me start by saying not all Cohanim are Priests, in the same way not everyone whom descends from the Holy Prophet (S) is AhlulBayt [as], that being said:
Station of Imaamate was reserved for the AhlulBayt [as]
Station of Gadol was reserved for the Cohanim
The AhlulBayt [as] were due Khums (1/5) 20%
The Cohanim were due the Tithe (1/10) 10%
The name Zadok (Hebrew) means 'Righteous' (root is Tzadik)
In Arabic we would say Suduq / Sadiq. As in Imam Ja'far As-Sadiq [as]
The name Eli (Hebrew) means 'Ascent'
In Arabic we would say Ali
The Sadducees or Tzadokim are named for their CohenGadol, Zadok.
Shi'as also named for their Imaam, Jafaris.
There are special laws in Jewish law pertaining to treatment of Cohanim. (Such as Cohen-mukhzaq and law of sanctifying the Cohen)
Which are not dissimilar to sanctity laws in Islam pertaining to Sayyids. It's apparent that understanding Jewish laws for modern-day Cohanim are very much like us, not an issue to do with right to Imaamate, but to none the less have a special place of respect.
Punishements were also given by the Levites, seen in the Golden Calf account. And for more info you can read about the 24 Cohanim gifts.
I fear our enemies might use this information against us, some Abdullah ibn Saba argument-revivalists.
In this section I will state what both Qa'im and Khadim uz Zahrah know clearly already:
You guessed it; we have become the Jews of our time !
A prophecy of our beloved Prophet
has been fulfilled.
Now while the history doesn't always flow completely parallel with Judaism (if it did we would have found this a lot earlier), never the less it is horrifying to me as a Muslim.
- In the Pharisees we clearly see our Sunni Brethren.
- In the Essenes we clearly see Sufis, especially early Sufi movements.
- In the Sadducees we see ourselves.
- In the Zealots we see the Wahaabi movement, especially if we look at Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahaab's biography.
(Not necessarily all modern day Salaafis)
- In the Karaites, we see the Qur'aanites, Shabbir Ahmed and the likes.
We have made every mistake they have made and we may be at a very critical time in our lives !!! Please pay attention here.
The Jews at the time when they had these sects had lost control of Jerusalem to the Romans, then was the SECOND destruction of the temple.
PLEASE LISTEN CAREFULLY!
The FIRST DESTRUCTION, the destruction of Solomon's temple occured on the 10th day of the 10th month (Tevet) of the Jewish calendar, the Jews call This 'Asarah,' in other words Ashurah! (The 10th)
Religious Jews fast on that day...
And just to preempt there is another fast on the 10th day of the Jewish calendar, another notable Jewish day takes place on the 10th of Tishri and this is Yom Kippur. But the fast in Tevet is KNOWN AS Asarah, no one called Yom Kippur 'asarah b'tishri' in the same way we don't call fasting or the day at Arafah 'tasu'ah fi-dhul-hijjah' or any other anything else.
This was a MAJOR calamity in Jewish History.
What was the first MAJOR calamity Islamic History?
"And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture: Ye verily will work corruption in the earth twice, and ye will become great tyrants.
So when the time for the first of the two came, We roused against you slaves of Ours of great might who ravaged (your) country, and it was a threat performed.
Then we gave you once again your turn against them, and We aided you with wealth and children and made you more in soldiery.
(Saying): If ye do good, ye do good for your own souls, and if ye do evil, it is for them (in like manner). So, when the time for the second (of the judgments) came (We roused against you others of Our slaves) to ravage you, and to enter the Temple even as they entered it the first time, and to lay waste all that they conquered with an utter wasting.
It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, but if ye repeat (the crime) We shall repeat (the punishment), and We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers.
Lo! this Qur'an guideth unto that which is straightest, and giveth tidings unto the believers who do good works that theirs will be a great reward.
And that those who believe not in the Hereafter, for them We have prepared a painful doom.
Man prayeth for evil as he prayeth for good; for man was ever hasty." [Qur'aan 17:4 - 17:11]
The second calamity happened after many did not listen to Isa [as]
Then there was no temple and they were banished into exile.
Then they suffered at the hand of the Nazis and now they have the State of Israel. (Time again for a new lesson)
The first time was the Babylonians, the second was the Romans...
...a thought occurred to me as I was reflecting upon the matter:
When most Muslims look at the Jews (all - in general) of that time they see them as the defiant slayers of o
ur (own shared) prophets [as]. Whereas it was likely a small party among the Jews that killed their messengers [as]
If we Muslims apply this lens to ourselves then we are likewise (all) the killers of Imaam Husayn ! It is a scary thought. But it's truth. We killed our righteous ones like those who came before us did.
Srebrenica, Burma... ...I hope as we Muslims suffer through our holocausts we learn the lessons that history has taught us, we were at times haughty and oppressed others when we had "great empires" (no matter how much some might romanticize those periods)
I hope we learn our lessons... ...lest we end up with at the helm of a "powerful state" and oppress others as we have been oppressed - like members of another 'One God' faith we know.
Other Remarks: From what I read of apocryphal texts it's all giberish to me, something about Sophia, strange angels names and 'the fallen,' I still can't make sense of it. Clearly my Bible knowledge needs work. Then there's the Zohar in Jewish mysticism, methinks I'll stay away from that stuff.
So I pose this question to you brothers and sisters, consider this your homework!
I have my own theory, but let's see what answers we get...
...What happened to the Sadducees? They just pretty much disappear off the face of the earth after the destruction of the second temple?
Where did they go?
Edited by JawzofDETH, 07 August 2012 - 05:37 PM.