Greetings to all.
Christianlady's post/reply (#5) brings up points I think no one has answered yet. So I'm going to go ahead and take a shot at it.
Quote:"The vast majority of Christians believe that Jesus and the Father are one because Jesus said so."
Reply: The quote that you have given and the statement you have made my job a bit easier. If you read the context, which I am sure you have read
already, you can easily tell that when Jesus says I and the Father are one, he clearly means one in purpose.
The verses before this verse clearly indicate that fact. Christians often use this verse to show the validity of the Trinity.
Another problem is that even if this verse did not mean that, it would mean there is a Duality rather than a Trinity.
Quote: "With God, nothing is impossible!"
Reply: This statement is incorrect. The Bible itself states God cannot do certain things.
These are from KJV (one the most common forms of the Bible used, the other is the NIV)
Take a look at Hebrews 6:18 "That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:"
Titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;"
Because he is holy (Isaiah 6:3; 1 Peter 1:16), he cannot sin.
So in fact, some things are impossible for God. For example, can God cast you out of his domain? No, because he is everywhere.
To say God can do anything and everything is incorrect.
He is all-powerful, yes, and that means He has power over all things. But nowhere, at least in the religion Islam, it is claimed that God can do anything, rather it claims God has power over all things. This does not restrict the power of God.
So, if we look at the matter in depth, you will find Jesus is not God, not divine. A person cannot be mortal and immortal at the same time. A person cannot be all-powerful, yet not all-powerful at the same time. A person cannot be unlimited, yet limited at the same time.
Another way to look at it is this. For the sake of the argument, let's say that yes, God can do anything. Fine, he can become a human being. But what you have to realize is that as soon as God becomes a human, he ceases to be God. Because BY DEFINITION, God is immortal. Once even a part of him, as you claim, becomes a human, that part is no longer God because it does not retain the definition of God, and it becomes limited. Another example; God has no beginning nor an end. Jesus has a beginning and an end as a human/God. Something cannot have a beginning, and yet not have a beginning at the same time.
Quote: "One thing Muslims do not realize is saying that God cannot make a portion of Himself to be a man that obeys God, is actually denying the omnipotence of God."
Reply: This doesn't deny the omnipotence, because the definition of omnipotence is having all power, i.e. being all-powerful. Having omnipotence does not mean you can do anything and everything.
We strenghten Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì's omnipotence, not deny it, because we remove the logical fallacy that results from the divinity of Jesus.
Quote: " God is not a hypocrite that says for His Creation to do things, which He himself would not do if He was in the same situation. God placing Himself in the situation of man is amazing, because God, who is above physical pain, felt physical pain for people who suffer physical pain. Jesus suffered torture, which has and was and is being suffered by people all over the world. God understands and empathizes with the pain mere mortals suffer through Jesus. God is not a cruel dictator who allows people to suffer and doesn't try to care about the pain others endure, no. God experienced through Jesus the weakness of human flesh."
Reply: Now we get into the real spice of things.
God created rules and regulations for humans. He sent his law and his prophets to give guidance to humans. Obviously he is not a hypocrite, because nothing he commands is applicable to himself.
Next we come to the important part. God became flesh to experience the pains of humankind, suffer like them. Are you saying that God did not know what suffering and pain felt like, from a human perspective? Because that would be denying that God is All-Knowing.
Tell me, if you make a TV, do you have to become the TV to know how it works? Not at all.
God does not need to experience human's pain because he already knows about it.
Quote: "God is uncreated. God creating Himself into a man does not change the fact that nobody created God. God created His Word, and God created His plan concerning how to relate to mankind, His Creation."
Reply: Here, you refute yourself.
Premise 1: "God is uncreated."
Premise 2: Jesus is God.
Premise 3: "God created His Word" (God created Jesus)
Conclusion: Jesus is not God since he was created by God, who is uncreated.
And the statement that God created himself makes no sense. No offense or anything, but if God is uncreated, but he also created himself, this makes a meaningless and nonsensical statement.
Quote: "Both. That is why the vast majority of Christians believe that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. I, by the way, am 100% human and 100% female, 100% daughter (of my parents) and 100% wife (of my husband.)
Reply: I have already discussed the first part. The second part, your example, it doesn't prove anything because none of those are contradicting. Being God and a human, is contradictory, by defintion(s). But there is no contradiction in being a female, a human, a daughter, and a wife at the same time.
I hope I haven't offended anyone, and I eagerly wait for your response.
On a side note, I would like to invite you, Christianlady, to a new thread I am starting titled "Divinity of Jesus?". Placid will also be a part of that discussion, InshaAllah.
I'll post this post as the starting dicussion for the thread, as well.
May Allah (TBRK), guide us all to the right path.
Greetings to everyone. I made this above post in the thread "Trinity And Omnipotence" in reply to Christianlady. I think it could be used as a good springboard to start the discussion. Although I would prefer this discussion to remain between Christianlady, Placid, and I, if any of you have a point to make, feel free to do so.
I challenge anyone to find one clear, concise statement where Jesus himself states that he is God. You will find none. Whereas in the OT, God makes it clear again and again that He is the Lord, and that He is God, Jesus never does it.
The main point of this topic, or the main question(s) is: Why is Jesus divine? How is divinity being attributed to Jesus?
Although quotation of scripture can be used to support points, try to make the quotations concise and use what you need, not the whole chapter or so. I'll be using the KJV for my quotes.
A few more things that I want to state (so we have a base for the discussion):
----Did any of the prophets in the OT believe in the Trinity or the divinity of a human being (or prediction of the divinity of a human being)?
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?". Guess where that quote came from. Not the Qur'an, but the Bible (KJV).
---Did Jesus think he was divine? If he thought he was God, he could not be a man, like us, because a man does not think he is God. If he thought he was a man, then he could not be God, because God does not think He is a man. And he could not have thought he was God-man, because one, there is no scriptural evidence for that, and two, it is illogical and does not make sense.
---Jesus could not do anything of himself. "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." -John 5:30
God should be able to do what he wants.
---"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord"-Mark 12:29. I bolded the words I wanted to stress. First, Jesus said OUR God. If he was God, rather than the messenger of God, shouldn't his wording be a tad bit different to be correct? Next, God is one Lord. Now, Christians claim Jesus is God. But so is the Father. Now they, are both one God. If I agree with this, there is one problem; they could then not be one Lord. There would be two Lords, one God. The Father and the Son.
---"For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed"-Malachi 3:6. This statement, if true, would mean Jesus is not God because he changed from God to become manifest as a human. So, he changed form.
---" But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." -Mark 13:32. Woah, hold on there. Jesus is God, All-Knowing, yet he doesn't know about that day and that hour?
---"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" -John 14:9. This quote means Jesus is one with the Father, right? Wrong:
"And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." -John 5:37.
---"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:"-Acts 2:22. This quote, with the words I bolded, should speak for itself. Jesus is a man APPROVED of God. Not a man who IS God.
---"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."- John 17:3. The only true God is the one to send Jesus. God didn't send himself.There is a sharp distinction.
---One of the more important points is that if Jesus is God because he has no father, then shouldn't Adam be God because he has neither a mother nor a father? In fact, he should be a greater God because at least Jesus has a mother.
And finally: Jesus being the son of God (as Christians say) doesn't make him divine, because: "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."-Romans 8:14.
Giving Jesus divinity creates much confusion. But wait I thought "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."-1 Corinthians 14:33.
It makes much more sense that Jesus is the messenger and prophet of Allah سبحانه وتعالى.
That is a lot of writing, I am eager for the responses. Thank you for reading.
May Allah (TBRK), guide us all to the right path.
Edited by KnowledgeIslam, 31 July 2012 - 07:54 PM.