56 replies to this topic

[KnowledgeIslam]

Greetings to all.

Christianlady's post/reply (#5) brings up points I think no one has answered yet. So I'm going to go ahead and take a shot at it.

Quote:"The vast majority of Christians believe that Jesus and the Father are one because Jesus said so."

Reply: The quote that you have given and the statement you have made my job a bit easier. If you read the context, which I am sure you have read
already, you can easily tell that when Jesus says I and the Father are one, he clearly means one in purpose.
The verses before this verse clearly indicate that fact. Christians often use this verse to show the validity of the Trinity.
Another problem is that even if this verse did not mean that, it would mean there is a Duality rather than a Trinity.

Quote: "With God, nothing is impossible!"

Reply: This statement is incorrect. The Bible itself states God cannot do certain things.
These are from KJV (one the most common forms of the Bible used, the other is the NIV)
Take a look at Hebrews 6:18 "That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:"
Titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;"
Because he is holy (Isaiah 6:3; 1 Peter 1:16), he cannot sin.
So in fact, some things are impossible for God. For example, can God cast you out of his domain? No, because he is everywhere.

To say God can do anything and everything is incorrect.
He is all-powerful, yes, and that means He has power over all things. But nowhere, at least in the religion Islam, it is claimed that God can do anything, rather it claims God has power over all things. This does not restrict the power of God.
So, if we look at the matter in depth, you will find Jesus is not God, not divine. A person cannot be mortal and immortal at the same time. A person cannot be all-powerful, yet not all-powerful at the same time. A person cannot be unlimited, yet limited at the same time.
Another way to look at it is this. For the sake of the argument, let's say that yes, God can do anything. Fine, he can become a human being. But what you have to realize is that as soon as God becomes a human, he ceases to be God. Because BY DEFINITION, God is immortal. Once even a part of him, as you claim, becomes a human, that part is no longer God because it does not retain the definition of God, and it becomes limited. Another example; God has no beginning nor an end. Jesus has a beginning and an end as a human/God. Something cannot have a beginning, and yet not have a beginning at the same time.

Quote: "One thing Muslims do not realize is saying that God cannot make a portion of Himself to be a man that obeys God, is actually denying the omnipotence of God."

Reply: This doesn't deny the omnipotence, because the definition of omnipotence is having all power, i.e. being all-powerful. Having omnipotence does not mean you can do anything and everything.
We strenghten Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì's omnipotence, not deny it, because we remove the logical fallacy that results from the divinity of Jesus.

Quote: " God is not a hypocrite that says for His Creation to do things, which He himself would not do if He was in the same situation. God placing Himself in the situation of man is amazing, because God, who is above physical pain, felt physical pain for people who suffer physical pain. Jesus suffered torture, which has and was and is being suffered by people all over the world. God understands and empathizes with the pain mere mortals suffer through Jesus. God is not a cruel dictator who allows people to suffer and doesn't try to care about the pain others endure, no. God experienced through Jesus the weakness of human flesh."

Reply: Now we get into the real spice of things.
God created rules and regulations for humans. He sent his law and his prophets to give guidance to humans. Obviously he is not a hypocrite, because nothing he commands is applicable to himself.
Next we come to the important part. God became flesh to experience the pains of humankind, suffer like them. Are you saying that God did not know what suffering and pain felt like, from a human perspective? Because that would be denying that God is All-Knowing.
Tell me, if you make a TV, do you have to become the TV to know how it works? Not at all.
God does not need to experience human's pain because he already knows about it.

Quote: "God is uncreated. God creating Himself into a man does not change the fact that nobody created God. God created His Word, and God created His plan concerning how to relate to mankind, His Creation."

Reply: Here, you refute yourself.
Premise 1: "God is uncreated."
Premise 2: Jesus is God.
Premise 3: "God created His Word" (God created Jesus)
Conclusion: Jesus is not God since he was created by God, who is uncreated.
And the statement that God created himself makes no sense. No offense or anything, but if God is uncreated, but he also created himself, this makes a meaningless and nonsensical statement.

Quote: "Both. That is why the vast majority of Christians believe that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. I, by the way, am 100% human and 100% female, 100% daughter (of my parents) and 100% wife (of my husband.)

Reply: I have already discussed the first part. The second part, your example, it doesn't prove anything because none of those are contradicting. Being God and a human, is contradictory, by defintion(s). But there is no contradiction in being a female, a human, a daughter, and a wife at the same time.

I hope I haven't offended anyone, and I eagerly wait for your response.
On a side note, I would like to invite you, Christianlady, to a new thread I am starting titled "Divinity of Jesus?". Placid will also be a part of that discussion, InshaAllah.
I'll post this post as the starting dicussion for the thread, as well.

May Allah (TBRK), guide us all to the right path.

Greetings to everyone. I made this above post in the thread "Trinity And Omnipotence" in reply to Christianlady. I think it could be used as a good springboard to start the discussion. Although I would prefer this discussion to remain between Christianlady, Placid, and I, if any of you have a point to make, feel free to do so.



I challenge anyone to find one clear, concise statement where Jesus himself states that he is God. You will find none. Whereas in the OT, God makes it clear again and again that He is the Lord, and that He is God, Jesus never does it.


The main point of this topic, or the main question(s) is: Why is Jesus divine? How is divinity being attributed to Jesus?


Although quotation of scripture can be used to support points, try to make the quotations concise and use what you need, not the whole chapter or so. I'll be using the KJV for my quotes.


A few more things that I want to state (so we have a base for the discussion):


----Did any of the prophets in the OT believe in the Trinity or the divinity of a human being (or prediction of the divinity of a human being)?
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?". Guess where that quote came from. Not the Qur'an, but the Bible (KJV).

---Did Jesus think he was divine? If he thought he was God, he could not be a man, like us, because a man does not think he is God. If he thought he was a man, then he could not be God, because God does not think He is a man. And he could not have thought he was God-man, because one, there is no scriptural evidence for that, and two, it is illogical and does not make sense.

---Jesus could not do anything of himself. "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." -John 5:30
God should be able to do what he wants.

---"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord"-Mark 12:29. I bolded the words I wanted to stress. First, Jesus said OUR God. If he was God, rather than the messenger of God, shouldn't his wording be a tad bit different to be correct? Next, God is one Lord. Now, Christians claim Jesus is God. But so is the Father. Now they, are both one God. If I agree with this, there is one problem; they could then not be one Lord. There would be two Lords, one God. The Father and the Son.
---"For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed"-Malachi 3:6. This statement, if true, would mean Jesus is not God because he changed from God to become manifest as a human. So, he changed form.
---" But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." -Mark 13:32. Woah, hold on there. Jesus is God, All-Knowing, yet he doesn't know about that day and that hour?
---"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" -John 14:9. This quote means Jesus is one with the Father, right? Wrong:
"And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." -John 5:37.
---"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:"-Acts 2:22. This quote, with the words I bolded, should speak for itself. Jesus is a man APPROVED of God. Not a man who IS God.
---"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."- John 17:3. The only true God is the one to send Jesus. God didn't send himself.There is a sharp distinction.
---One of the more important points is that if Jesus is God because he has no father, then shouldn't Adam be God because he has neither a mother nor a father? In fact, he should be a greater God because at least Jesus has a mother.
And finally: Jesus being the son of God (as Christians say) doesn't make him divine, because: "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."-Romans 8:14.

Giving Jesus divinity creates much confusion. But wait I thought "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."-1 Corinthians 14:33.

It makes much more sense that Jesus is the messenger and prophet of Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

That is a lot of writing, I am eager for the responses. Thank you for reading.
May Allah (TBRK), guide us all to the right path.

Edited by KnowledgeIslam, 31 July 2012 - 07:54 PM.

[placid]

Hi Knowledge,

Yes, the Divinity of Jesus is one of the common subjects.

The word 'trinity' is not found in the Bible, neither is there a 'doctrine of trinity' anywhere in Scripture. The word 'trinity' is a shortening of 'tri-unity' and was meant to simplify the understanding of the relationship of God and mankind, but it added more confusion.

There is a compound word that we use frequently and don't think about. It is 'university,' which means 'unity in diversity.' --- This could help us to understand the Three in heaven,
I will first make a statement which then you can ask about:

I have always said that the 'trinity' doctrine, of the Nicene Creed was a faulty doctrine.

We acknowledge the Scriptures which say that there are --- ‘Three in heaven,’ which is not the faulty part, --- but the idea of being ‘co-equal’ is not a good concept because in the Scriptures, OT and NT, the Word (Logos) and the Holy Spirit were always seen as ‘Servants of God,’ or ‘Manifestations of God.’

Notice this verse in 1 John 5:
7. “For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.”

I believe that Muhammad would have known this NT verse, and was referring to it when he responded to some Christians (perhaps Trinitarians) in Surah 4:
171. O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God.

This is the truth of 1 John 5:7,
Jesus, the Messiah, was the Messenger of God, (the Father), --- And of His Word (Logos) which he conveyed into Mary (for the virgin birth), --- and a Spirit (the Holy Spirit) from Him (God). --- And don’t say “Three” --- God is only One God.

--- Do you see what I am saying? The “Three” are involved, as they are ‘manifested’ many places throughout the Scripture, but the “Three” are of God, --- and are in unity and in harmony.

But notice that Jesus, the Messenger was not one of them.
However, the Word (Logos) indwelt the body of Jesus from the time of conception until His ascension (Surah 3:55), --- but Jesus was human from a human mother.

So here is my understanding:
Jesus was human, but His indwelling Spirit was The Word (Logos) of God, therefore, of Divinity. --- Jesus had a human body and a Divine Spirit.

--- The Word indwelt Jesus, and the Holy Spirit accompanied Jesus, so ‘God was with Him’ throughout His life, ---
--- Jesus could speak as a human saying, “I am hungry,” --- “I am thirsty,“ --- “I am tired.”

--- But at the same time, the Word (through whom all things were created, John 1:2-3), could speak through the voice of Jesus and say, “Before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58
--- The Word could speak as God because He was of God.

In fact, it says this in John 1:
1. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. (The Word ‘manifested’ God, so wherever the Word was, --- God was.)

In this sense we understand 2 Corinthians 5:
19. --- God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself,
--- God (in the Personage of the Word, Logos) was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.

In Surah 4:172 Is says "Jesus will not object to being a servant of God."

In Acts 2 it speaks of the 'Man' Jesus, and in the New King James it calls Him a Servant:
22. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles, wonders and signs,which God did by Him in the midst of you, as you yourselves also know (Surah 3:49)
23. Him, being delivered by the determinite counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

37. Now when they heard this, they were touched in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the Apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized every one of you for the remission of sin, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Placid

[KnowledgeIslam]

Greetings, Placid.

I am sorry, but I am a little confused as to the message you are sending across. I don't really understand. So you do believe the Trinity is invalid.
This is what I understood: You believe that although Jesus was human, he was still divine because of the divine spirit inside of him. So basically, he is still 100% divine, and 100% human, or are these seperate? I don't understand what you mean by the "unity" and "manifest" and university. Please clarify, sorry for my confusion. If you could please make it clear what you believe about Jesus. (see, this is what I meant. Now you tell me that you don't believe in the trinity, instead something else which I have not heard of. Like I quoted, God is not the author of confusion. So why all the confusion surrounding your faith? I see no such confusion in Islam.)

Notice this verse in 1 John 5:
7. “For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.”

I believe that Muhammad would have known this NT verse, and was referring to it when he responded to some Christians (perhaps Trinitarians) in Surah 4:
171. O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God.

This is the truth of 1 John 5:7,
Jesus, the Messiah, was the Messenger of God, (the Father), --- And of His Word (Logos) which he conveyed into Mary (for the virgin birth), --- and a Spirit (the Holy Spirit) from Him (God). --- And don’t say “Three” --- God is only One God.

--- Do you see what I am saying? The “Three” are involved, as they are ‘manifested’ many places throughout the Scripture, but the “Three” are of God, --- and are in unity and in harmony.

The verse you have here from the Holy Qur'an has been a little misinterpreted. First of all, this is not the complete verse. Perhaps this translation will assist:
"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs."
(words in parentheses by the translator, not me.)

This is what you said, "This is the truth of 1 John 5:7,
Jesus, the Messiah, was the Messenger of God, (the Father), --- And of His Word (Logos) which he conveyed into Mary (for the virgin birth), --- and a Spirit (the Holy Spirit) from Him (God). --- And don’t say “Three” --- God is only One God."

First of all, God is not the Father. Here is a problem-the family of God. The Father, the Son. This is what the verse is saying! Jesus was a Messenger, not a son (as the verse continues on to say). The other misinterpretation is the spirit part. As you can see in the translation, "ruh" is mentioned. That means soul. It simply means he was a soul, a spirit, a "ruh" from Allah(like any other human has a soul) and does not in any way imply the Holy Spirit or divine presence. So in fact, the verse from the Qur'an is not like 1 John 5:7.
The second problem in this verse is that it is a false verse, and an insertion! If you don't believe me, just look at this video (skip to 16:57 to get to my point):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nlx9lLqJ8rU

Moving on.

So here is my understanding:
Jesus was human, but His indwelling Spirit was The Word (Logos) of God, therefore, of Divinity. --- Jesus had a human body and a Divine Spirit.

Here is the problem I see with this. This verse negates the doctrine of salvation. The people were saved from their sin because Jesus died on the cross (this is part of the faulty Pauline doctrine). If Jesus died, that means his human part died. Not the Divine indwelling spirit. This means that there was no sacrifice at all. It was just one innocent human dying for a bunch of criminals and sinners. Let me rephrase that. It was just one innocent human dying for the sake of billions of others. Does this make any sense? Please explain (you are good at explaining, a very good quality).
The second point on this is that does this mean Jesus's soul was actually divine? Because you see, all humans have a soul. Are you saying Jesus's soul is divine, or is the indwelling divine spirit seperate?


So the question remains, Jesus is human, as you believe. But is he also divine? What's going on? After you clarify, I'll get back to you on more points and arguments.
And, you seem to be a reader of the Qur'an. How come you still haven't taken Jesus to be simply a messenger of God?
Or, what is preventing you from accepting Islam?

And by the way, thanks for replying!

[placid]

HI knowledge,

You have given enough questions to last for awhile so I will start with one of the main ones:
The Three in heaven, as mentioned in Surah 4:

171. O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender. --- (Notice Surah 19:35 below)

The translation of Hilali Khan is filled with his opinion in (brackets).
Everything in brackets is added and not in the Arabic, so we have to be careful not to be misled
--- (This is a translation that carries the 20th century predjudice, so a good one to avoid.)

For instance, since you have used this:
--- "and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him"
So not only does he want to convey the thought of 'soul,' the same as each one of us have, but he adds "created by Him."

Of the other translaters, five say "a Spirit from Him," (two of them capitalize Spirit), and two say, "a Spirit proceeding from Him." --- so this is a Spirit that comes from God, thus the Holy Spirit of God.

Surah 19:17.And (Mary) had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.
19. He said: "Nay, I am only an apostle from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."

--- You see, this was not just another child born in the world, but a Child ordained of God.
Notice verse 17, "Then We sent unto her Our Spirit"

Surah 21:91. And she who was chaste, therefor We breathed into her (something) of Our Spirit and made her and her son a token for (all) peoples

Surah 66:12. And Mary, daughter of 'Imran, whose body was chaste, therefor We breathed therein something of Our Spirit. And she put faith in the words of her Lord and His scriptures, and was of the obedient.


Surah 19:30. He (Jesus) said: "I am indeed a servant of God: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
31."And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
33. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
36. Verily God is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.

--- It is not 'befitting' for God to have a son. In fact it is impossible because God has no form nor likeness in order to have a son in any likeness of Him, --- but He can say, "Be!" and He is.


If we look at Luke 1, it records the same angel Gabriel coming to Mary and saying:
30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be CALLED the Son of the Highest;
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

---If you noticed, I capitalized the word CALLED in two places.

If you put this all together and realized that Jesus was CALLED the Son of God.

As you said, the Scripture doesn't say that Jesus was God, nor did Jesus say He was God.

However, after Gabriel said that He would be CALLED the Son of God, He has been called the Son of God, --- He usually called Himself the Son of Man. --- And He always called God His heavenly Father.

This was the identification of 'The Family of God' in the NT. (This can be another subject later on.)


Placid

[Abu Hadi]

Hello Placid,

One simple question.

Do you believe that Jesus or The Holy Spirit have any power that is independant of God?
Yes or No.

[KnowledgeIslam]

Greetings, Placid.

I know you have the other questions to answer, so I'll just respond to the latest post.

Placid, you really want to make the Qur'an sound like it's talking about the Holy Spirit you have in your religion.

So, let's look at the Arabic of Surah An-Nisa', 4:171. Here is a transliteration.


Ya ahla alkitabi lataghloo fee deenikum wala taqooloo AAala Allahiilla alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesaibnu maryama rasoolu Allahi wakalimatuhu alqahaila maryama waroohun minhu faaminoo billahiwarusulihi wala taqooloo thalathatun intahookhayran lakum innama Allahu ilahun wahidunsubhanahu an yakoona lahu waladun lahu ma fee assamawatiwama fee al-ardi wakafa billahiwakeela.
(I highlighted "rooh")


Now, in Islam, there is no such thing as a Holy Spirit in the Christian sense. So we have two options: it is either the angel Gabriel, as you mentioned, or it refers to a soul. In Islam, we have no idea of any divine aspect to Jesus, whether it be spirit, body, or something else. Yes, he had powers given to him, yes he was born miraculously, but no divinity.



Sahih International
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Muhsin Khan
O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.

Pickthall
O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

Yusuf Ali
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

Shakir
O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

Dr. Ghali
O population of the Book, (Or: Family of the Book, i.e., Jews and Christians) do not go beyond the bounds in your religion and do not say concerning Allah (anything) except the Truth. Surely the Masih, Isa son of Maryam, (The Messiah, Jesus sonof Mary) was only the Messenger of Allah, and His Word that He cast forth to Maryam, and a Spirit from Him. So, believe in Allah and His Messengers, and do not say, "Three." Refrain; most charitable is it for you; surely Allah is only One God. All Extolment be to Him-that He should have a child. To Him (belongs) whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth; and Allah suffices for an Ever-Trusted Trustee.

I took these from onliine (quran.com). From these, only one translation has it capitalized? And two mention soul?
Jesus is like every other human. I believe this is what the verse is saying. It says his spirit came from Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì like everybody's did. Only, Jesus was also a prophet. Which means he was granted miracles and he was protected from sin. I think the verse is stressing he is not divine, and neither is his soul.

Why are we talking about the Qur'an anyway? We are talking about your beliefs, not mine. We can talk about my beliefs and where they come from in the future. We all know the Qur'an corrects the Bible, since it is a corrupted scripture. It shines light into the darkness and confusion of the Bible.

Of the other translaters, five say "a Spirit from Him," (two of them capitalize Spirit), and two say, "a Spirit proceeding from Him." --- so this is a Spirit that comes from God, thus the Holy Spirit of God.

Surah 19:17.And (Mary) had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.
19. He said: "Nay, I am only an apostle from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."

--- You see, this was not just another child born in the world, but a Child ordained of God.
Notice verse 17, "Then We sent unto her Our Spirit"

Surah 21:91. And she who was chaste, therefor We breathed into her (something) of Our Spirit and made her and her son a token for (all) peoples

Surah 66:12. And Mary, daughter of 'Imran, whose body was chaste, therefor We breathed therein something of Our Spirit. And she put faith in the words of her Lord and His scriptures, and was of the obedient.

Once again, all these supposed "Holy Spirit"s are in fact just the angel Gabriel (Jibreel). The "Our Spirit" parts refer to the angel Gabriel. The Holy Spirit, as such in Christian faith, does not exist in our religion.

--- It is not 'befitting' for God to have a son. In fact it is impossible because God has no form nor likeness in order to have a son in any likeness of Him, --- but He can say, "Be!" and He is.

Nice to see you are coming closer to the truth and realizing Jesus is not the son of God (astaghfirullah)!

And the "called" references you make are not that effective because in fact, the Bible, especially the Gospel of John, makes claims about the Son of God. Look at these: John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9; John 20:31. It looks like John's job was to make Jesus the Son of God. In fact, John 3:16 goes extreme and uses the word "begotten". However, in the newer translations, such as the RSV and the NIV, this word has been removed from basically everywhere in the entire Bible. No doubt, you can see how changed and corrupted the Bible really is.
Anyway, like you said, that can be another topic.


Please answer ALL of the questions I have asked, as I have answered ALL of your questions/arguments that I have understood. So please answer all of the arguments put forth so we don't leave any behind and get mixed up. And please answer the moderator's question above- he has asked exactly what I need to know, and he has figured out how to phrase it into a question. Thank you, Abu Hadi.

Also answer these questions, please:
Are you enjoying this discussion?
Am I being challenging for you to debate with?
Have you ever seen any of these arguments put forth?

Also, try to guess my age or age range, judging from my arguments and my writings.

Thanks a lot!

Can't wait for christianlady to get on here!

Thanks again for replying.

[KnowledgeIslam]

Placid, where are you? You were online just recently after a long period of being offline. I noticed your replies on other threads. I'm also waiting for a reply.

I sincerely hope you have not given up so soon in the face of my arguments.

Christianlady was online three days ago, I think. She hasn't even replied at all.

Reply as soon as you can!
Thank you

[placid]

Hi Abu,
(Sorry, I have been away with no computer for a while.)

Quote from Post 5:
Do you believe that Jesus or The Holy Spirit have any power that is independant of God?
Yes or No.

Response: --- Because of the many questions I will have to use some Scripture verses later, to answer Knowledge, --- but in answer to your question,

Yes, --- They each have the Power of God, as demonstrated in Scripture, but,

No, --- They do not work independently of God. But rather, They are Manifestations and Servants of God.

[placid]

Hi Knowledge,

No I haven’t abandoned you. However, on part of our holiday I had no access to the internet. --- (Of course that is how to take a holiday.)

I see you have many questions which I will answer as I can, but there are a few things that you mention that cause confusion.
For instance, your suggestion that John 3:16 was ‘corrupted’ by replacing the word ‘begotten’ in the King James, to “Only Son *” in the NIV.
The asterisk leads to a footnote that says, ‘Or His only Begotten Son.’
--- In the Amplified Bible, which expresses the deeper meaning in the Greek says it this way:
16. For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

The word ‘unique’ means ‘one of a kind.’
While there are different places in the OT where the Word (Logos) appeared as a Personage from God, --- this is the only time that the Word indwelt a human Body. --- Notice John 1:
14. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John (the Baptist) bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

--- The fact that you don’t understand this from just reading it is no surprise, because you have been taught from Muslim sources that the NT is corrupted and the Gospels were written by unknown authors, --- but the Apostle John, who wrote this Gospel said in 14, “And dwelt among US, and WE beheld His glory,” --- so there is no doubt that John and other disciples were there with Jesus.
In 15, John the Baptist testified of Him
In 16 John again says, “And of His fullness have We have all received.
In 17. (The transition from the OT to the NT). --- For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
In 18 it again mentions the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father.

In John 3:16 in the NIV where it says “only Son” --- this is not accurate without the footnote because we agree that GOD COULDN”T HAVE A SON, becoause HE is not of this world, and His very approaching Presence would burn us to a crisp.

However, others in the OT were CALLED sons of God, so Jesus would not have been the ‘only Son’ without some clarification, --- that Jesus was CALLED a Son, and that He was a Special Unique, One of a kind, Only begotten Son. The only Son born of a virgin by God saying “Be!” – and He was --- Surah 19:35.
(Take your choice how you define Him.)

Let’s see how the NIV translates the other places it uses the words – ‘only begotten.’
In 14 it says, ‘One and Only *, --- again with a footnote saying, ‘Or the Only Begotten.
In 18, the NIV says: No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only *, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.
The footnote again says, ‘Only, or only Begotten Son’
--- Note: --- How do you like this --- “No one has ever seen God but God the One and Only “ --- referring to Jesus. --- (This is what helped the trinity doctrine)

But if we look again in the New King James, it says this:
18. No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son*, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
--- And the footnote says, ‘Or God,’ --- so that would read, --- ‘Only Begotten God.’

Now that you will be really confused, I will give the verse from the Amplified in order to get the fuller Greek interpretation:
18. No man has ever seen God at any time; the only [a]unique Son, or [b]the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known].


This is getting quite ong, but this will give you enough for now, I will add more tomorrow.


Placid

[placid]

(To continue)

There seems to be a pattern developing, and in the Amplified (Greek) translation
It says:
No man has ever seen God at any time; the only Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã unique Son, or ( the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known].

--- I will come back to this later, but let’s check some other versions, in addition to the three we’ve seen already.

The Greek Interlinear (literal) translation:
God no man has seen never; (the) only begotten God the (One) being in the bosom of the Father, that One declared Him.

New American Standard Version
The only begotten God* who is in the bosom of the Father.
--- The footnote says, “Some later manuscripts read - Son.”

Revised Standard Version:
The only Son* who is in the bosom of the Father.
--- The footnote says, “Other ancient authorities read – God.”

New English Bible:
God’s only Son, He who is the closest to God’s heart.

Moffatt Translation:
Nobody has ever seen God. But God has been unfolded by the Divine One, the only Son who lies upon the Father’s breast.

Phillips Translation:
No one has ever seen God at any time, yet the Divine and Only Son who lives in the closest intimacy with the Father, has made Him known.

Good News for Modern Man:
No One has ever seen God, the only One who is the same as God and is at the Father’s side, He has made Him known.

Also --- The New World Translation (Jehovah’s Witness Bible)
No man has seen God at any time. The only begotten god* who is in the bosom (position) of the Father
The footnote, or cross reference, gives verses like John 8:32 which speak of Jesus.

I have all of these versions in my library plus a few more, which say the sameas these, and I will add a French one;
La Sainte Bible:
Personne n’a jamais vu Dieu; Dieu la Fils unique* qui est dans la sien du Pere, est celui qui l’a fait connaitre.
--- Anyone has never seen God; God the unique Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, is the One which he has made known (or, has made Him known.)
The footnote says, “La Fils unique, ou la Fils unique de Dieu.”
--- The unique Son, or the unique Son of God.

With all of these verses it almost makes us believe that there is a verse that says,
“Jesus is God.” --- Those who wrote the trinity doctrine may have seen this but they still got the concept wrong, --- because the Scriptures don’t support a trinity doctrine, nor do they say that Jesus was God.
However, the trinity doctrine became a Church tradition and it has been taught in most denominations.
What one believes about the Three in heaven (which is a mystery beyond our understanding) does not affect God’s plan of Salvation. --- It still comes down to our understanding of who Jesus was, and why He was sent.

One thing to note is that the Father-Son relationship began in the NT, and whether you are comfortable with it or not, --- God is CALLED the Father and Jesus is CALLED the Son. --- And it was the angel Gabriel that said Jesus would be CALLED the Son of God.

However, to understand ‘Divinity’ we have to understand the relationship between the Word (Logos) and Jesus.
Here are some good verses in Surah 3:
45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;
46. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

Again, this will be enough for now.


Placid

[KnowledgeIslam]

This is getting WAY too confusing. Excuse me for my confusion-I am trying hard to comprehend and understand what exactly you are saying. I have read your quotes and posts, but I want to step away a bit. What I want to know is; what do you believe? What aspect of Christianity do you retain in your beliefs? Obviously not the trinity. That is out of the way. But what view do you hold on Jesus? One time you say he holds independent power, then you say he also doesn't.
You say Jesus is 100% God and 100% Human. But in my original post, I told you why this does not work (or did I?).
Is Jesus divine or not? If he is not, then let the matter rest. If he is, then in what way? Once again, I do not see any of this type confusion in Islam, and the problem is that this confusion exists in your core beliefs, not the outskirts.
Without using any quotations, I just want to hear from you, in a logical and detailed manner, what your belief is. Becuase if I don't have that clear, I don't know where you are coming from, and I can't establish a correct argument.
I apologize for my lack of understanding.
One thing we need to do is take a step back. So, I would appreciate it if you moved on to the other questions I asked. We will revisit this when I have figured out what you believe about Jesus and the "Godhead".
Don't think I am backing out.
I am just having a difficult time ascertaining what you think Jesus is.
Thank you.

I hope you enjoyed your holiday and I like the way you take holidays. "Of course that is how to take a holiday"

[CLynn]

I haven't taken time to read all since I have neither time nor energy for debate, but would like to add some simple input on just two things that KnowledgeIslam brought up.

"Do you believe that Jesus or The Holy Spirit have any power that is independant of God?"

My simple answer to that is No.

As far as confusion about the trinity or the Godhead,
It is only confusing to those who do not believe,

those who have not read all the scriptures and who have not gained understanding from the Word that is God.

Those are my short, simple answers.

[KnowledgeIslam]

I haven't taken time to read all since I have neither time nor energy for debate, but would like to add some simple input on just two things that KnowledgeIslam brought up.

"Do you believe that Jesus or The Holy Spirit have any power that is independant of God?"

My simple answer to that is No.

As far as confusion about the trinity or the Godhead,
It is only confusing to those who do not believe,

those who have not read all the scriptures and who have not gained understanding from the Word that is God.

Those are my short, simple answers.

Thanks for your input!
In fact, "According to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there are approximately 41,000 Christian denominations and organizations in the world. This statistic takes into consideration cultural distinctions of denominations in different countries, so there is overlapping of many denominations." - http://christianity....istiantoday.htm

There might be divisions in Islam, but certainly not that many. And our divisions are usually about less core subjects such as how to pray namaz, successor of the Prophet , so on and so forth. At least we all believe in Allah (although there are small minorities that have started believing others are Allah, such as certain humans). The thing that is going on in Christianity is that the people don't really know who God is. Some say he is three in one. Some say he is one in three. Some say he is both. Some say he is one and only. Trinitarians say this, while Unitarians say that. Unificationist are completely off. And these are not just small minorities.

You can't say that the trinity is a clear topic. Even learned, proffessional scholars/preachers struggle to explain this idealogy. A friend of mine was stumbling over himself to try and explain it. So in fact it is confusing.
Even if it is not confusing, it cannot be more clear then Islamic idealogy. Of tawheed and oneness of God. A five-year-old could understand. However, if you told the same child about the trinity-it might be a different case.
So if I were to reword it, I would say that Christian theology is less clear and more blurry then Islamic theology, Not just to non-Christians, as well.


And, if you could please, tell me who you think Jesus is. Divine, or no? Is he 100% human and also 100% God? What is going on? Please explain these in a detailed and clear manner.

Thank you.

[Son of Placid]

Jesus was a man, He lived, He died. He proved His humanity many times. The spirit God breathed into Mary was Lagos, The Word of the Lord, God's first created being. Only one who was from the beginning would know the secrets of life well enough to create a bird from clay, to speak as an infant, to make the bold statement, "Before Abraham was, I am" If you do an OT search on "The word of the Lord" you will find many references, but few that look like an open book ready to be read. Most are a form of action, or a command. A book cannot command you to open it. Of course there's more.

[placid]

Hi Knowledge:

Quote from Post 11:
One thing we need to do is take a step back. So, I would appreciate it if you moved on to the other questions I asked. We will revisit this when I have figured out what you believe about Jesus and the "Godhead".
Don't think I am backing out.
I am just having a difficult time ascertaining what you think Jesus is.

Response: --- Yes, I can understand that you are having difficulty understanding this. --- However, this is your topic about the Divine nature of Christ, so it is natural to start from the point where John said “The Word became flesh.”

But let’s step back to other questions for a bit, as you suggest, but keep the above in mind, though it seems confusing to start with.

--- (The Post I started "How do you know?" is for personal testimony, but to check what I believe about Jesus, you can read Christianity 101.)

One point I want to make is that since the NT was written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit through faithful believers (though you don’t yet acknowledge the Holy Spirit) --- it is the record of God sending Jesus to earth to ‘redeem’ the people who had gone astray.

Second point is that the messages given by the angel Gabriel in the Quran were inspired to and through Muhammad. --- So, only Quran 1, has the message of God for those who receive it.
So, for fruitful discussion, it is necessary to stick to what is written in the Bible, and in what I call Quran 1, --- and set aside for now, all that you have learned from hadiths and hearsay --- (which I have called Quran 2, because Muslims seem to rely on it more than on 1).
--- And please set aside also the biased translation by Hilali Khan.

So I will answer the question from Post 6 about the Holy Spirit.

The English translations of the Quran are harmonious except for their choice of words, --- but not the newest one by Hilali Khan, which identifies Christians with Polytheists and idolaters, because of his misinterpretation of ‘the Three in heaven.’

--- To make a simple point about Hilali Khan, who you quoted from Surah 4:
171. O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is AllSufficient as a Disposer of affairs.

Whatever is in brackets is not in the Arabic, --- as these bracketed words , “The Messiah Jesus was (no more than) a Messenger of God.”
The fact that He was the Messiah says that He was more than just a Messenger, but what Muhammad was pointing out was that Jesus was not one of the Three that he referred to.
When he said, “Don’t say three” he was speaking of the Three that were from the beginning with God, --- who were God the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.
--- And Jesus was the Messiah and Messenger of them, but was not one of them.

John (the same John that wrote the Gospel) said in 1 John 5:
7. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Our verse from the Quran says:
“Jesus was a Messenger of God, His Word, and a Sprit from Him. --- But don’t say ‘Three,’ God is only One God.”
--- (Is this not what Muhammad (or Gabriel) was verifying?)

To go back to Hilali Khan,
To say Jesus was ‘no more than’ makes it sound like He was just a human messenger, but then he says --- “and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him.”

Hilali Khan does two things here to try and present Jesus as just a man by saying, ‘a spirit (Ruh) created by Him.’
The first is Ruh, which I understand means ‘soul,’ which we each have.
The second is ‘created’ by Him. --- While (Ruh) was in brackets indicating that he inserted it, --- the words ‘created by’ are not in brackets, nor are they in any of the other 9 reliable translations on Quranbrowser.com, but they consistently say, a ‘spirit from Him,’ or a spirit proceeding from Him. (Some capitalize Spirit, meaning, the Holy Spirit.)

So Hilali Khan inserted the words ‘created by’ (which were obviously not in the Arabic or the other translators would have used them), without putting them in brackets, --- and this can give the understanding that God ‘created’ the soul of Jesus the same as all human souls are created, --- so, he is conveying that Jesus was just a human and (no more than) a Messenger of God.

--- This is perhaps the consensus of what Muslims want to believe about Jesus, and that is the way Hilali Khan has written his translation.
When you study or quote from the Quran please check some other translations.

I will add some verses later about the Holy Spirit in the Quran. This is already long enough.


Placid

[CLynn]

Thanks for your input!
Please explain these in a detailed and clear manner.

Thank you.

Your welcome, and I will do my best.

My reply, which may be different than others. We all come to belief in our own way as guided by God, if we are guided rightly. I have done the academic studies, but here I speak only from my heart of the things I have come to know through both study and communion with God. I do not wish to go over, again and again, all the academic points. This is from the heart of all those studies.

Here is what I always say...
Should God, Creator of all, be simple? Should we expect Him to be so simple that a human mind can understand?
Like the scriptures say; Do you have the mind of God to know all?
God is a mystery, as would be expected. We should not expect God to be simple. If we make Him simple we have made Him out of our own mind and what our mind can understand. Jesus was a mystery, as God is a mystery. Jesus could not explain all, and He was clear to tell us this.

7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.

Now as far as who I think Jesus to be...
He is the human embodiment of God. God created a human form, a Son, in which to come to earth to be with His creation.
Do you recall Moses saying that no one can look upon the face of God and live?
God came to us in a form we could interact with. He called this form His Son as He is part of Himself... is the containment of God on earth... a human form.
This, for me, is not difficult to understand or grasp the concept of. We believe what we have been told by Jesus Himself.

Is this a simple concept? No. But as I say, should we expect anything about God to be simple? It is a mystery. We have only the mind of a human. It is here that we have to have faith to believe what has been revealed.
Was this not the downfall of Adam and Eve... wanting to understand beyond what God gave them to understand? God is not simple and we are not to understand all until, one day when perhaps, we may be with Him. Now we see "as in a glass darkly, but then all will be revealed."

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
_____________________________________

This sums it all up:

he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name[in the name of Jesus], he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Salaam,
CLynn

[placid]

Hi Knowledge:

Some verses on the Holy Spirit in the Quran:
2:87, We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride? - Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!

2:253. Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. If God had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting.

3:48. "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
49. "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe; --- (by the Holy Spirit, see 5:110).
50. "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51. 'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
--- (My comment, --- can there be a straighter Way?)

4:171 (which we have been discussing), “Jesus, --- an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him:

5:110. Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

16:102. Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims (those who are surrendered)..

17:85. They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"

21:91. And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples.

26:192. Verily this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds:
193. With it came down the Spirit of Faith and Truth -
194. To thy heart and mind, that thou mayest admonish.
195. In the perspicuous Arabic tongue.

32:9. But He fashioned him (Adam) in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His Spirit.

40:15. Raised high above ranks (or degrees), (He is) the Lord of the Throne (of Authority): by His Command doth He send the Spirit (of inspiration) to any of His servants he pleases, that it may warn (men) of the Day of Mutual Meeting, -

42:52. And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it (the revelation) a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path,

58:22. Thou wilt not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day, loving those who resist God and His Apostle, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a Spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). God will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of God. Truly it is the Party of God that will achieve Felicity (success).
--- (My comment, ---this is the Christian experience.)

66:12. And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our Spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).


Placid

[CLynn]

Placid shared several surah's.

I have questions about two of them;

2:87, We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; ... - Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!
Who is this meant to refer to?

2:253. Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour);

Who is this surah meant to refer to... the one to whom God spoke?

Thanks.

[Qa'im]

Placid shared several surah's.

I have questions about two of them;

2:87, We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; ... - Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!
Who is this meant to refer to?

2:253. Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour);

Who is this surah meant to refer to... the one to whom God spoke?

Thanks.

This is referring to Moses .

Here is the cross reference:

And when Moses came to Our appointed tryst and his Lord had spoken unto him, he said: My Lord! Show me (Thy self), that I may gaze upon Thee. He said: Thou wilt not see Me, but gaze upon the mountain! If it stand still in its place, then thou wilt see Me. And when his Lord revealed (His) glory to the mountain He sent it crashing down. And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers. (7:143)

And here too:

And as [We inspired other] apostles whom We have mentioned to thee ere this, as well as apostles whom We have not mentioned to thee; and as God spoke His word unto Moses (4:164)

In Islamic custom, Moses was spoken to directly by God without an intermediary, while others received their revelations through other mediums.

[CLynn]

@Qa'im

Thanks for your reply.
What about surah 2:87? Who were the apostles that were called imposters and by whom? And who are the ones who were slain?

[Qa'im]

@Qa'im

Thanks for your reply.
What about surah 2:87? Who were the apostles that were called imposters and by whom? And who are the ones who were slain?

We believe that John the Baptist was rejected and killed by his people; and it is true, he was killed by Herod and most of the Jews did not accept his prophethood. Zakariyya was also said to have been killed, and this is suggested in Matthew 23:35. The Qur'an attests that many prophets were killed and Jesus says the same. Talmudic tradition says that Isaiah was also killed.

As for prophets that were rejected, almost all prophets faced some sort of rejection. Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad are just a few examples.

[placid]

Hi Clynn,

Concerning this verse:
2:87. We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride? - Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!

The important part of the verse is not the names of those they called imposters because unbelievers and disbelievers often reject religious people as imposters, and they wait for them to do something dishonorable so they can accuse them.

As Qa’im said, “Almost all prophets faced some sort of rejection. Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad,” --- and in every generation the followers of Faith have been persecuted and some have been killed.

--- However, the simple rule is that when you have questions about a verse, you read the context to see who it was written to and who it was written about. --- Also, what is the history that you can draw on to help your understanding.

Consider these verses before and after:
2:81. Nay, those who seek gain in evil, and are girt round by their sins, - they are companions of the Fire: Therein shall they abide (For ever).
82. But those who have faith and work righteousness, they are companions of the Garden: Therein shall they abide (For ever).
83. And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): Worship none but God; treat with kindness your parents and kindred, and orphans and those in need; speak fair to the people; be steadfast in prayer; and practice regular charity. Then did ye turn back, except a few among you, and ye backslide (even now).
84. And remember We took your covenant (to this effect): Shed no blood amongst you, nor turn out your own people from your homes: and this ye solemnly ratified, and to this ye can bear witness.
85. After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? --- but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? - and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For God is not unmindful of what ye do.
86. These are the people who buy the life of this world at the price of the Hereafter: their penalty shall not be lightened nor shall they be helped.
87. We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride? - Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!
88. They say, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve God's Word: we need no more)." Nay, God's curse is on them for their blasphemy: Little is it they believe.
89. And when there comes to them a Book from God, confirming what is with them, - although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith, - when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognised, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of God is on those without Faith.
90. Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls, in that they deny (the revelation) which God has sent down, in insolent envy that God of His Grace should send it to any of His servants He pleases: Thus have they drawn on themselves Wrath upon Wrath. And humiliating is the punishment of those who reject Faith.
91. When it is said to them, "Believe in what God Hath sent down," they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us:" yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: "Why then have ye slain the prophets of God in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?"

Note: --- This would have been a reprimand to the Jews in Al-Madinah.
81-82 refer to Jews, Muslims, and Christians alike, does it not?
83 Notice it says, ‘We (God) took a covenant,’ which would refer to the time of Moses, I believe, when the twelve tribes were united and obedient to God.
84. ‘We (God) took your covenant.’ No doubt a later covenant perhaps after the tribes were divided and warring one against another
85. --- Their sinful actions within the tribes and rejection of part of the Scriptures
86. --- The Jews who rejected God’s inheritance, --- for the life of the world.
87. The Book was given to Moses, and the new revelation came through Jesus, but the Jews ‘puffed up with pride,’ reject all but part of the OT, their Jewish law, --- but just the portions they want to observe.
88. --- Their false belief that they are protected by God because they first received God’s Word. --- A comparable verse is 4:
155. (They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of God; that they slew the Apostle in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve God's Word; We need no more)"; - Nay, God hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe; -

2:89. And when there comes another Book from God, the Quran, which confirms their own Scriptures, which they have with them, --- ‘that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it.’
90. They have brought God’s wrath upon themselves. They believe that new revelations should have been given to them, the Jews, --- so though ‘insolent envy’ they reject it.

--- An interesting note is that the Jews first invited Muhammad to come to Al-Madinah, believing that he was the Prophet to the Arabs, which he was, but soon after he began teaching what God was revealing to and through him, they began to reject him.
91. When it is said, “Believe in what is sent down,” --- they say, “We believe in what was sent down to us.” --- Even though the new message confirms the OT that they have with them.
--- Then the big question is asked, --- (if they believed their own Scriptures), --- "Why then have ye slain the prophets of God in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?"

So Clynn, there is your answer in verse 90. --- The Jews persecuted and killed their own prophets throughout their history.

(You don’t have to believe this part of the Surah as I do, but the understanding, to me, is in the context. None of the comments are ‘copy and paste,’ but all mine.
I do this kind of study for my own benefit in both the Bible and Quran.)
Sorry, long again.


Placid

[CLynn]

We believe that John the Baptist was rejected and killed by his people; and it is true, he was killed by Herod and most of the Jews did not accept his prophethood. Zakariyya was also said to have been killed, and this is suggested in Matthew 23:35. The Qur'an attests that many prophets were killed and Jesus says the same. Talmudic tradition says that Isaiah was also killed.

As for prophets that were rejected, almost all prophets faced some sort of rejection. Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad are just a few examples.

Thank you Qa'im.
Does the Qur'an itself say anything about John the Baptist, Zechariah, or Isaiah?

I have also been interested to know what Islam has to say about John the Baptist.

Edited by CLynn, 31 August 2012 - 09:52 PM.

[Qa'im]

You can read Chapter 19 of the Qur'an. The name of the chapter is "Maryam" (Mary) and it talks about Zechariah, John the Baptist, Mary, and Jesus: http://quran.com/19

John the Baptist in Islam is referred to by the name Yahya . He is a prophet of God - the son of a prophet and the cousin of the Messiah. Yahya was born miraculously by the will of God, and inherited the prophethood of his father. He was consecrated; did not marry, and was not a burden upon his parents. He was a martyr, and according to our hadiths, the skies mourned for him upon his death. In the New Testament, John the Baptist is described as the second coming of Elijah but this concept is not mentioned in Islamic literature.

Zechariah is referred to as Zakariyya , and he was a prophet in charge of Temple services in Jerusalem. He was the guardian of Maryam. He prayed for a successor to inherit from him, and God granted his prayer and announced the birth of Yahya via revelation, and we believe he was unable to speak for three nights. He may have also been a martyr.

Isaiah is not mentioned in Islamic literature. There is one person in the Qur'an who is mentioned by name and not described named Dhul Kifl. Some speculate that Dhul Kifl may be Isaiah, Ezekiel, or (more recently) even Buddha.

[Son of Placid]

Isaiah is, or is not mentioned in whichever religion decides his value is or is not in alignment with their understanding.
Proof that God is a personal God to be worshipped, praised, and followed.


Proverbs 3:6
In all thy ways acknowledge Him and He will direct thy path.