16 replies to this topic

[Ali.20]

AlSalam Alaykum:

I need to know:

1. Why do we mourn Ahlul-Bayt ?
2. Why do we kiss their shrines?
3. If Imam Ali is so important, why wasn't he mentioned in the Quran, and the Wilayat, too?

Thanks.

[Kismet110]

1. We don't mourn their passing per se as they are shaheed, rather the tragedies and calamities that Muslims perpetrated on them.

2. Because visitation and kissing/touching of the shrine of a Masoom is considered beneficial and of course is a sign of love and devotion to them.

3. Both Imam Ali and wiliayah are mentioned in Noble Quran, in numerous places. If you're expecting it to be spelled out then you will be disappointed but it's there.

ALI

[Haydar Karrar]

Easy, Why Don't You Mourn Ahlul Bayt?

[Dawud1UK]

Wsalam,

3. 26:00 minutes in onwards (), ignore the title although there's mention of Imam Ali in the Quran (Surah 5 Verse 55) according to an incident that occurred i.e. in short Imam Ali giving away his ring to a poor man while in ruku.

[Maryammm]

If someone that you loved and respected dearly passed away, particularly if it was in a very brutal way and at the hands of a very disgusting evil person or people, wouldn't you mourn and remember that person? wouldn't you stand up and speak out against the perpetrators of such a crime? Well what about the people that Allah(swt) loves the most? the people that he sent to mankind, people who are sinless and innocent and only want the best for humanity? what about those that oppressed and killed them? are they not the epitomy of evil and disgrace? do we not want to show that we are against them and that we do not want anything from their characters? Are their not oppressors around in these times just like them? people we should at least oppose in our hearts? then with our words, then with our hands? Doesn't the rememberance and sadness at the loss of the most beloved of people, and the hatred of their enemies help us to understand and consider some of the oppression that goes on today? Does it not motivate us to say or do whatever we can to overcome such oppression? The events of various battles and oppressions that took place against the Ahlul bayt(as), especially Karbala, epitomise the fight that goes on in all our hearts, the fight between good and evil, the fight between right and wrong, and so it symbolses the fight of humanity against the shaitan and all evil inclinations of the soul. It goes right to the heart of faith, and is not something new, it has been there since the very beginning.

Salams and duas inshallah

[coldcow]

1. Claiming it's wajib to mourn them is innovation, in my opinion.
2. I don't know anything about kissing shrines, but when I see people praying at shrines, that irks me because it feels like it borders on shirk.  And that which resembles haraam, is haraam itself.  So what we have to think about when we do things, is what are onlookers thinking when they see us do it.  Does it look like we're worshipping the shrine?  What if we fail to explain our actions to our children, and they think it's ok to pray to a shrine?  And their children continue the practice, and so on and so forth until we start accepting dead humans as somehow able to hear us and grant us our prayers.
3. I don't know.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

coldcow, on 31 July 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

1. Claiming it's wajib to mourn them is innovation, in my opinion.
2. I don't know anything about kissing shrines, but when I see people praying at shrines, that irks me because it feels like it borders on shirk.  And that which resembles haraam, is haraam itself.  So what we have to think about when we do things, is what are onlookers thinking when they see us do it.  Does it look like we're worshipping the shrine?  What if we fail to explain our actions to our children, and they think it's ok to pray to a shrine?  And their children continue the practice, and so on and so forth until we start accepting dead humans as somehow able to hear us and grant us our prayers.
3. I don't know.

Yes its wajib,remember that this nation is a promised one to mourn over Hussain(as) as predicted by Prophet(saww) to His daughter(as).
2.How can kissing of Shrine a shirk,when rubbing of Yousaf(as)'s Shirt to the eyes of His father was not? and if that shirt can bring light to eyes of Yaqoob(as),then most definitely these Shrines are far superior than that Shirt.
Its not child's play to call anything haraam,which is mustahab,and visiting and honoring Shrines is one of the most well rewarded act.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra, 31 July 2012 - 01:06 PM.

[Maryammm]

coldcow, on 31 July 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

1. Claiming it's wajib to mourn them is innovation, in my opinion.
2. I don't know anything about kissing shrines, but when I see people praying at shrines, that irks me because it feels like it borders on shirk.  And that which resembles haraam, is haraam itself.  So what we have to think about when we do things, is what are onlookers thinking when they see us do it.  Does it look like we're worshipping the shrine?  What if we fail to explain our actions to our children, and they think it's ok to pray to a shrine?  And their children continue the practice, and so on and so forth until we start accepting dead humans as somehow able to hear us and grant us our prayers.
3. I don't know.

Salam, kissing of shrines is showing affection and love towards the rope of AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, affection towards one who managed to achieve a lot of closness to AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, purely for the love of AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, when you love someone, you wish to be close to those whom they are close to. I am sure that when these ma'soom people were alive, their followers would show affection in much the same way, we are now unable to do that because they are either passed away or in occultation. Yes to some extent we have to worry about what the non shia onlooker will think, but at the same time we have to adhere to our beliefs and not be embarrassed to express them in halal ways, and kissing and touching shrines with love for the personality buried there is not haram if done with the intention that this person is a blessed servant of Allah(swt) and not Allah(swt) himself, and that we wish to use this person's close relationship with Allah(swt) as a means to reach our ultimate goal of Allah(swt) ie tawassul. Inevitably, different madhabs have different views on tawhid, one man's idea of tawhid, is another man's shirk, so we are never going to please anyone if we pander to other people's ignorance of our beliefs as shi'ah. What we should do instead, is be knowlegable about these things, for the sake of AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, and do our best to show good akhlaq and be able to answer these questions in an intelligent and competent manner when they come up.

Salams and duas

[coldcow]

Kaniz e Zahra, on 31 July 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Yes its wajib,remember that this nation is a promised one to mourn over Hussain(as) as predicted by Prophet(saww) to His daughter(as).
2.How can kissing of Shrine a shirk,when rubbing of Yousaf(as)'s Shirt to the eyes of His father was not? and if that shirt can bring light to eyes of Yaqoob(as),then most definitely these Shrines are far superior than that Shirt.
Its not child's play to call anything haraam,which is mustahab,and visiting and honoring Shrines is one of the most well rewarded act.

What about running to touch Alams, pieces of metal that represent dead humans?  And then touching your children to them, as if touching them will somehow do something.  What's the difference between that and what Christians do when they kiss a cross around their neck after praying?  At least Isa is still alive and will return one day.  Does it not amount to idol worship/shirk?  

Again, my point is not so much what non-Shia see when they see shias doing these things, it is what our children see.  They can't see your intentions might just be to show love for the family of the prophet, they may simply see someone worshipping a stone building housing a dead body.  And in their best of intentions, they proceed to emulate those actions, and before you know it you have people that think it's ok to pray towards shrines.

Also, I never understood the concept of trying to piggyback on someone else's closeness to God in order to get close yourself.  Why not just pray directly to God instead of hoping someone else will put in the good word for you.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

coldcow, on 31 July 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

What about running to touch Alams, pieces of metal that represent dead humans?  And then touching your children to them, as if touching them will somehow do something.  What's the difference between that and what Christians do when they kiss a cross around their neck after praying?  At least Isa is still alive and will return one day.  Does it not amount to idol worship/shirk?  

Again, my point is not so much what non-Shia see when they see shias doing these things, it is what our children see.  They can't see your intentions might just be to show love for the family of the prophet, they may simply see someone worshipping a stone building housing a dead body.  And in their best of intentions, they proceed to emulate those actions, and before you know it you have people that think it's ok to pray towards shrines.

Also, I never understood the concept of trying to piggyback on someone else's closeness to God in order to get close yourself.  Why not just pray directly to God instead of hoping someone else will put in the good word for you.

What about the excitement felt by companions to get this Alam on the day of khyber? Were they rushing for piece of metal,its not mere piece of metal,its a Standard of Islam.Abbas(as) let His Hands cut but did n't let it fall,it was not a mere metal,if one sees it with eyes of Maarifa.Your logic is same as Hindus say Muslims Worship one stone building.so what if we worship idols.
As for housing dead,there are two graves beside Ka'aba as well,so you should leave praying too.

Shrine of Imam Hussain(as) is same,whose one pilgrimage is equated to 70 Hajj.But for you it merely houses dead.Ka'aba inspite of being place of worship became birth place of Ali(as),He could be born at home but Allah has shown without His Wilaya ,your prayers will not be accepted.If you can reach Allah directly,then why believe in Sha'fat on the day of judgement,you'll present your case on your own.When you think you are close enough.

When Islam reached you through means,you'll reach Allah through means as well,otherwise will never be able to.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra, 31 July 2012 - 03:40 PM.

[coldcow]

Kaniz e Zahra, on 31 July 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

Shrine of Imam Hussain(as) is same,whose one pilgrimage is equated to 70 Hajj

Says who?  Do you not see what is wrong with saying something like that?  You're putting greater importance on visiting a shrine than going for actual Hajj.  

Once my father was at a majlis during Muharram and asked someone if they were going to stop the majlis for Magrib.  The man said that it's ok, the majlis can take the place of the salaat, or there's more sawab the majlis, or something like that.  And they ended up keeping the majlis going till salaat was qada.

What kind of nonsense is that?

[Kaniz e Zahra]

coldcow, on 31 July 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

Says who?  Do you not see what is wrong with saying something like that?  You're putting greater importance on visiting a shrine than going for actual Hajj.  

Once my father was at a majlis during Muharram and asked someone if they were going to stop the majlis for Magrib.  The man said that it's ok, the majlis can take the place of the salaat, or there's more sawab the majlis, or something like that.  And they ended up keeping the majlis going till salaat was qada.

What kind of nonsense is that?

Who said Ziaraat can take place of actual Hajj?Who said its more important? Its Allah's wills wherever He wish He confers more rewards. Even looking at parents's face with love gives a Sawaab of Hajj,that is a Hadees.So are parents more important than Ka'aba? Paradise is under mother's feet,so is it nothing?

What kind of non sense is that to make baseless conjectures.One day you will ask who said Ka'aba is delivery place of Ali(as)? Thanks to Allah that the gap in wall is never fulfilled,otherwise who could assure what you people were about to make of it.

Ask any Alim,this is a Hadees e Rasool(saww),so if you have problem with it being equal of 70 Hajj,then ask the Prophet(saww),not us.

[coldcow]

Kaniz e Zahra, on 31 July 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

Ask any Alim,this is a Hadees e Rasool(saww),so if you have problem with it being equal of 70 Hajj,then ask the Prophet(saww),not us.

The Prophet said that visiting the shrine of his grandson would be worth 70 Hajjes?  Please provide the hadeeth and who narrated it and when.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

coldcow, on 31 July 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

The Prophet said that visiting the shrine of his grandson would be worth 70 Hajjes?  Please provide the hadeeth and who narrated it and when.

Check this for instance


Imam Mohammad Baqer (a.s.) relates,
‘If people knew the significance and merit of visiting the sacred shrine of Imam Husain (a.s.), they would have died with enthusiasm for visiting it and their breaths would have stopped with its craving.’
The narrator inquired, ‘What is the reward for visiting the sacred shrine?’
Imam (a.s.) informed,
One who visits the shrine with zeal, Allah will recompense him with the reward of 1,000 accepted Hajj, 1,000 Umrah, 1,000 martyrs like the martyrs of Badr, 1,000 fasting ones, 1,000 accepted charities, freeing 1,000 slaves to earn divine pleasure. He will be secure from difficulties and calamities for the entire year, the least of which is Satan. Allah will station an angel on his front, back, left and right who will safeguard him. If he expires in that year, angels of mercy will participate in his shrouding and burial. They will seek divine forgiveness for his sins. They beseech Allah to pardon his transgressions till the time they accompany his bier to the grave. His grave is made wide and expansive for him till the eye can see. Allah grants him security from the squeezing of the grave. The presence of Munkar and Nakeer does not instill fear in him. A door of Paradise opens up for him inside his grave. His list of deeds is presented to him in his right hand. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be blessed with a brilliance with which the East and the West shall be illumined. An announcer will announce, “This is the one who visited Imam Husain’s (a.s.) shrine with zeal and eagerness. After that on the Day of Resurrection, there shall be none but he would wish – If only I had also visited Imam Husain’s (a.s.) shrine.”

(Kaamil al-Ziaaraat, pg. 143, Behaar al-Anwaar, vol. 101 pg. 18)

There are numerous endless Ahadees of Masoomeen(as) about the exalted rewards of Ziaraat,you can confirm from any alim about that 70 Hajj Hadees too.I wonder why you people hesitate in asking ulema,when don't hesitate asking here?

Check this too;,28. Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s.) narrates,
'One who spends 1 dirham in Hajj, it is better than spending 1 lakh (1,00,000) dirham in Allah's way for other religious works. One who spends 1 dirham in Imam's (a.s.) way, it is better than spending 1 lakh dirham in Hajj.'

(Man la Yahzarul Faqih pg. 2,248)

I have only posted two narrations in praise of Ziaraat,though there are endless narrations,if you say i can fill pages of Sc.But i think those who want to believe these are enough for them,those who don't want to,would never believe even if hears Prophet(saww)'s Voice.Like those who were at Ghadeer.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra, 31 July 2012 - 07:23 PM.

[coldcow]

Please give me that hadith you said is from the Prophet , narrated by someone who was alive and old enough to hear the prophet say it.  I'll check it tomorrow morning.

[JAWADISHIA]

WAY TO GO , KANEEZ E ZAHRA!                                                                                                                                                                                     DONT WASTE YOUR BREATH. YOU HAVE GIVEN AMPLE PROOF FOR ANYONE WHO WANTS TO BELIEVE AND IS NOT MERELY INDULGING IN ARGUMENT FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT. AS FOR KISSING THE SHRINES, WHY NOT TEACH OUR KIDS WHY WE DO SO BEFORE THEY STSRT THINKING THAT WE WORSHIP THEM?

[coldcow]

Still waiting on an authentic hadith from the Prophet, narrated by someone who lived during the time of the Prophet.  Even one that says kissing shrines is ok I'll accept and go away.

JAWADISHIA, on 01 August 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

AS FOR KISSING THE SHRINES, WHY NOT TEACH OUR KIDS WHY WE DO SO BEFORE THEY STSRT THINKING THAT WE WORSHIP THEM?

Doesn't happen always happen.  Part of the reason why we have Shias that worship Imam Ali.