33 replies to this topic

[Seeker_Of_God]

Sallam all! And Ramadan karrem.

I was discussing with a friend about the story of Prophet Yunus and whether he commited a sin. Im a little bit confused. The verses (anbiyaa 87...al saffat 139-48) make it appear that in his anger he left his people who werent believing in his message, and he left againsts Gods will, and so God punished him.

But wouldn't that mean that the Prophet sinned?

The tafseer;s that I've read don't really answer the question. I.e. here is from al-islam.org the Ali/Mahdi pooya tafseer:


anbiya, 87:
''The cause of anger Yunus felt was the disobedience of his people who did not respond to his preaching, so Allah tested him by putting him in the belly of a huge fish. When he was engulfed with the darkness of the night, the sea and the belly of the fish, he cried to his Lord and accepted the fact that he should have not gone away in anger breaking off from his people, though they refused to believe in him and Allah.

All the prophets of Allah were aware of the fact that every human being is likely to make mistakes and it is Allah alone who can save him from wrong-doing, so every one of them always prayed to Allah that he might keep himself away from mistakes.

The spiritual force of the prayer- "There is no god but Thou. Glory be to Thee. Verily I have been of the wrong-doers"-has been confirmed by the Holy Prophet and the holy Imams. Verse 88 is the sure effect of the prayer. ''

----

So was God just testing him by punsihing him? Thenw why would Ynus have to pray for forgivness if he didn't make a mistake...?

I don't read Arabic so I cant access Tafseer Mizan...and I also don't have 112 000 dollars to pay for them to complete the translation (just visit the english tafseer mizan webpage to see what I mean).

Does anyone have any sahih hadith on this issue? Or some more tafseer which discusses the matter more?

[Goku]

anger isn't a sin. I'm sure Prophet Muhammad (saw) was also angry at moments. Even Allah (swt) says he can be angry at us (though not how we get angry).

Anger is like happiness, it is a natural humanistic behavior. Not a Sin.

Go to http://www.shiachat....-prophet-jonah/ it has the same question and has the answer =]

Edited by Goku, 25 July 2012 - 03:36 AM.

[Seeker_Of_God]

Goku, on 25 July 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

anger isn't a sin. I'm sure Prophet Muhammad (saw) was also angry at moments. Even Allah (swt) says he can be angry at us (though not how we get angry).

Anger is like happiness, it is a natural humanistic behavior. Not a Sin.

Go to http://www.shiachat....-prophet-jonah/ it has the same question and has the answer =]

Thank you dear brother for the link. I took a look at it and it looks quite helpful. May Allah (swt) bless you in your future endevours ameen.

[Orion]

Prophets and Masooms are sinless. What Prophet Yunus did is called "Tark e Awla" which means not following the best option. As a prophet of God, he was expected to ask Allah before leaving his people. That was the best option for a person of his position. But he did not ask Allah (or wait for his command). Insted, he left is people. This is not sin.

[Ugly Jinn]

Orion, on 26 July 2012 - 03:21 AM, said:

Prophets and Masooms are sinless. What Prophet Yunus did is called "Tark e Awla" which means not following the best option. As a prophet of God, he was expected to ask Allah before leaving his people. That was the best option for a person of his position. But he did not ask Allah (or wait for his command). Insted, he left is people. This is not sin.

No offense but that's such a cop out. Call it what it is, he made a mistake hence the consequence. Prophets can make mistakes without sinning, they were humans, not robots.

"Tark e Awla" is an intellectually dishonest way to describe a mistake.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 26 July 2012 - 07:17 AM.

[Goku]

Ugly Jinn, on 26 July 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

No offense but that's such a cop out. Call it what it is, he made a mistake hence the consequence. Prophets can make mistakes without sinning, they were humans, not robots.

"Tark e Awla" is an intellectually dishonest way to describe a mistake.

mistakes aren't sins. If Muhammad (saw) was holding a bag and accidently dropped it, this is a mistake. Nothing more or less. It isn't a sin or reason to say he isn't infallible. Prophets can make mistakes but they don't sin.

[Ugly Jinn]

Goku, on 26 July 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

mistakes aren't sins. If Muhammad (saw) was holding a bag and accidently dropped it, this is a mistake. Nothing more or less. It isn't a sin or reason to say he isn't infallible. Prophets can make mistakes but they don't sin.

Ugly Jinn, on 26 July 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

No offense but that's such a cop out. Call it what it is, he made a mistake hence the consequence. Prophets can make mistakes without sinning, they were humans, not robots.

[yellow billed magpie]

Salam Aleikum-

I  have the same question regarding Prophet Adam-I  went and looked up the definition of  'infalliable' to make sure I had the right understanding of the word-the definition is : not capable of making mistakes or being wrong (Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary,international students dictionary)

So how was it that Shaitan was able to convince Adam to eat of the tree? Same question came up for me regarding Prophet Moses when he punched and subsequently killed that one guy...Im trying to use the answers to the O.P. to ansswer my questions, too.

Thanks, and PEACE:)

[Orion]

Sinlessness of Prophets in the light of the Qur'an

'Ismah which is generally translated as "sinlessness", literally means 'protection'. The 'protection' with which we are concerned here, is of three kinds:

(1) protection from error in receiving the revelation,

(2) protection from error in communicating and imparting that revelation to the people, and

(3) protection from sins. Sin here means any thing or action which goes against the obligatory command of Allah, and thus becomes a disgrace for the man. In other words, any word or action which is against the dictates of the servitude, homage and devoutness of man towards his Lord.

'Ismah in religious terminology, means the presence, in the man concerned, of a quality which protects him from committing any thing unlawful, any error or sin.

So far as 'ismah from extraneous things (i.e. other than receiving revelation and its communication, and sins) is concerned for example, mistakes in perception by any of the five senses, or misjudging the benefit or harm of a medicine, food or other such thing, etc. - it is not relevant to this verse which we are now discussing.

Anyhow, the Qur'an definitely proves that every prophet was masum (sinless, protected from mistakes,) in all the above mentioned three aspects.

'Ismah from error in receiving the revelation and in its communication to the people: The following sentences, in the verse under discussion, prove these two aspects: so Allah sent the prophets, as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and He sent down with them the book with the truth, so that it might judge between the people in that in which they had differed. And none differed about it but the very people who were given it, after clear signs had come to them, revolting among themselves; whereupon Allah guided, by His will, those who believed to the truth about which they differed.

These words show that Allah sent them to bring the good tidings and to warn; and sent the book with them (and this was the "revelation"), so that they might guide the people to true belief and true deeds. This was the aim and object of Allah in appointing the prophets. And He says: errs not my Lord, nor does He forget. (20:52)It proves that Allah errs not in His action, and makes no mistakes in His affairs; when He wills a thing, He wills it in its proper way which creates the desired effect without fail; when He proceeds with a work, the result is produced without any mistake. It is as it should be, because in His hand is creation and command, and for Him is power and judgment. And He sends prophets by revealing to them the true knowledge of religion and teaching it to them and without fail it must be so; of necessity the prophets must receive and understand the revelation correctly; and He sends them to communicate that revelation to their people, and without fail it must be so; without any error or mistake they must communicate it as Allah has willed. Allah says: Surely Allah attains His purpose; Allah indeed has made a measure for everything (65:3); and Allah is predominant over His affair. (12:21)

Another verse which proves these two types of 'ismah is as follows: The Knower of the Unseen; so He does not reveal His secrets to any except to him whom He chooses for an apostle; for surely He makes a guard to march before him and after him, so that He may know that they have indeed delivered the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses what is with them and He takes account of everything. (72:26-28)It is clear that Allah reserves His revelation for His messengers; so He reveals His secrets to them and supports them by guarding them from in front of them and behind them; and encompasses what is with them to protect the revelation from decay and alteration, whether that alteration comes from Satan or others; and it is done to make sure that they have indeed correctly delivered the messages of their Lord. Another verse reports the words of the angels of revelation: and we do not come down but by the command of your Lord; His is whatever is before us and whatever is behind us and whatever is between these; and your Lord is not forgetful. (19:64)These verses prove that the revelation right from. the start of its descent, to its reaching down to the prophets and up to its communication and delivery to the people is duly protected and guarded against change and alteration, from whatever source it might come.

These two verses prove the 'ismah of the prophets in receiving and delivering the revelation only; but they may also be used, with the addition of one rational premises, to prove their 'ismah from sins. For an average man, actions speaks as loudly as, if not louder than, words. If someone does a certain thing, ‑his action proves that in his eyes that work is good and lawful; it is as if he was announcing its legality and virtue in so many words. If a prophet committed a sin, while he forbade it to his people, it would mean that he was preaching two contradictory things: his action allowed a thing, while his words forbade it. Thus he would be preaching two things contradictory to each other. And preaching contradictory things is against the preaching of truth, because one order would belie and invalidate the other. One who reports two contradictory items cannot be said to be reporting the truth. Therefore, 'ismah of the prophet in delivering the message of Allah totally depends upon his 'ismah from the sins.

There are many other verses which prove 'ismah of the prophets in all its aspects:‑

a- These are they whom Allah has guided; therefore, follow their guidance. (6:90)All the prophets were decidedly guided by Allah. And Allah says: and whomsoever Allah lets go astray, there is no guide for him; and whom Allah guides, there is none that can lead him astray; is not Allah Mighty, the Lord of retribution? (39:36-37)AlsoHe says: whomsoever Allah guides, he is the rightly guided one. (18:17)According to these verses those who are guided by Allah can never be led astray by any misleading agency. In other words, they are free from all misguidance; and every sin is a misguidance, as is shown by the words of Allah, Did I not enjoin on you, 0 children of Adam! that you should not worship the, Satan? Surely he is your open enemy, and that you should worship Me; this is the right way. And certainly he led astray a great multitude from among you. What! could not then understand? (36:60-62)In this verse, Allah counts every sin as going astray, a misguidance as a result of the agency of Satan; at the same time regarding it as the wor­ship of Satan. Looking at all the above verses we find that Allah guided all the prophets by His guidance. Anyone guided by Allah's guidance can never be misled, can never go astray. Every sin is a misguidance; every sin is straying from the right path.

It follows that the prophets of Allah were sinless, free from every sin and protected from every mistake in receiving and delivering the revelation of Allah.

b- And whoever obeys Allah and the Apostle these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed the favors of the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the righteous ones; and excellent are these as companions! (4:69)

Also He says: Keep us on the right path, the path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors, not (the path) of those inflicted with Thy wrath, nor (of those) gone astray. (1:5-7)

The prophets are described as of those upon whom Allah has bestowed His favors; and those upon whom Allah's favors have been bestowed are other than those who have gone astray. It means that the prophets never went astray. If they had commit­ted a sin, they would have gone astray (as explained above). Also, if they had committed any error or mistake in receiving or com­municating the revelation, they would have gone astray. Therefore, the two verses together prove the 'ismah of the prophet~ in all these aspects.

c- These are they on whom Allah bestowed favors, of the prophets of the posterity of Adam, and of those whom We carried with Nuh, and of the posterity of Ibrahim and Israel, and of those whom We guided and chose. When the signs of the Beneficent (God) were recited to them, they fell down prostrating (in obeisance) and weeping. But there followed after them an evil generation, who neglected prayer and followed sensual desires, so they shall soon meet (the result of their) sin. (19:58-59)

This verse attributes two virtues to the prophets: first, the bestowing of favors (upon whom He bestowed favors);second, guidance (whom We guided and chose). Then it goes on praising them for the highest degree of obedience, devoutness and humility before Allah. Afterwards, it condemns the unworthy following generation for their evil traits. Obviously, we see here two opposite groups: one, the praiseworthy ones deserving to be honored by Allah; the other, the condemned ones. This second group has been described as those who followed sensual desires and who will soon see the result of their sins. It clearly means that the first group, i.e. the prophets, did not follow their desires and will not be overtaken by sin. Such sincere servants of Allah could not commit any sin, even before their appointment as prophets. Had they committed any sin even before their receiving prophethood, they would have surely come under the condemnation, neglected prayer and followed sensual desires, so they shall soon meet (the result of their) sin. But, as we explained, theirs is a group of diametrically opposite to the condemned ones.

This Qur'anic proof is somewhat similar to the rational proof given for the 'ismah of the prophets, which is as follows:‑

The sending of the prophets and the showing of miracles in their hands is the confirmation of their words. It means that they cannot tell a lie. Also, it is an endorsement that they have the ability to communicate the message of Allah to their people. But a man who indulges in sins and such actions as would harm a pro­ject, cannot be said to be qualified to preach the usefulness of that project or to invite the people to participate in it. Therefore, when Allah showed miracles in the hands of the prophets it not only authenticated their claim of prophethood, but also confirmed that they could not commit error in receiving ‑and delivering the divine revelation, and that they faithfully obeyed all the com­mands of Allah and desisted from all such things which were disliked by Allah. In other words, they were sinless in all its aspects.

Question: All intelligent people take help, in all varieties of social needs and communications, from those who may discharge their duties to a certain extent, even if their delivery of the mes­sage or their performance in that social work is not quite perfect. What is wrong if Him sends prophets who are capable of doing His work to a certain extent, even if occasionally they indulged in sin?

Reply: Men overlook such defects in their agents for one of two reasons: either they do not mind a little shortcoming and deficiency, or their Him is to get only that amount of service which the agent is qualified for.

But both these alternatives are unacceptable for a divine scheme. These alternatives show the deficiency and shortcoming of not only the agents but also of the principal. Allah cannot be like us mortals.

An Objection: Allah says, why should not then a company from every party from among them go forth that they may acquire (proper) understanding in religion, and that they may warn their people when they come back to them, so that they may be cautious? (9:122)

Here Allah has entrusted Muslim scholars with the task of warning their people. And those scholars are not sinless.

Reply: Muslim scholars (admittedly not sinless) have been allowed by this verse to communicate to their people what they have learned about religion. It does not say that Allah confirms their words of warning, nor that their words are recognized by Allah as a divine proof over people. It is this divine confirmation and recognition which is the basic characteristic of prophethood, not mere warning.

(d) And We did not send any apostle but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission . . . (4:64)The aim of sending an apostle is that he be obeyed, and the verse confines the aim to only this one thing. People should obey the apostle in both his words and actions, because preaching is done in both ways. And both these aspects of obedience are covered by Allah's permission. If an apostle erred in understanding the revelation or in its deli­very, it would still be Allah's will, according to this verse, that people should obey and follow him. But Allah only permits truth. How can His permission be related to an error or mistake? Thus, it is clear that an apostle cannot err in receiving or delivering a revelation. Likewise, if an apostle were to commit a sin, in words or actions, an impossible situation would arise. Sin is disliked by Allah, forbidden by Him. But the verse enjoins people to obey and follow their apostle. Thus that same sin would, at the same time, be for the people an act of obedience which they would be required to follow and copy. It would mean that Allah had, at one and the same time, willed it and not willed it, ordered it and forbade it; liked it and disliked it! As explained earlier, it would be an impossible order. We do not mean an order to do an im­possible work (which, some do say, can be given by Allah!); we mean that giving such an order is in itself an impossibility, because it would be, at one and the same time, an order and a non‑order, a will and non‑will, a liking and non‑liking, a praise and no praise, a condemnation and non‑condemnation!!

(e) so that there may not remain any argument for people against Allah, after the apostles ... (4:165)It is clear that Allah wills to intercept the excuse which people might think of for their sins and disobedience; and that the only way of dismissing such excuse is by sending the apostles to them. The coming of the apostles could cut their excuse short only if the apostles themselves desisted from all those things which Allah does not like ‑ be it in word or action. Otherwise, people could easily give their apostles' sins and mistakes as their excuse, and that argu­ment would be valid against Allah. Therefore, if Allah had sent a non-masum apostle, He would have defeated His own purpose.

Question: It is accepted that the verses prove that the prophets do not commit any mistake or sin. But this does not prove that they had 'ismah. 'Ismah, as defined by scholars, does not mean merely 'not committing any sin'; it is "a faculty which protects a man from committing any sin or mistake". Doing or not doing a work does not prove that the man concerned possesses the faculty, or characteristic, of that doing or not doing. The verses prove that they did not commit any sin; while to prove 'ismah it should be proved that they could not commit any.

Answer: What is needed for proving the subject matter of this verse, is only the fact that the prophets did not commit any sin or mistake. And the questioner accepts that the verses prove it.

To prove that this fact was based on a characteristic or faculty of the prophets, look up the subject of 'miracle' in the first volume. There it was shown that the verse, Surely my Lord is on the straight path (11:56), and Surely Allah attains His purpose; Allah indeed has made a measure for every thing (65:3)prove that every happening depends on a cause which brings it into being. Now in the case of a prophet, we see that all his actions throughout his life are invariably correct, proper and in obedience to Him. This firm and unchanging characteristic shows that there must be a faculty in his soul which protects him from committing any sin or mistakes, and causes all his actions to be in accordance with the commands of Allah. And that faculty is 'ismah.

It is accepted that all actions of a prophet occur by his own will, as do our own actions. But his actions are always in obedience to Him, while our actions are sometimes in obedience and sometimes in disobedience. An action is said to occur by our will when it is based on our knowledge and discretion. Our actions differ in obedience and disobedience because of a difference in the knowledge and will from which they emanate. If our knowledge and will demand to fulfill the dictates of servitude by obeying the divine command, obedience comes into being. If, on the other hand, our knowledge and will prefer the pursuit of pleasure and the satisfaction of lust, then disobedience and sin occur. In short, the difference in the quality of our actions, obedience or disobedience, is caused by the difference in our knowledge and will. Had our knowledge and will remained un­changed throughout our life, all our actions would have been of one type only ‑ either a life‑long obedience to Allah, or, God forbid, an unbroken chain of sins. As the actions of a prophet are invariably. according to the dictates of piety and in obedience to Him, it follows that the knowledge and will from which his actions emanate are healthy ones, invariably good and virtuous. In other words, it is ingrained in his mind and soul that he must always serve and obey Allah. It is this firmly‑rooted knowledge which is called a faculty, characteristics or trait, like the faculty of chastity, of bravery, of justice, and so on. When we admit that a prophet always obeys Allah and never commits any sin, we accept that he possesses a spiritual quality or faculty which always keeps him on right path and protects him from sin and mistakes. And that faculty is 'ismah.

Also, we have shown that a prophet does not commit any error or mistake in receiving or delivering the divine revelation. It means that he possesses a spiritual quality which protects him from such mistakes.

If we say that a prophet does not have this spiritual faculty or characteristic (while it is known that he does not commit any sin or mistake) then it would mean that this unchanging habit (i.e. always following the divine command and desisting from mistake and sin) is not related to any spiritual or psychological trait of his own ‑ in other words, it is caused directly by the will of Allah, and that the prophet has no choice, option or will of his own in his actions; in short his actions are not caused by his knowledge and will. But it is already admitted that the actions of the prophet are based on his knowledge and will just like those of other human beings.

'Ismah comes from Allah; He creates in the prophet a cause from which all his actions emanate - the actions which are done by his own will and are always in obedience to Him; and that cause is the firmly-rooted-knowledge - in other words, the characteristic, trait or faculty.

(Al-Mizan, by Allamah Tabatabai)

[Ugly Jinn]

yellow billed magpie, on 27 July 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

I  have the same question regarding Prophet Adam-I  went and looked up the definition of  'infalliable' to make sure I had the right understanding of the word-the definition is : not capable of making mistakes or being wrong (Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary,international students dictionary)

So how was it that Shaitan was able to convince Adam to eat of the tree? Same question came up for me regarding Prophet Moses when he punched and subsequently killed that one guy...Im trying to use the answers to the O.P. to ansswer my questions, too.

Al-Mizan, by Allamah Tabatabai

"Now, we come to the mistake of Adam. The explanation given under various verses throws sufficient light on this subject. But the importance of the topic justifies its recapitulation in a systematic way:

The verses obviously say that he had committed a mistake and disobeyed the divine command: "... for then you (two) will be of the unjust"; "and Adam disobeyed his Lord, so he got astray", and they too acknowledged their error: "Our Lord! We have been unjust to ourselves, and if Thou forgive us not, and have (not) mercy on us, we shall certainly be of the losers." But on meditating on the verses, and particularly on the admonition not to eat of the tree, we come to a definite conclusion that the said prohibition was not in the nature of an authoritative command; it was rather like an advice to guide Adam to his good and comfort. The following proof irresistibly lead us to this conclusion:"

http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 27 July 2012 - 08:23 PM.

[Martyrdom]

Goku, on 26 July 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

If Muhammad (saw) was holding a bag and accidently dropped it, this is a mistake.

Invading russia in the winter time that's a mistake accidentally dropping a bag on the floor is not.

iblis reply in the Quran "If Thou wilt but respite me to the Day of
Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants
under my sway – All BUT A FEW!” (17: 61–62) even iblis believed in Infallibility and he's our sworn enemy.

[Martyrdom]

Ugly Jinn, on 26 July 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

No offense but that's such a cop out. Call it what it is, he made a mistake hence the consequence. Prophets can make mistakes without sinning, they were humans, not robots.

"Tark e Awla" is an intellectually dishonest way to describe a mistake.

I'm curios brother why you think its a cop out do you believe that a person only has two choices either good or bad not good or better or bad or worse

[Hassan_S]

The question is, why would Allah swt expose this aspect about him. Doesn't he hide the past mis-conduct of the Mu'mineen ? Let alone a Prophet

Edited by Hassan_S, 28 July 2012 - 07:34 PM.

[Martyrdom]

Hassan_S, on 28 July 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

The question is, why would Allah swt expose this aspect about him. Doesn't he hide the past mis-conduct of the Mu'mineen ? Let alone a Prophet

What are you suggesting brother that Allah(swt) shouldn't have included Prophet Yunus(as) in the Quran because we might get the wrong idea. Theirs a moral story behind it i  don't think he was exposing him  God was relating to us the story so we can take the moral lesson  of it and apply it to our life. If we say it was a misconduct of him then what hope do we have if a Prophet of God couldn't act right.

[Hassan_S]

Martyrdom, on 28 July 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

What are you suggesting brother that Allah(swt) shouldn't have included Prophet Yunus(as) in the Quran because we might get the wrong idea. Theirs a moral story behind it i  don't think he was exposing him  God was relating to us the story so we can take the moral lesson  of it and apply it to our life. If we say it was a misconduct of him then what hope do we have if a Prophet of God couldn't act right.

I agree, the Quran is not a story book but rather a book of principles, so I do believe that it was put there for us to derive principles...Which Is why I believe that he did not commit a sin, but even then, it is said that it was a "less-desirable option"....Which makes me think, If I was Yunus, how would I feel if this was exposed? Which leads to the idea that maybe it wasn't even a less desirable option, but rather the best option but we take it out of context.

E.g. The Quran said that Musa a.s asked to see Allah swt, to which it is said that one of Imams a.s replied that Allah swt asked him as to what his people asked him, as a result, he asked Allah just that

Edited by Hassan_S, 28 July 2012 - 08:22 PM.

[Ugly Jinn]

Martyrdom, on 28 July 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

I'm curios brother why you think its a cop out do you believe that a person only has two choices either good or bad not good or better or bad or worse

Because no one is willing to use the word 'mistake' to protect the fragile concept of infallibility, which is intellectually dishonest. Tark e Awla is substituted instead to eliminate the aspect of them making mistakes, otherwise it will destroy the theory that Prophets/Imams were infallible. Choosing the lesser option in itself is a mistake for not choosing the better one.

Allamah Tabatabai clearly states its was a 'mistake', 'disobedience', and an 'error'.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 29 July 2012 - 12:02 AM.

[Martyrdom]

Ugly Jinn, on 28 July 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

Because no one is willing to use the word 'mistake' to protect the fragile concept of infallibility, which is intellectually dishonest. Tark e Awla is substituted instead to eliminate the aspect of them making mistakes, otherwise it will destroy the theory that Prophets/Imams were infallible. Choosing the lesser option in itself is a mistake for not choosing the better one.

Allamah Tabatabai clearly states its was a 'mistake', 'disobedience', and an 'error'.

So you believe Prophets and Imams were sinners?

[Ugly Jinn]

Martyrdom, on 29 July 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

So you believe Prophets and Imams were sinners?

No. But made sinless mistakes.

[Orion]

Ugly Jinn, on 29 July 2012 - 01:24 AM, said:

No. But made sinless mistakes.

Dear Readers,

If prophets and Imams make mistakes (astaghfarAllah) how would their followers know if their particular action was a command of Allah or a humanly mistake. If this was the case, atleast some of what we follow today as Prophet's "Sunnah" could very well be a mistakes!!!!!! This would put their leadership in question. Also it would go against several ayats which tell us to follow the Prophet (S). How could Allah tell us to follow a person who commits mistakes and therefore follow his mistakes. The whole Ummah could be misguided (following their mistakes).

The fact is that everything that a Prophet (S) and for that matter a masoom Imam (A) say or does is in accordence with the command of Allah.

Allah says in Quran about our Prophet :

By the Star when it setteth,
Your comrade erreth not, nor is deceived;
Nor doth he speak of (his own) desire.

(Quran, Sura an-Najm, 53:1-3)

WS

[Ugly Jinn]

^ Before I explain and counter, what do you have to say about Tabatabai's tafsir, "The verses obviously say that he had committed a mistake and disobeyed the divine command: "... for then you (two) will be of the unjust"; "and Adam disobeyed his Lord, so he got astray", and they too acknowledged their error:"?

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 29 July 2012 - 04:54 AM.

[Orion]

^^

Allamah Tabatabai (AR) himself explains the "disobedience" of Prophet Adam as follows:

ADAM: An example of prophetic manners as they turn their faces to their Lord and pray to Him, is the prayer of Adam (a.s.) and his wife quoted by Allah: "Our Lord! We have been unjust to ourselves, and if Thou forgive us not, and have (not) mercy on us, we shall certainly be of the losers." (7:23). This they said after they had eaten from the tree which Allah had forbidden them not to go near; of course, this prohibition was of advisory nature, not an order of a master to his servants; and their disobedience was not of a legislative command, they only went against an advice which was given to them in order to preserve the goodness of their condition; to maintain the felicity of their lives in the garden, safe from every type of infelicity and trouble. Allah had told them while cautioning them against following the Iblis: ...therefore let. him not drive you both from the garden so that you should be unhappy: Surely it is (ordained) for you that you shall not be hungry therein nor bare of clothing; and that you shall not be thirsty therein nor shall you feel the heat of the sun (20:117-9).

(al-Mizan by Allamah Tabatabai)

more: http://www.shiasourc...fsir-5-116-120/

Edited by Orion, 29 July 2012 - 12:39 PM.

[Hassan_S]

Some say Adam transgressed in the heavens, but when he was sent to earth, it was necessary for him to become immaculate in order to carry out his mission.

[Ugly Jinn]

Orion, on 29 July 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Allamah Tabatabai (AR) himself explains the "disobedience" of Prophet Adam as follows:

ADAM: An example of prophetic manners as they turn their faces to their Lord and pray to Him, is the prayer of Adam (a.s.) and his wife quoted by Allah: "Our Lord! We have been unjust to ourselves, and if Thou forgive us not, and have (not) mercy on us, we shall certainly be of the losers." (7:23). This they said after they had eaten from the tree which Allah had forbidden them not to go near; of course, this prohibition was of advisory nature, not an order of a master to his servants; and their disobedience was not of a legislative command, they only went against an advice which was given to them in order to preserve the goodness of their condition; to maintain the felicity of their lives in the garden, safe from every type of infelicity and trouble. Allah had told them while cautioning them against following the Iblis: ...therefore let. him not drive you both from the garden so that you should be unhappy: Surely it is (ordained) for you that you shall not be hungry therein nor bare of clothing; and that you shall not be thirsty therein nor shall you feel the heat of the sun (20:117-9).

(al-Mizan by Allamah Tabatabai)

more: http://www.shiasourc...fsir-5-116-120/

The above supports my argument, hence a mistake and not a sin, that is the point.

The above clearly states, "This they said after they had eaten from the tree which Allah had forbidden them not to go near", and Adam and his wife clearly admitting, "Our Lord! We have been unjust to ourselves, and if Thou forgive us not, and have (not) mercy on us, we shall certainly be of the losers." And Tabatabai clearly states it was a "mistake".

So I will ask again, did Adam make a mistake? Yes/No? (If not, then you contradict Tabatabai)

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I will reply to post #19 after your answer.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 29 July 2012 - 05:22 PM.

[Orion]

Ugly Jinn, on 29 July 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

The above supports my argument, hence a mistake and not a sin, that is the point.

The above clearly states, "This they said after they had eaten from the tree which Allah had forbidden them not to go near", and Adam and his wife clearly admitting, "Our Lord! We have been unjust to ourselves, and if Thou forgive us not, and have (not) mercy on us, we shall certainly be of the losers." And Tabatabai clearly states it was a "mistake".

So I will ask again, did Adam make a mistake? Yes/No? (If not, then you contradict Tabatabai)

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I will reply to post #19 after your answer.

^^ What you have focused above is the ayat quoted by Allamah Tabatabai while you have completly ignored the comment and tafsir by Allamah Tabatabai (AR) which says: "this prohibition was of advisory nature, not an order of a master to his servants; and their disobedience was not of a legislative command, they only went against an advice which was given to them in order to preserve the goodness of their condition; to maintain the felicity of their lives in the garden, safe from every type of infelicity and trouble".

So it is clear to me that Adam (A) went against an advise. For example, it is advised to offer such and such "mustahab" prayers after Magrib. Naturally if we perform these advisory prayers we will benefit from them and if we dont we will not benefit from their goodness. But not offering these "mustahab" prayers is not an error since they have not been made mandatory by Allah. The best option (awla) for Adam (A) was to follow the advise and not eat from that tree. But he chose not to take that option (he left the best option, Tark e Awla).

Ugly Jinn, if you understand what I have said, its ok. If you have not, than go back and read what Allamah has said. Read other tafsirs like Tafsir Namuna by Grand Ayatullah Nasir Makarim Shirazi and ponder. Due to my past experience with you and your bad behaviour, I am not interested in any further discussion with you.
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However, if other readers have any questions I will be happy to explain (as much as I can).

WS

[Ugly Jinn]

Orion, on 30 July 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

^^ What you have focused above is the ayat quoted by Allamah Tabatabai while you have completly ignored the comment and tafsir by Allamah Tabatabai (AR) which says: "this prohibition was of advisory nature, not an order of a master to his servants; and their disobedience was not of a legislative command, they only went against an advice which was given to them in order to preserve the goodness of their condition; to maintain the felicity of their lives in the garden, safe from every type of infelicity and trouble".

So it is clear to me that Adam (A) went against an advise. For example, it is advised to offer such and such "mustahab" prayers after Magrib. Naturally if we perform these advisory prayers we will benefit from them and if we dont we will not benefit from their goodness. But not offering these "mustahab" prayers is not an error since they have not been made mandatory by Allah. The best option (awla) for Adam (A) was to follow the advise and not eat from that tree. But he chose not to take that option (he left the best option, Tark e Awla).

Ugly Jinn, if you understand what I have said, its ok. If you have not, than go back and read what Allamah has said. Read other tafsirs like Tafsir Namuna by Grand Ayatullah Nasir Makarim Shirazi and ponder. Due to my past experience with you and your bad behaviour, I am not interested in any further discussion with you.
---------

However, if other readers have any questions I will be happy to explain (as much as I can).

Going against Allah's advise was a mistake! Why are you being dishonest when Alamah Tabatabai clearly states, "The verses obviously say that he had committed a mistake and disobeyed the divine command: "... for then you (two) will be of the unjust"; "and Adam disobeyed his Lord, so he got astray", and they too acknowledged their error:".

You can't get around this when Tabatabai clearly states Adam made a mistake, whether it was an advice, command, etc., doesn't matter because his action was regrettable. Those who have any ounce of honesty can read and decide for themselves.

And what bad behavior, I'm being totally respectful. You always try to sneak your way out of such discussions by not answering the question or ignoring clear facts. Just like now, you just post your agenda and keep dodging the question at hand. So l'll ask again:

Did Adam make a mistake? Yes/No?

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 30 July 2012 - 10:13 PM.