63 replies to this topic

[Logic]

Haydar Husayn, on 31 July 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

Tell me honestly, do you really think there is a hadith that gives this title to all these different members of the Ahlulbayt ?

Here you are 2 weeks ago asking "However, I've never actually seen any hadiths quoted where these titles are bestowed on them. Is anyone aware of any?"

Seems like you have already came to a conclusion so honestly tell us what research did you accomplish other then posting this question on this forum.

Now do you notice the trend of your problem?

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Are you claiming we don't actually know what the true view of the early scholars was?

Dont argue for the sake of arguing. You know exactly what i am trying to imply.

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'Local Aalims' are usually not worth consulting, since they mostly don't know why they believe what they believe either.

Nice! Dont consult local aalims who have libraries of book instead post on Shiachat and ask the people of Shiachat to contribute. Maybe one of them would get lucky.

I am very curious to know the names of the books you have read to grade aalims and zaakirs. Please list them. Maybe if i am impressed i will stop listening to them and take your advice.

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This makes no sense. Everything I ask should be provable from the Qur'an and the ahadith. If it can't, then it should be thrown out. It seems you are comfortable simply relying on blind faith, but thinking people usually aren't.

That's rich... Do you possess knowledge of all our hadith and tafsir of quraan? Secondly, When you read hadith how do you grade them? after all you have a problem with blind faith so i am assuming you do you own research first.

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Which one? That there are non-Muslims who know more about Islam than you? You are extremely delusional if you think that isn't true.

If they have more knowledge then more power to them. I have no problem admitting it.

I wont respond to your other jabs cause they are based on assumption.

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Your local Zakir? Wow. I have to admit that I actually overestimated you.

  Compared to your Sheikh al Islam "el Google Search bar"

[Haydar Husayn]

I'm bored of this discussion now Logic, and you really aren't worth taking the time to respond to. If you want to continue throwing your tantrums everytime I ask a question or give my opinion, then do so, but I won't be taking the bait. As for warning others about me, I doubt anyone who would be likely to take any notice of what I say is going to take seriously a person who consults his local zakir for religious knowledge.

[Logic]

Haydar Husayn, on 31 July 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

I'm bored of this discussion now Logic, and you really aren't worth taking the time to respond to. If you want to continue throwing your tantrums everytime I ask a question or give my opinion, then do so, but I won't be taking the bait. As for warning others about me, I doubt anyone who would be likely to take any notice of what I say is going to take seriously a person who consults his local zakir for religious knowledge.

The minute you are put on the hot seat you decide to bail.


As a courtesy please respond to this question.List the names of the books you have read to grade aalims and zaakirs. If i am impressed i will stop listening to them and take your advice.

Go ahead dazzle us all with your knowledge.

[Abdul Qaim]

Haydar Husayn, on 31 July 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

I'm bored of this discussion now Logic, and you really aren't worth taking the time to respond to. If you want to continue throwing your tantrums everytime I ask a question or give my opinion, then do so, but I won't be taking the bait. As for warning others about me, I doubt anyone who would be likely to take any notice of what I say is going to take seriously a person who consults his local zakir for religious knowledge.

Actually, he raises some excellent points, though he delivers them in a mordant fashion, which means you are less likely to take notice of them.

You start threads purportedly asking for help in finding information on a particular topic from SC members. In reality you have already done your own research (how exhaustive is known only to you)  and formulated a conclusion. Why don't you simply start threads with titles like "Bab ul Hawaij is not Authentic", and then present information to support your thesis? It would be a more transparent and honest way to promulgate your views.

[Murtada]

People, what on earth is wrong with asking for a hadeeth that specifies the A'imma or other select individuals as Baab ul Hawaaij? Why can't you take what the ma'sumeen have given and leave anything they have not?

[Abdul Qaim]

Murtada, on 31 July 2012 - 11:38 PM, said:

People, what on earth is wrong with asking for a hadeeth that specifies the A'imma or other select individuals as Baab ul Hawaaij? Why can't you take what the ma'sumeen have given and leave anything they have not?

Absolutely nothing. It's the OP's method that annoys some people here, apparently. Read my previous post ...

[Kismet110]

Haydar Husayn, on 31 July 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

Well, I am the only one who is in a position to be certain whether or not I am a Wahhabi. I've made it clear that I'm not, and there is more than enough evidence from my posts to back that up. If people want to slander me, during the month of Ramadan or all times, then that is their business, but I hope they realise the consequences of what they are doing. Slander is not a joke in Islam.

Doubts can be healthy. Overcoming them leads to stronger faith. Anyway, it is absurd to suggest that I would be held responsible for someone having doubts because I question whether al-Abbas ibn `Ali really was 8 feet tall, or because I asked what the origin of the title Bab ul Hawaij was.

How can you get refuted after asking a question? Anyway, as it turns out, my suspicion that there were no ahadith to back up this title, seems to have been confirmed.

Are these things really so important to your `aqeeda? If so, then I feel sorry for you.

I don't know about you specifically, but it's certainly something often done by people with your views. Even on this thread someone tried to twist the verse about seeking nearness to Allah to back up praying to Imams.

Aren't you the one who told me to get a thick skin? Then I suggest you do the same instead of getting all high and mighty because people have suspicion on your claim to be a Shi'ah. Act like x and you'll be called x, simple.

You can try the innocent inquisitive act but it doesn't work. You used Wikipedia and your own guesswork to 'prove' it couldn't be possible then suggested anyone who thinks differently is wrong.

Every single thread I've seen you start over the last few months you get plenty of answers that make it clear your position is wrong. But you're not asking because you genuinely want to know, you're mind was made up before you posted so start being honest rather than acting like it's a subject you're unsure on.

Just because something isn't part of aqueedah does it mean it's fair play to denigrate it? Tell me, is love of all sahaba a core part of sunni aquaid? No, but does that stop sunnis being offended if you present any of them in a bad light?

You accused me directly of misquoting Noble Quran, now you change it to "I don't know about you specifically"?

Shame on your lying and hypocrisy. In Mahe Ramadhan.

Haydar Husayn, on 31 July 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

By the way, you've done worse than that. You have narrated a fabricated hadith, with a fabricated reference.

http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2388151

If you weren't so biased, you would probably have realised that the hadith was very unlikely to be real, and would certainly not have risked quoting it without checking it for yourself.

Someone (usually reliable) posted me a narration and I repeated it here. As soon as br macisaac pointed out it was not correct I removed it from my sig and posted to acknowledge the fact. It's called a mistake.

Tell me, how many times have you posted to acknowledge you were wrong?

ALI

Edited by Kismet110, 01 August 2012 - 07:14 AM.

[Haydar Husayn]

Kismet110, on 01 August 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

Aren't you the one who told me to get a thick skin? Then I suggest you do the same instead of getting all high and mighty because people have suspicion on your claim to be a Shi'ah. Act like x and you'll be called x, simple.

Except that I'm not acting like x, which most people here can see apart from a select few who apparently have emotional and intellectual difficulties that lead to a very selective reading of my posts.

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You can try the innocent inquisitive act but it doesn't work. You used Wikipedia and your own guesswork to 'prove' it couldn't be possible then suggested anyone who thinks differently is wrong.

Yet again with the wikipedia comments? Tell me straight out, do you doubt that the information I quoted from wiklpedia is accurate? You seem to want to have it both ways, by criticising me for using wikipedia, but at the same time being unwilling to stick your neck out and say that you believe the information is wrong.

If you believe it is wrong, then say so. And if you believe it isn't, then stop crying about it.

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Every single thread I've seen you start over the last few months you get plenty of answers that make it clear your position is wrong. But you're not asking because you genuinely want to know, you're mind was made up before you posted so start being honest rather than acting like it's a subject you're unsure on.

In this instance, I genuinely didn't know whether there were any ahadith or not. I had a suspicion that there weren't, for various reasons, but I didn't know for sure. So I gave people the chance to provide any, but the indications are that they don't exist.

As for these answers you are talking about, where are they? Did someone post a hadith on here? No. Did someone prove that al-Abbas ibn `Ali was over 8 feet tall? No. Obviously you are desperate to hold on to your beliefs, so you will cling to any straws, but that doesn't mean that it counts as solid proof.

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Just because something isn't part of aqueedah does it mean it's fair play to denigrate it? Tell me, is love of all sahaba a core part of sunni aquaid? No, but does that stop sunnis being offended if you present any of them in a bad light?

If something is fabricated and/or absurd, then of course it's fair play to denigrate it.

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You accused me directly of misquoting Noble Quran, now you change it to "I don't know about you specifically"?

Actually, if you read carefully, you will see that I didn't accuse you specifically.

"As for someone with your views accusing others of misquoting the Qur'an to suit their personal beliefs, that is just beyond hilarious."

In other words, I was accusing people with your type of views for doing it. However, I have to admit that I didn't actually mean 'misquote', I meant 'twist'. I don't recall any specific instances of people changing the wording of an ayah. Instead, ayahs are usually taken out of context or given weird interpretations. So for that, I apologise.

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Shame on your lying and hypocrisy. In Mahe Ramadhan.

You have the nerve to say this after slandering me? Wow.

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Someone (usually reliable) posted me a narration and I repeated it here. As soon as br macisaac pointed out it was not correct I removed it from my sig and posted to acknowledge the fact. It's called a mistake.

This is basically the problem with you guys. When it comes to confirming the things you already believe, you just switch off your brains, and take whatever is given to you by 'usually reliable' people. If you have been able to thinking objectively for even a few seconds, I'm sure even you could have figured out that the chances of this hadith being real were almost non-existent. However, your extreme bias blinded you to the obvious.

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Tell me, how many times have you posted to acknowledge you were wrong?

Many times.

[Logic]

Murtada, on 31 July 2012 - 11:38 PM, said:

People, what on earth is wrong with asking for a hadeeth that specifies the A'imma or other select individuals as Baab ul Hawaaij? Why can't you take what the ma'sumeen have given and leave anything they have not?

Murtada  the issue is not as simple as it appears. Do you honestly think we are that shallow to have this problem when Shiachat has a subsection asking for proof of the existence of Allah and His attributes? Think about it.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

HH its not our side which interpret Ayaat out of context but quite the other way around.

[Haydar Husayn]

Abdul Qaim, on 31 July 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

Actually, he raises some excellent points, though he delivers them in a mordant fashion, which means you are less likely to take notice of them.

You start threads purportedly asking for help in finding information on a particular topic from SC members. In reality you have already done your own research (how exhaustive is known only to you)  and formulated a conclusion. Why don't you simply start threads with titles like "Bab ul Hawaij is not Authentic", and then present information to support your thesis? It would be a more transparent and honest way to promulgate your views.

I didn't name the thread "Bab ul Hawaij is not authentic" for the simple reason that I didn't know for sure (I suppose I still don't, but I would be quite shocked at this point if there were such a hadith, for Hadhrat Abbas at least). I had a suspicion that it wasn't when I started the thread, and wanted to see if anyone would provide proof to the contrary (which has happened on other topics).

I don't think there is anything wrong with asking for proof of something that you are sceptical about.


A general point I would make is I have noticed that people (and not just those on shiachat) get the most upset over questions where they think there might actually not be a good answer. When there is a really convincing way to answer someone, then the question never bothers them, rather they are happy to get a chance to 'knock it out of the park'. However, the weaker the evidence on which they are relying, the more upset they get when you question them on it.

[rotten_coconut]

Haydar Husayn, on 17 July 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

The title of Bab ul Hawaij (the door to fulfilling people's needs) has been given to both Imma Musa al-Kadhim (a) and to al-Abbas ibn `Ali, and possibly others as well. However, I've never actually seen any hadiths quoted where these titles are bestowed on them. Is anyone aware of any?

Salam,

I'm going to start my opinions with 2 points:
1. I'm not aware that we can only give titles if they are included in sahih/hasan/muwaththaq ahadith.
2. Nevertheless, logically, the given title must be inline with sahih/hasan/muwaththaq ahadith. For example (albeit, an extreme one), we can't give title of "Son of God" to the Aimmah .

Now, let's look at the title in discussion, Bab al-Hawaij. I'm not an Arabic speaker, so I'm going to take your translation, "the door to fulfilling people's needs", as granted.
Comparing this to the ahadith, I think the answer it's not a straight black and white. It will depend on how one interprets this.
- If one interprets this as "following them since it's one of the best form of wasilah", then I don't think it's wrong.
- If one interprets this as "the only way to get our needs is by asking them to pray for us and we can't pray to ALLAH (swt) directly", that's definitely wrong, since we have a lot of prayers where we're asking to ALLAH (swt) directly.
- If one interprets this as "the best way is asking them to pray for us as wasilah because it's better than asking to ALLAH (swt) directly due to our shortcomings", then this is a gray area, because some (such as you) don't agree with this, but some do.

In short, I think the meaning of a title is much more important than whether a title is backed by ahadith or not.

[Abdul Qaim]

@ Hayder Husayn : Quite a shock to find an email advising me that you had quoted one of my posts in a thread that's been dead for 4 1/2 months. Why are you trying to revive it - boredom, perchance ?

[shia4life]

Guys Haydar hussain (thats not his real name) is a Wahhabi and I said that earlier, just ignore his posts. Replying to him is a waste of energy and thought.