35 replies to this topic

[JawzofDETH]

Chaotic Muslem, on 15 August 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

1- Prophet Mohamad was mentioned in old books according to Quran
2- Jews refuse to believe in his prophethood because he is not a decendant fron Isaac
3- we do know about the 12 tribes of Israel and 12 disples of Jesus, i dont remmber there are any signifact 12 figures that the holy books should mention beside those, i dont see why it isnt possible that the 12 "princes" are the imams
4- there is no "great" nation from the decendants of Ismael that i know of in history beside the nation of our prophet

1) No one denies that.

2) Has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

3) Just because you are unaware of the historical facts does not invalidate them, there is biblical evidence of 12 officers in charge in the time of Solomon in the bible, should we reject this also because we you are unaware of them or also wish to make the imaams fit where they don't belong? ...And besides, more importantly the Qur'aan mentions Musa appoints 12 cheiftans, you haven't mentioned them either.

4) The same verse that you are trying to connect with the 12 Imaams mentions "great nation."
So again, you're unawareness of the genealogical realities or the biblical context here does not make a point for discussion.
The "great" refers to multitude or number, resulting from Ishmael having had 12 sons, it is not used as a descriptive word.

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation."

Was-Salaam

[JawzofDETH]

I must advise after double-checking that the holy Prophet may have been a descendant of Kedar, but I'm not sure. There appears to be some conflicting views about this...

This article : http://www.missionis...mprel/isiah.htm
...and many like it state the holy Prophet Muhammad was a descendant of Kedar.
They were those whom 'settled in 'Paran' (Faran/ Hejaz)
So this is a logical conclusion.

But this geneology that I myself a while back modified from content I found on playandlearn.org says he was a descendant from Nabth:
http://www.shiachat....50#entry2295398

So I'm not sure which is right...

Was-Salaam

Edited by JawzofDETH, 22 August 2012 - 10:15 AM.

[Musa]

Me sunni, on 24 July 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

If Imam Ali was what the Shia claim him to be HOW come he is not mentioned once in the Quran & please don't give me he was named indirectly cause my real name was mentioned many times in the Quran....

Both Sunnis and Shia agree that verses in the Qur'an refer to Imam Ali so you can refer to your own books.

I will give you an example, I do not know the exact verse number but both sects of Islam believe that it is referring to Imam Ali. At one point in Islam Allah ordered people to give the prophet a payment for asking him questions, and to my knowledge most or all of the people stopped asking the prophet questions except for Imam Ali who would ask him many questions and give him the payment. After that Allah took this burden off the people so they did not have to pay.

Other examples:

Shakir 42:23] That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: ; and I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful.

This is speaking about the ahlul bayt which includes Imam Ali.

[Shakir 3:61] But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

I do not know the sunni view on mubahillah but according to shia belief at least, the prophet took his sons, Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain (really his grandsons, but the Qur'an refers to them as his sons and that is the same reason why Shia's refer to them as his sons). His women, refers to Lady Fatima and "ourselves" or near people as it is translated here refers to Imam Ali.

[Shakir 33:33] And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.


Tirmidhi, Ibn Jarir Tabari, Hakim and Tibrani have related from Ummi Salima that when this verse was revealed the Holy Prophet was under a blanket or mantle along with Ali, Fatimah, Hasan and Husayn, and he declared that his family consisted of only these persons. Ummi Salima, his wife, within whose quarters the revelation came, asked permission to be included in the group under the blanket, but she was politely refused permission. The group is known ever since with the epithet "panjtan pak" or "the holy group of five".
Ibn Hajr in Sawa-iq, chapter 11, page 160 and Ibn Sad in Tabaqat in the account of Umar bin Khattab have accepted that the near relatives of the Holy Prophet are the Ahl ul Bayt. The same opinion is found in Tafsir Kashaf, Sahih Muslim, Musnad ibn Hanbal and Tafsir Durr al Manthur.

The "leaders" of the Islamic ummah were known to curse Imam Ali and torture/kill followers of Ali, so it is only logical that Allah did not put his name directly in the Qur'an. The Qur'an would have definitely been changed if this was so. There are also other ayyats, maybe others on this forum can mention them (one comes to mind about Imam Ali and the Qur'an talking about those who give zakat during prayer.

Peace be upon you.

[bitto]

Assalaam alaikum

"Twelve prince(s) shall [Ishmael] beget, and I shall make him a great nation." [Gen. 17:20]
But later on, The Bible actually names these twelve men and says they are the twelve sons of Ishmael:
"And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth: and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,
Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah; [Gen. 25:13-15]
And right after that they make reference to the twelve princes again:
"These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; these are the twelve prince(s) according to their nations." [Gen. 25:16]

Well ,those well versed with both Injeel and Quraan e pak can understand it very easily.Since Allah did say that many times in the Quran that the verses are sometimes signs and these signs are enough for people who understand.So why do you people maybe jew ,christian or any Muslim start thinking all of a sudden that Mazallah Quran will be as clear and simple like ABC book.May be when you were small,you found that book too ,too complex to understand. So you must be patient and try to learn and understand.
Imam Ali(a.s) was called Ishmael by the jews of his time.They called him Ishmael as they thought and believed angel Ishmael to be the distributor of food to all mankind.When they saw Ali(a.s) giving food to many and everyday ,they laughed and called him  Ishmael.So didn't Allah reveal to them in their own language.The Jews spoke that with their own mouths and now if they deny it is upto Allah to decide about them and nothing else.We should all be patient.
       The first born of Ishmael how clearly is it mentioned "the first born " it clearly mentions Imamat of Imam Hasan(a.s).
Nebajoth ---- Neba is a place in between (Mecca/Medina to karbala).Joth in hebrew language means "to travel".Jothua means a traveller.So again as the first person who posted this topic has mentioned in his post that they will be known by places.Yes Imam  Husain(a.s) is the one who travelled from Medina to Mecca and from Mecca to kerbala.This is a very well known fact and hence makes it very clear as to who is the Imam.A very clear sign.

Qeedar was a king who hide himself to worship Allah.This again is a sign towards Imam Zain ul Abideen(a.s) who sent food to the poor ,gave land to the rich and coins and rings to the other shia people.But he remained hidden most time of his Imamat and spent his time in Ibadat (worship) of Allah and hence title "Zain al Abideen" meaning "pride/jewel of the worshippers."This again is a very clear sign for those who wanted to understand and people did understand in those good olden days.Thanks to all those Jews who became Muslims.Alhamdolillah.
     Adbeel in hebrew or aramaic language means tadbeer.Tadbeer e Mohammed ---.> Imam Mohammed Baqir(a.s)
Mibsam converts to Arabic/Persian "Meesam" meaning clear in aramaic,hebrew meaning bright,in Arabic masoom as well as bright.It clearly states a man of high intelligence,clear wisdom,a very bright person full of noor Imam Jafar as Sadiq(a.s) who was well know amongst the jews as a bright person.They did call him by different names "Qamar" meaning moon ,also "Mibsam" meaning bright.These names were called out by the jews of those times,so this time people need not argue about it as they were not present at that time.

Mishma is also called Mahishma or can be said a slang used by the then jews.Originally Mahishma means a saintly person.A saint of high honour.Imam Moosa e Kazim(a.s) was well known for his quiet nature.He did not argue or fight with anybody.Rather he kept praying and looked towards the sky even if somebody hurled abuses at him.So he was called Saint by the his neighbouring Jews who laughed and joked about him,but finally gave up calling him a saint ,a "Mishma".
Another meaning Mishma if derived from Ishma meaning wealth(khazana) in Hebrew.Here again it can be wealth of world as well as deen(religion).If Mishma is a change of Hishma which jews used to call shia muslims as descendants of Hashim.But then it won't be that clear.
   Dumah or Zummah as pronounced by shias is a very sweet type of date palm fruit.Imam Ali Raza (a.s) spoke in a very sweet manner even with his enemies.Seeing his behaviour the Jews named him/called him Dumah(the sweet one).
Massa is a variation used by jews for the word "Messiah" .Mesiha in urdu.Imam Mohammed Taqi(a.s) had the habit of helping everybody irrespective of the person's faith.So he was called "Messiah" or "Massa" by the jews who never spoke clearly but spoke in slangs and didn't Allah speak to them in their own language.

Hedar meaning lion.also a brave man,an intelligent warrior.The people who witnessed the event of Khaibar called Ali(a.s) a lion.Hedar or Haidar was then generally used to call somebody Ali.Since Imam Ali Naqi(a.s) was much like Moula Ali(a.s), and his name too Ali,the jews called him Haidar ,the same which they used ti call Imam Ali(a.s).

    Tema again is used for a general reference to any Imam possessing the quality of distibuting taam meaning distributing food.Although the word "tema" is used by jews for a person appointed by a king to distribute food.

     Jetur in Hebrew and other Aramaic languages means "Fatah" meaning victorius.Imam Hasan Askari(a.s) as a youth got never subdued by anybody in a fight.Hence the jews who fought with him in his boyish age lost to him and called him Jetur the victorius.

Naphish and Qadeema referring to the qualities of our very very nice Imam in ghaib,Imam Mehdi(a.s).
Naphish in hebrew meaning Nafees meaning a very sophisticated person.Qadeema as pronounced by jews mostly adding "a" to every word.Qadeema here refers to Qadeem.









.

[bitto]

Qadeem means Qayam means living.This again refers to the 12th Imam(a.s)

Shukran

[Haydar Husayn]

So to make this reference to the 12 Imams work, you have to identify Imam Ali with Ishmael , one of the sons to be any Imam, and then the final two sons of Ishmael with Imam Mahdi ? Pretty desperate stuff.

Anyway, you seem to have misunderstood something. Nebajoth is actually the first born son of Ishmael , not a seperate person.

[daydreamer01]

tahiraansari, on 22 July 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

Salams and welcome,
Hadith tells us that the Prophet Mohammad and the Imams a.s. were mentioned in the previous books if not by name, by description.
Sorry that this is a quick note, but i went through the process you are going through now and out of frustration of all the massive amounts of info that wasn't necessarily well organized. I'd love to send you the easiest format I have seen for a newcomer.... each topic with a few pages of simple introduction followed by nothing but hadith... all in an order that paints the picture clearly.

It is good to have explanations from people, but the best is always from the Prophet and the Imams a.s. who Allah appointed to protect His Truth.
I don't know how to writeto you here or i would send my e-mail... so if you want, find out how write me here and i'll send whatever you need... i have about 50 different notebooks on various topics. it starts with Prophethood, Imammat, (who appoints them) and also the other topics... Health care advice from the Prohet and his Family a.s., Islamic perspectives on life, spirituality etc etc.  It is all hadith and Tafsi (explanation) of Qur'an by the Prophet Mohammad and his Family a.s.

salaam, i would be grateful if you could share your notes with me as well: perpetualdreamer01@gmail.com
thank you in advance.

[bitto]

Nobody is forcing anyone to believe.So nobody is desperate.Desperate for what? Quran is sufficient.We Muslims don't need old references.It was for the jews and christians.

[dexter]

This link might prove to be of some help to the members.

http://www.al-islam....tures/title.htm

[Luqman72]

This discussion i find intersesting. I would have expected to find uniform conviction in some kind of 'hint'. Whether  Allah swt deals with certain numbers especially is iirc not stated in koran. I think what the 12 may do though is form a sense of dynamic fusion with historical prophetic tradition.

[Login]

Me sunni, on 24 July 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

If the 12 imams are what the Shia claim then why did the profit saws say in a wajib Hadith that Imam Mehdi will have the same name as me, the same fathers name as me? So Mohamad Abu Adullah? If this is the case then the Shia line cannot work!

The bible should never be used as a reference for anything as its clearly been corrupted so badly!
If Imam Ali was what the Shia claim him to be HOW come he is not mentioned once in the Quran & please don't give me he was named indirectly cause my real name was mentioned many times in the Quran....

The Prophet (P&PUH) said that " the Mahdi's name will be similar to mine and he's fathers name will be similar to mine ". And he also said " he's name will be Ahmad Mohammmad Mahdi". And then He also said " He's name will not be "Ahmad, Mohammad, or Mustafa". End of hadith. There is a secret behind all doors.