3 replies to this topic

[adnan121]

The first myth I see in most debates is that Sunni clamed imamate is Shia concept but it is both in Shia and Sunni school of thought. (First myth dispelled)
“Whosoever dies without recognizing the Imam of his time dies the death of the ignorance “(Ignorers means who does kufur , infidel )time b4 Islam !
This is both in Shia and Sunni books, so now let’s talk I’m trying to keep this short as I can.
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Imam defined as: imam in the sense of individual who succeed the prophet of Islam, who sits in his place as the guardian of Islamic legislation with intention of preserving the message of Islam and Quran and guiding the Muslim in world affairs.
(((not imam as imam quammani  or imam gazali  or imam shafi and others)))
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When you understand it in this sense, then you know it is WAJIB (obligatory) to pledge allegiance and to obey imam.. Both by Sunni and Shia.
Ahmad b. Hanbal say not one who doesn’t “know”? But one who doesn’t “HAVE” an imam )
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Having imam in Islam is so important that Islamic scholars not shiia but Sunnis believe that this chain of imams went OFF on “3rd of march 1924” after prophet there where 4 kalifas,  after the 4 then came  banu umaya , banu abbas , then  ottoman empire,  in world war 1 ottoman empire was  disbanded by Mustafa Kamal at a Turk  …. From then Muslim have been living without an imam..Most of u who are from India n pak knows about the kilfat moment –
(I m Kashmiri Jno Indian no Pakistan) FREEDOM J ) ok so …

There have been websites made and dedicated to kilfat movement .eg: kalifa.com
there are moments to revive kalifat movement there are call for restoration of kilafat , there are sites made counters , how many days Muslims have lived without imam or kilafat , and Muslims are answerable to Allah for these many days .
Short story :
After Marwan died and his son abul malik became kalif and when Abdullah ibnay umar found out this he said I have today to give out allegiance or els if I die I will die the death of ignorant   , he went to hajjaj ibany taqafi , hajja was an Tyron leader –and the governor! He goes to place of hajjaj ,hajja was sleeping because of his reputation he goes in the room ,hajjaj say what do want Abdullah he says I have come to do baya pelage allegiance of you , hajjaj says hear take my foot do my baya allegiance-
Narrations says Abdullah ibnay umar went and did baya of him and said yah Allah bair witness I have done allegiance so if I die I die knowing my imam. , he did do baya of his foot.
(this is from ibnay ibl hadeed al motazali not Shia from najul bulaga )
(This is all from Sunni history seera of prophet)
Purpose of saying this is Muslims have always in need of imam .
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Now my question to Sunnis –
(((remember it’s one thing to take ur words from internet and other but one when u got to the original source from ppl like who are experts of kalaam (Theology)))))))
abu bakar al baklani ! and others ! not mufaseer of quran or hades !
1) What is the quality of imam? (Shias have their quality plain and clear)
2) What cancels the imamate of an imam?
3) How is imamate wajib ?

[Shajee]

Assalamo alaikum

May I ask the following related question from my Shia brothers and sisters:

Quote: Imam defined as: imam in the sense of individual who succeed the prophet of Islam, who sits in his place as the guardian of Islamic legislation with intention of preserving the message of Islam and Quran and guiding the Muslim in world affairs. Unquote

The above definition implies an Imam must also have the hukoomat.

If imamat is such a fundamental thing (per Shia belief) then who is performing or supposed to perform the role of the Imam in ghaibat-e-kubra?

Wussalam

[adnan121]

If imamat is such a fundamental thing (per Shia belief) then who is performing or supposed to perform the role of the Imam in ghaibat-e-kubra?

During the period of Ghaibat-e-Kubra, when it is not possible to establish communication with Imam-e-Zamana (a.s), the people have been ordered to follow the teachings of the Quran and Ahlul Bayt (a.s) through the pious and religious scholars and the just jurists. The people must follow them to know what obligations they are supposed to fulfil.

[adnan121]

OK  looks like sunni have not studied the chapter of immat properly from their books so let me now try an answers from sunni books and people like who have writin 52 volumes of books defending sunni madhab (abu bakar al baklani ) AND people of his caliber.

1) What is the quality of imam?
There is so many things according the theology’s but 4 things that u find common is :

35]1) must be god fearing and just

35]2)   must not be unjust must have experts  with war.((so he doesn’t run away from battle fields ))

35]3)   He must be knowledgeable must be at least have knowledge of judge.

35]4)   He must have a qurashi descend.

Now we observe there is lot of difference in these theologians as far as I understand from Sunni perspective prophet of Islam has not said clearly, who he is and what the qualities are .

2) What cancels the imamate of an imam?

8]·     Nothing cancels imamate, we do not accept rising of imam, we should obey them and we should not curse them, we still have to pray for their goodness nothing nullifies them no matter why?

8](References on request )

8](we as Shias objects this )we find a paradox in this because the imam should have been just and  knowledgeable as per ans no: 1 but 2^nd question says if it the other way round the imamate still doesn’t cancel .

3) How is imamate wajib?
3 opinions
1) ashari –> “ immat is wajib because we hear of it “

meaning immat wajib thru history –prophet of Islam dint tell  anyone about it  –there was disaster in and shock ways when prophet died that and then was the time a need was felt .

Q) We ask when was this need felt? Did prophet tell about this or did he appoint someone? Was prophet silent on this and why? Prophet who told each and every thing? Was it wajib or sunna ?

Ans - They said that immediately as soon as possible after that prophet death that prophet body could not be waited to wash.

Now if it was sunna you could have waited for atleast for prophets body to wash?  If it was wajib then please any hades or ayat of quran ? That says it?

Let me make it simply -u are left was 3 option?

35]1) Prophet of god appoints some one!

35]2) He wasn’t silent but he said ” I don’t want to appoint someone”

35]3) He dint say anything

8]1) If prophet of Islam dint want anyone to be there then it’s an innovation?

8]2) There is no hades saying I don’t want to?

8]3) He must have said because there was a need?

8]If it was wajib ? How can u say prophet of god neglects something that was wajib ?

How is imamate wajib?

Motazalis – they say yes it is -it’s because of reasoning not history?

IF its ur (motazalis) reasoning then imamt was wajib that means you are determent that’s you could not prophet? if you say wajib on reasoning of prophet of Islam then how could prophet miss it ?

8]                                       Do you want ask us(the shia) why ?