50 replies to this topic

[Goku]

I was browsing some sunni hadiths and found this,

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Narrated Sahl bin Sa'd: Allah's Apostle went to fatima's house but did not find 'Ali there. So he asked, "Where is your cousin?" She replied, "There was something between us and he got angry with me and went out. He did not sleep (mid-day nap) in the house." Allah's Apostle asked a person to look for him. That person came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! He (Ali) is sleeping in the mosque." Allah's Apostle went there and 'Ali was lying. His upper body cover had fallen down to one side of his body and he was covered with dust. Allah's Apostle started cleaning the dust from him saying: "Get up! O Aba Turab. Get up! O Aba Turab (literally means: O father of dust).  (Book #8, Hadith #432)

Does this also mean Fatima was angry with Ali ? I know Sunnis acknowledge that whomever angers Fatima angers the prophet, so why would Ali , who knows the Prophet (saw) better than anyone, be angry with Fatima if it could mean she could be angry with him and thus Muhammad (saw) being angry with Ali ?

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Narrated 'Ali bin Abi Talib One night Allah's Apostle came to me and fatima, the daughter of the Prophet and asked, "Won't you pray (at night)?" I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Our souls are in the hands of Allah and if He wants us to get up He will make us get up." When I said that, he left us without saying anything and I heard that he was hitting his thigh and saying, "But man is more quarrelsome than anything." (18.54)  (Book #21, Hadith #227)

Ali and Fatima not praying?!?! Who would accuse them of such a thing? Was the Prophet (saw) angry with Fatima and Ali ?

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Narrated Abu Huraira Ad-Dausi: Once the Prophet went out during the day. Neither did he talk to me nor I to him till he reached the market of Bani Qainuqa and then he sat in the compound of fatima's house and asked about the small boy (his grandson Al-Hasan) but fatima kept the boy in for a while. I thought she was either changing his clothes or giving the boy a bath. After a while the boy came out running and the Prophet embraced and kissed him and then said, 'O Allah! Love him, and love whoever loves him.'  (Book #34, Hadith#333)

But this hadith shows that Fatima and Ali love their son (obviosuly), thus Allah (swt) loves Ali and Fatima ? Allah (swt) loves people who don't pray at night?

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Narrated Ibn Umar: Once the Prophet went to the house of fatima but did not enter it. 'Ali came and she told him about that. When 'All asked the Prophet about it, he said, "I saw a (multi-colored) decorated curtain on her door. I am not interested in worldly things." 'Ali went to fatima and told her about it. fatima said, "I am ready to dispense with it in the way he suggests." The Prophet ordered her to send it to such-and-such needy people. "  (Book #47, Hadith #783)

Allah  loves people with wordly-desires such as Fatima ??

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Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama: Allah's Apostle said, "fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry."  (Book #57, Hadith #61)

But is it not possible that Muhammad was angry with her for the decorated curtain or for not praying? Is Muhammad angry at himself ?

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Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet called his daughter fatima during his illness in which he died, and told her a secret whereupon she wept. Then he called her again and told her a secret whereupon she laughed. When I asked her about that, she replied, "The Prophet spoke to me in secret and informed me that he would die in the course of the illness during which he died, so I wept. He again spoke to me in secret and informed me that I would be the first of his family to follow him (after his death) and on that I laughed."  (Book #57, Hadith #62)

people with wordly-desires and do not pray at night will be one of the first to enter heaven?

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'Ali reported: I felt shy of asking about prostatic fluid from the Apostle (may peace be upon him) because offatimah. I, therefore, asked al-Miqdad (to ask on my behalf) and he asked. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Ablution is obligatory in such a case.  (Book #003, Hadith #0594)

Ali, who was raised in Muhammad's own home, and Fatima who is the Muhammad's daughter did not know the rulings of ablution? How is it not possible they are the most knowledgeable after Muhammad (saw) when they had Muhammad throughout their lives?

Edited by Goku, 06 July 2012 - 12:52 AM.

[Goku]

bump up.

[ÇáÔíÎ ÇáãÎÝí]

salam o alaikum

did you not read khasais ali ?

[Goku]

الشيخ المخفي, on 07 July 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

salam o alaikum

did you not read khasais ali ?

No, why?

[Dagga]

Status of Ali And Fatima to Sunnis?

Ali was of the greatest muslims and he was the fourth caliph of Islam, Assadullah, may Allah honour his face and be pleased with him.

Fatima was the daughter of the Prophet SAW and the wife of the fourth caliph Ali, may Allah be pleased with her.

Its funny when Shias want to criticize Sunnis they use hadiths of which almost every Sunni has never heard, but when Sunnis want to criticize Shias we can criticize their beliefs and practises directly.

[Rasul]

'May Allah be pleased with her/him' - Sunni ignorance

[Ibrahim786]

Dagga, on 11 July 2012 - 05:44 AM, said:

Status of Ali And Fatima to Sunnis?

Ali was of the greatest muslims and he was the fourth caliph of Islam, Assadullah, may Allah honour his face and be pleased with him.

Fatima was the daughter of the Prophet SAW and the wife of the fourth caliph Ali, may Allah be pleased with her.

Its funny when Shias want to criticize Sunnis they use hadiths of which almost every Sunni has never heard, but when Sunnis want to criticize Shias we can criticize their beliefs and practises directly.

As a sunni I would like to echo Dagga's post.

ali ra was an ashra mubashara sahabi, of the greatest muslims and no doubt the lion of Allah swt as well as being the fourth khalif of the muslims.

fatimah ra was one of the daughters of the prophet pbuh who will be the leader of the women in jannah.

I would advise Goku as I have advised my other shia brethern in the other topics not to get hung up on singular hadiths when you have no context of the incident as this could mislead you. If a narration in a sunni book bothers you - go and ask a sunni scholar

[Rasul]

Ali is first Khalifa stop being ignorant Sunnis

[Ibrahim786]

Rasul, on 11 July 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

Ali is first Khalifa stop being ignorant Sunnis

lol - I said he was the fourth khalifah of the muslims

[Rasul]

Ibrahim786, on 11 July 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

lol - I said he was the fourth khalifah of the muslims

Exactly that what ignorants claim

[Ibrahim786]

Rasul, on 11 July 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

Exactly that what ignorants claim

ok - after the death of the prophet pbuh there was a period of approx 24 years with no khalifah.hmmm....you and I know that was not the case.

so why not stop pretending and get it off your chest.... abu bakr ra, umar ra and uthman ra are your khalifas just like they were with ali ra, if they are not you know where you stand

[Rasul]

Ibrahim786, on 11 July 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

ok - after the death of the prophet pbuh there was a period of approx 24 years with no khalifah.hmmm....you and I know that was not the case.

so why not stop pretending and get it off your chest.... abu bakr ra, umar ra and uthman ra are your khalifas just like they were with ali ra, if they are not you know where you stand

There was not - Ali become directly 'Khalifa of Allah'

ثنا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ حَمَّادٍ ، عَنْ أَبِي عَوَانَةَ ، عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ سُلَيْمٍ أَبِي بَلْجٍ ، عَنْ عَمْرِو بْنِ مَيْمُونٍ ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ ، قَالَ : قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ لِعَلِيٍّ : " أَنْتَ مِنِّي بِمَنْزِلَةِ هَارُونَ مِنْ مُوسَى ، إِلا أَنَّكَ لَسْتَ نَبِيًّا ، إِنَّهُ لا يَنْبَغِي أَنْ أَذْهَبَ إِلا وَأَنْتَ خَلِيفَتِي فِي كُلِّ مُؤْمِنٍ مِنْ بَعْدِي

Narrated from Ibn Abbas: The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "You are to me like Harun in relation to Moses, the only difference is that there is no Prophet after me. And truly I ought to go only if you're my Caliph for every believer after me. "

Al-Sunnah by Ibn Abi Asim Vol 3, page 183

→ Zilalatil Jannah Fi Tahridzhis Sunnah by Albani page 519-520 Hadith Number # 1188

'Isnaad is valid and transmitters are reliable'

Edited by Rasul, 11 July 2012 - 10:26 AM.

[Dagga]

Rasul, Ali was the fourth caliph, build a bridge and get over it, if he was the first why did it take Muawiyah 24 years to stand up to him?

[Rasul]

Dagga, on 11 July 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Rasul, Ali was the fourth caliph, build a bridge and get over it,

Did you read Ahadeeth or you are playing dumb again?

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if he was the first why did it take Muawiyah 24 years to stand up to him?

It is because 'Material Khilafah' was usurped

[Goku]

None of you have addressed the Sahih hadeeths I posted which contradict one another....

Also, If Ali was the greatest Muslim as you people claim, why was he not the first caliph bur rather the last of the "4 rightly guided"? He was good enough to marry the woman who will be the leader in heaven but not good enough to be the first caliph? O_O?

[Dagga]

Goku, on 11 July 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

None of you have addressed the Sahih hadeeths I posted which contradict one another....

Also, If Ali was the greatest Muslim as you people claim, why was he not the first caliph bur rather the last of the "4 rightly guided"?

No one said he was the greatest Muslim, OF the greatest Muslims.

[Ibrahim786]

Goku, on 11 July 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

None of you have addressed the Sahih hadeeths I posted which contradict one another....

Also, If Ali was the greatest Muslim as you people claim, why was he not the first caliph bur rather the last of the "4 rightly guided"? He was good enough to marry the woman who will be the leader in heaven but not good enough to be the first caliph? O_O?

its very simple - although my advice to not get hung up on singular hadiths still stands.

ali ra and fatimah ra were absolutely amongst the best muslims but they were fallible whereas the prophet of Allah pbuh was infallible. hence there may have been an odd occasion where the prophet pbuh taught them things or reminded them just like he did with abu bakr ra or umar ra.

in terms of the fluid hadith - of course ali ra had his own house when married to fatimah ra - so him being rasied up in the house of the prophet pbuh will have no bearing on some issues which came up in Islam later in his life.

[Rasul]

Ibrahim786, on 12 July 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

its very simple - although my advice to not get hung up on singular hadiths still stands.

ali ra and fatimah ra were absolutely amongst the best muslims but they were fallible whereas the prophet of Allah pbuh was infallible. hence there may have been an odd occasion where the prophet pbuh taught them things or reminded them just like he did with abu bakr ra or umar ra.

They (Ahl al-Bayt ) were infallible and they claimed to be infallible -even Sunni Scholar talks about that and testifies to that - Why are you lying?

[Ibrahim786]

Rasul, on 12 July 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

They (Ahl al-Bayt ) were infallible and they claimed to be infallible -even Sunni Scholar talks about that and testifies to that - Why are you lying?

do you believe the ahlelbayt were equal to the prophet pbuh?

[Rasul]

Ibrahim786, on 12 July 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

do you believe the ahlelbayt were equal to the prophet pbuh?

Prophet is first -  then it is his Ahl al-Bayt - they are from him

[Ibrahim786]

Rasul, on 12 July 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

Prophet is first -  then it is his Ahl al-Bayt - they are from him

ok so what is the difference between the prophet pbuh and ahlelbayt?

[Rasul]

Ibrahim786, on 12 July 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

ok so what is the difference between the prophet pbuh and ahlelbayt?

Elaborate your question - What difference - do you want to know about?

Edited by Rasul, 12 July 2012 - 09:39 AM.

[Ibrahim786]

Rasul, on 12 July 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

Elaborate your question - What difference - do you want to know?

I presumed from your post that you meant the prophet pbuh was above the ahlalbayt. if so why and how was he above the ahlelbayt? was it down to the prophet pbuh receiving wahi, quran, gibrael as and the miraj?

Edited by Ibrahim786, 12 July 2012 - 09:42 AM.

[Rasul]

Ibrahim786, on 12 July 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

I presumed from your post that you meant the prophet pbuh was above the ahlalbayt. if so why and how was he above the ahlelbayt? was it down to the prophet pbuh receiving wahi, quran, gibrael as and the miraj?

Of course - Like if you didn't know? O_O

[Ibrahim786]

Rasul, on 12 July 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

Of course - Like if you didn't know? O_O

ok - so why cant the prophet pbuh remind them or advise whats best (as he was an example) when the ahlelbayt fell short of his pbuh standards?