16 replies to this topic

[omar111]

Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:
"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel"

Deuteronomy 18.18 clearly mentions that Mohd will come as a prophet,because Jesus does not even remotely resemble Moses.

Isaiah 53:7 talks about a lamb who never opened his mouth,This can never be the eloquent Jesus who even talked in cradle

Isaiah 53:3 cannot be the praised Jesus (Luke. 4:14-15, Matthew. 4:25)

Matthew 27:9 misquotes Jeremiah to suit Jesus

Although Christians will cry that these objections are put forward by atheists, but they have no answer to the objection that they falsified the OT to prophecies for Jesus.

http://faithskeptic..../prophecies.htm

References in OT are mostly vague to clearly name a person. These references are used by Muslims, Christians and even Jews to forward their ideology. But when Christians misquote OT in Mathews to prophesize Jesus,it questions the authenticity of Bible

[Leslie P]

omar111, on 05 July 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:


<snip>


References in OT are mostly vague to clearly name a person. These references are used by Muslims, Christians and even Jews to forward their ideology. But when Christians misquote OT in Mathews to prophesize Jesus,it questions the authenticity of Bible

'Deuteronomy 18.18 Jesus not a prophet'

One thing virtually all commentators, Christian and non-Christian agree on is that Jesus performed the role of a prophet. He offered criticism of Israel, challenging it to obey God in a renewed manner. He announced a time of imminent judgement and issued a summons to be of the Kingdom of God. Very much the role of a prophet (although Christians would say He was much more than that).


'Isaiah 53:7 the silent lamb'

This is a picture image, not a literal description (in any case, sheep do make a noise!). It's basically saying, 'A lamb goes to its death without protest, in much the same way as Jesus went to his death without protest.”


'Isaiah 53:3 cannot be the praised Jesus'

Why not? I can't see the problem.


'Matthew 27:9 misquotes Jeremiah to suit Jesus'

The full quote is helpful here:

7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”


This is a composite quote, from Zech. 11:12,13; Jer. 19:1-13; 32:6-9. The context in Matthew is about buying a field, which explains the Jeremiah reference (main point of the quote), with the Zechariah bit thrown in as an extra. The OT passages are near to references to the New Covenant.


I hope this is helpful.

[omar111]

Leslie P, on 08 July 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

'Deuteronomy 18.18 Jesus not a prophet'

One thing virtually all commentators, Christian and non-Christian agree on is that Jesus performed the role of a prophet. He offered criticism of Israel, challenging it to obey God in a renewed manner. He announced a time of imminent judgement and issued a summons to be of the Kingdom of God. Very much the role of a prophet (although Christians would say He was much more than that).

But did he resemble Moses?. He was a virgin birth and never a leader of a nation like Moses
'Isaiah 53:7 the silent lamb'

This is a picture image, not a literal description (in any case, sheep do make a noise!). It's basically saying, 'A lamb goes to its death without protest, in much the same way as Jesus went to his death without protest.”

Did Jesus go to slaughter without protest?
Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied.(Luke 22:35-38, NIV

18.21 Why askest thou me? ask them which heard me, what I have said unto them: behold, they know what I said.
18.22 And when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so?
23 Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me? John 18
'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'" Mark 15:34





'Isaiah 53:3 cannot be the praised Jesus'

Why not? I can't see the problem.


53:3 "Despised and rejected of men."
Bible portrays Jesus as
¹⁴ Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. ¹⁵ He was teaching in their synagogues, and everyone praised him Luke 4



²⁵ Large crowds from Galilee, the Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him. Matthew 4



'Matthew 27:9 misquotes Jeremiah to suit Jesus'

The full quote is helpful here:

7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”


This is a composite quote, from Zech. 11:12,13; Jer. 19:1-13; 32:6-9. The context in Matthew is about buying a field, which explains the Jeremiah reference (main point of the quote), with the Zechariah bit thrown in as an extra. The OT passages are near to references to the New Covenant.



But that is my point that Matthew misquotes to prophesied Jesus. The verse clearly mention ~what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled`
Zechariah text (Syriac) has the word treasury instead of potter which only appears in Greek seputaginist.
So Mathew not only misquoted, he also mistranslated the passage. Mathew faked a prophecy.


I hope this is helpful.

[Son of Placid]

omar111, on 05 July 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:
"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel"

Deuteronomy 18.18 clearly mentions that Mohd will come as a prophet,because Jesus does not even remotely resemble Moses.

Were you looking for pictures?

• There are a number of ways in which Moses was like Jesus, but unlike Muhammad:
  
  • Moses had no known tomb, but died on Mount Nebo (Deut. 34:6).
    
  • Moses came out of Egypt at the Exodus, and Jesus went to Egypt as a baby and returned.
    
  • Moses was brought up by his mother as a nurse in Pharaoh's household, and Jesus was brought up by Mary, but Muhammad was an orphan. Moses was saved as a baby in the rushes; Jesus was saved when God told Joseph to take him to Egypt.
    
  • Moses was transfigured on Mt. Sinai (Exodus 34:29) and Jesus was transfigured in Matthew 17:1-6.
    
  • Moses offered to take the sins of Israel on himself in Exodus 32:30-32; Jesus was sacrificed for the sins of mankind.
  Even at this level of argument there are more points of similarity between Jesus and Moses than there are between Muhammad and Moses. Not only that, but some of the points where Jesus seems to be different from Moses only appear because the Moslems have not considered the whole of the life of Jesus. For example, Jesus was rejected by his people and has not been accepted by them yet. But the time will come when they will look on him whom they have pierced (Zech. 12:10) and God will cleanse them (Ezek. 36:26-31). Similarly, Jesus will become a national leader and will encounter his enemies in battle (Zech. 14:3).
  
• In Deuteronomy 18:18 God tells Moses to inform Israel that the prophet was to be from among their brethren, which means that he would have to be an Israelite. Moslems who dispute this assert that, as the Arabs are the brothers of the Jews, this refers to an Arab. However, there is no scriptural evidence to support this. The Arabs are never called the brethren of the Jews in the Bible. There are a few verses where Edom is described as the brother (singular) of Israel (e.g. Num. 20:14; Deut. 23:7; Amos 1:11), but the word brethren (plural) is never used. In any case, Muhammad is not a descendent of Edom (who joined the Jews in the second century BC), but of Ishmael, who is never referred to as the brother of Israel. The passage can only mean that the prophet like unto Moses was to be an Israelite.
  
• To list the similarities and differences between Jesus, Muhammad and Moses is a rather inconclusive and man-made way of looking at Deuteronomy 18. Rather than humans making lists of ways that Muhammad is, or is not, like Moses, it is better to let the passage itself say in what way the prophet will be like Moses. This is given us in the next two verses:
  "And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." (Deut. 18:21-22)
  The prophet would validate his message by some sign, either a miracle or a prediction of the future which he would predict or announce and which would then be fulfilled. There is no doubt that Jesus worked miracles; even the Qur'an admits this (e.g. Q 5:115). However, Muhammad never performed a miracle and the set of predictions claimed for him is singularly unimpressive (he is said to have predicted that his followers would win the battle of Badr - probably a method of encouraging them to fight more fiercely, and self fulfilling as one would never of heard of the prediction if the battle had been lost). The lack of signs from Muhammad is also commented upon in the Qur'an with words like: "They say: Why not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" (Q 10:20; see also Q 6:109; Q 13:7; Q 17:59; Q 21:5,6). There is only one reason that the Qur'an would record passages like these, and that is because Muhammad never gave a prophecy or performed a miracle.
  
• Moslems cannot have things both ways. Either the passage in Deuteronomy 18 is from God, in which case they must believe it and reject Muhammad because he does not fulfill scripture, or it is not from God, in which case they cannot claim it as a prediction of Muhammad.
  
• Deuteronomy 18:18 is cited in Acts 3:22. Here the apostle Peter, speaking words from God through the Holy Spirit, identifies the prophet like Moses as being Jesus Christ and not Muhammad.

Quote

Isaiah 53:7 talks about a lamb who never opened his mouth,This can never be the eloquent Jesus who even talked in cradle

This is just goofy. A lamb that never opens it's mouth never eats, therefore dies of starvation. Obviously not what the passage is referring to.


He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth; <-------The only part you chose to make a point.
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

Time, place, and context, think on these things. I know, it messes up your lame argument but some care about the real message.

Quote

Isaiah 53:3 cannot be the praised Jesus (Luke. 4:14-15, Matthew. 4:25)

I mentioned time, place and context already.

Quote

Matthew 27:9 misquotes Jeremiah to suit Jesus

Muslim misquotes both, sides with athiests, and fools ignorant Muslims.
I guess searching what others say rather than reading the word is more fun...

[omar111]

Tomb of Moses was discovered by the team of Austrian archaeologist Manfred Bietak in the ancient Israelite city of Avaris(Tela a Daba).But even if it is not the tomb of Moses, there must be a tomb of Moses somewhere. But Jesus never died and was never buried. So there can be no tomb of Jesus. Even if Christian believes that he died, they must admit that his tomb was empty.

Did Jesus go to Egypt?
[t]here is no remembrance in the accounts of the ministry of Jesus of such an extraordinary event in this background [the flight to Egypt and massacre at Bethlehem - ed.], and a journey to Egypt is quite irreconcilable with Luke’s account of an orderly and uneventful return from Bethehem to Nazareth shortly after the birth of the child. An attempt has been made to detect independent support for an Egyptian sojourn in the Jewish stories of the second century which have Jesus going to Egypt…However, these stories introduce Egypt as a place where Jesus or his mother sought refuge because of the scandalous (adulterous) character of his birth and as a place where he became adept in black magic which he then used to decieve people. Most likely this is a Jewish polemic against the Gospel picture of Jesus (including the Matthean infancy narrative) and can scarcely be invoked as independent support for the historicity of that picture.. Raymond E. Brown, The Birth Of The Messiah (Macmillan Publishers Ltd., 1997), p. 225-226
Jews are prohibited to enter Egypt in Deuteronomy 17 and there are objections on contradiction in math and Luke 2:22.

Both Mohd and Moses were not raised by natural parents. I can quote a Sunni perspective on resemblance of Abu talib and Pharaoh, but I will refrain from doing so.

Both Moses and Mohd spoke with God. There is no proof that Jesus ever spoke with god.

Moses never asked for Atonement as it is falsely translated by Christians. The word used is tis sa which means forgiveness. Moses begged forgiveness of God in exodus

There is scientific evidence that Jews and Arabs are brothers. http://www.scienceda...00509003653.htm

Sign of Prophet was the splitting of moon.
At Qamar
The hour drew nigh and the moon did rend asunder. (1)And if they see a sign they turn aside and say: Transient magic. (2)
http://shafaqna.com/...ntifically.html
http://www.nasa.gov/..._ariadaeus.html

Mathew wanted to prove that Jesus was prophesized in Old Testament. So he misquotes and mistranslates OT. This is not a response but an excuse for not answering the objections on Mathew. Christians get angry if I try to pass someone else words as mine but when Mathew passes Zachariah words, as Jeremiah, they remain silent. Hypocrites.

[Son of Placid]

omar111, on 10 July 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

There is no proof that Jesus ever spoke with god.

You have got to be joking, I mean throughout, this is just an example.

[omar111]

Son of Placid, on 10 July 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

You have got to be joking, I mean throughout, this is just an example.

If Jesus is God,Deut can’t be talking about him as it mentions a Prophet. If you consider Jesus a Prophet, prove that he  talked directly with  God like Mohd and Moses, not through angels or spirits.
2 Peter 1:20-21 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit

Edited by omar111, 10 July 2012 - 09:14 PM.

[placid]

Hi Omar,

Quote from Post 5:
[t]here is no remembrance in the accounts of the ministry of Jesus of such an extraordinary event in this background [the flight to Egypt and massacre at Bethlehem - ed.], and a journey to Egypt is quite irreconcilable with Luke’s account of an orderly and uneventful return from Bethehem to Nazareth shortly after the birth of the child.

Response: --- I would like to add a little to this statement.
Part of the story concerning Jesus is recorded in Luke 2:
21 On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived.
22 When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, (forty one days, Lev 12: 2-8) Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord
23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord.”)
24 and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: “a pair of doves or two young pigeons.”

39 When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth.

--- After her days of purification, they went from Jerusalem to Nazareth where they would see their families, --- but they didn’t necessarily stay there.
--- (There were the curious circumstances of this pregnancy and birth, as mentioned in the Quran, and they may not have felt really comfortable there.)
--- During their 4i days in Bethlehem, Joseph may have gotten a job to sustain them because he was a carpenter. --- Therefore, at some point they returned to Bethlehem.

Again in Luke 2, --- the shepherds saw the great light in the sky and came to the stable on the night of Jesus’ birth, --- but if this was the star that appeared to the wise men who followed it to Jerusalem, it would take some months, or a year for the wise men, or astrologers to came from the east to Jerusalem.

And they asked King Herod,  “Where is He who was born King of the Jews, for we have seen His star and have come to worship Him?”
After they went to Jerusalem the scribes had to search the Prophecies to see where the Christ was to be born. Finally they sent them to Bethlehem, where they found Him, and it says this:
11 And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

--- So He was no longer a baby but a ‘young Child,’ --- and they were living in a house.
King Herod had asked them to come back to Jerusalem after they had found Jesus so that he could come and worship Him, too. --- However Herod had no intention of worshiping Him but didn’t want another King in his Kingdom. (So it continues):
12 Then, being divinely warned in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed for their own country another way. --- That would take some more time before Herod would realize that they were not returning, so he made his move.

13 Now when they (the wise men) had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.”
14 When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt,
15 and was there until the death of Herod,
16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was deceived by the wise men, was exceedingly angry; and he sent forth and put to death all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its districts, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the wise men.

Notice that?
--- “According to the time which he had determined from the wise men.”
So it was perhaps a year and one half or more before they went to Egypt.

There  may have only been a few, --- 20 or so, boy babies in the town and area of that age, so it wasn’t a ‘great massacre’ as we hear about  in these days, --- but any killing of children causes their mothers to wail and lament. Matthew 2:18, Jeremiah 31:15.

--- I believe Herod died soon after that, but it may have been 2-3 years before they returned to Nazareth, their home town,

It continues in Matthew 2:
19 Now when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20 saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the young Child’s life are dead.”
21 Then he arose, took the young Child and His mother, and came into the land of Israel.

22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea instead of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. And being warned by God in a dream, he turned aside into the region of Galilee.
23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth.


Placid

[omar111]

Hi Placid,
Mathew wanted to create a Jewish messiah out of Jesus. So he misquoted and mistranslated OT. And He also invented stories to support his claim. Mathew knew that Deuteronomy promises a Prophet like Moses so he invented a story similar to the birth of Moses.
  Mathew claimed that Herod killed every child below two years in Bethlehem. But he forgot that we had an independent historian Josephus recording history for us. Josephus should have mentioned such a major event in history. He mentions that Herod was cruel and killed his own family so he Anti Herod and was not trying to please Romans.
  This story is a total invention of Mathew and not even supported by Luke and he was again misquoting a Biblical prophecy. In(2:16-18), quoting a prophecy of Jeremiah (31:15) which states that "A voice was heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children; and she refused to be comforted, because they were no more.”, he equates it with the fable of Herod killing children.   But Rachel here is not crying for dead but lost children as the next verse makes clear
16Thus says the LORD,
“Restrain your voice from weeping
And your eyes from tears;
For your work will be rewarded,” declares the LORD,
“And they will return from the land of the enemy

In 2; 23, he was misinformed that messiah will be called a Nazarene. So he changed the destination of the family from Bethlehem to Nazareth.  Matthew 2:23: ‘. . . and he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth; that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophets, that he should be called a Nazarene.’ But there is no Old Testament prophecy of this nature
Nazareth is not in Ot, Talmud`s 63 Galilean towns or in any ancient history.
Christian answer that Nazareth was a small hamlet. But it was certainly larger and well known. It had a synagogue and was known in John1:46
The problem with your interpretation is that you are assuming that the gospels were written at the same time, keeping the other gospel in mind. These gospels were independent account of Jesus, so if they don’t mention a thing, there must be another reason for that. As far as Gospel writer were concerned, they were not aware that all four would be ultimately compiled in a single collection. So Every Gospel writer was writing a complete narrative of Jesus. If Jesus went to Egypt, a gospel cannot fail to mention such a big fact. Killing of Children and flight to Egypt were important events in the life of Jesus, which could not by neglect by Luke, because Luke was a historian.
Mathew wanted to prove the ministry of Jesus to Jews and in his zeal; he invented many false stories, like infanticide, Nazarene and flight to Egypt. Mathew also forgot that Jews were prohibited from entering Egypt, so this flight was impossible.  
Jeremiah 42  “The Lord has said concerning you, O remnant of Judah, ‘Do not go to Egypt!’ Know certainly that I have admonished you this day. ²⁰ For you were hypocrites in your hearts when you sent me to the Lord your God, saying, ‘Pray for us to the Lordour God, and according to all that the Lord your God says, so declare to us and we will do it.’ ²¹ And I have this day declaredit to you, but you have not obeyed the voice of the Lord your God, or anything which He has sent you by me. ²² Now therefore, know certainly that you shall die by the sword, by famine, and by pestilence in the place where you desire to go to dwell.”

“This leads us to the observation that the two narratives are not only different—they are contrary to each other in a number of details. According to Luke 1:26 and 2:39 Mary lives in Nazareth, and so the census of Augustus is invoked to explain how the child was born in Bethlehem, away from home. In Matthew there is no hint of a coming to Bethlehem, for Joseph and Mary are in a house at Bethlehem where seemingly Jesus was born (2:11). The only journey that Matthew has to explain is why the family went to Nazareth when they came from Egypt instead of returning to their native Bethlehem(2:22-23). A second difficulty is that Luke tells us that the family returned peaceably to Nazareth after the birth at Bethlehem (2:22,39); this is irreconcilable with Matthew's implication (2:16) that the child was almost two years old when the family fled from Bethlehem to Egypt and even older when the family came back from Egypt and moved to Nazareth. Of the options mentioned before we made the detailed comparison of the two narratives, one must be ruled out, i.e., that both accounts are completely historical. [Brown, Birth of the Messiah, p.46]

[placid]

I am more interested in the fact that when Gabriel, who first spoke to both Zechariah, and then Mary, approved of everything written in the Torah and the Gospel. --- I guess he wouldn't have known the history, or he wouldn't have approved it, would he?

[omar111]

Mathew was written after the events of Zachariah and Mary, so this cannot be presented as the evidence of authenticity of Mathew.  Christians are embarrassed to own OT because it contains violent passages quite contrary to teaching of Christ. And when they find that Muhammad is prophesied in OT, they invent Prophecies in Mathew to prove Christ  to Jews

placid, on 17 July 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

I am more interested in the fact that when Gabriel, who first spoke to both Zechariah, and then Mary, approved of everything written in the Torah and the Gospel. --- I guess he wouldn't have known the history, or he wouldn't have approved it, would he?

[placid]

That is quite a concept.

Gabriel confirmed the former Scriptures, the Torah and the Gospel in Surah 3:3-4.

I don't know anyone who is ashamed of the OT, because the history of the NT and the Quran, so it is hard to separate, the actions in the OT from the history of mankind.

Jesus brought in the New Covenant so that is still in effect. No change. No diminishing of the power of the Holy Spirit to those who follow God as He called us to do.

[omar111]

name='placid' timestamp='1342653276' post='2442919']
That is quite a concept.

Gabriel confirmed the former Scriptures, the Torah and the Gospel in Surah 3:3-4.

I don't know anyone who is ashamed of the OT, because the history of the NT and the Quran, so it is hard to separate, the actions in the OT from the history of mankind.


نَزَّلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَأَنزَلَ التَّوْرَاةَ وَالْإِنجِيلَ
The word used is injeel.It is foolish to assume that gospels are injeel. Gospels are written by four unknown authors using pseudonyms to hide their identity. Scholars are not even sure about the order of gospels.  F. C. Bauer and later scholars had argued in favor of Matthew being the first gospel.
Even at the time of Paul, people were laughing at the misquoting of the prophecies so he warned
. Do not scoff at prophecies, . (1 Thessalonians 5:16)
http://thefactsabout...ibles-hand.html

[placid]

Hi Omar,

Quote from Post 13:
The word used is injeel.It is foolish to assume that gospels are injeel.

Response: --- In Surah 3 it uses the word Gospel in this verse:
48. “And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel,”

--- 7 out of the ten common translators use Gospel,
--- 1 uses the word Evangel, which also means ‘good news.’
Shakir uses Injeel: “And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel.”
Hilali Khan uses Injeel (Gospel): “And He (Allah) will teach him ['Iesa (Jesus)] the Book and wisdom, and the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).”

--- Notice that it was God who taught Jesus the Book (OT), wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel. --- There never was a book called the Injeel, because God revealed wisdom to Jesus through His intellect, did He not?

Then Jesus in turn taught all of the Gospel to the disciples. --- As in John 14:
25. “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”

--- Not only did Jesus teach them, but the coming Holy Spirit would bring to their memory all that He said to them.

And again before He left them He said this in His prayer to God, in John 17:
6. “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.
8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

[omar111]

Jesus could write.
And the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the midst, they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do you say?" And they were saying this, testing him, in order that they might have grounds for accusing him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground. But when they persisted in asking him, he straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And when they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and he was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the midst (John 8:3-9).
It would be astonishing that Jesus never wrote Injeel himself and left this to his disciple. Even then we are assuming that Gospel writers were his disciples. As they are unknown writers, these stories could be written by anyone. Some even think that John was Jesus himself.
To be sure, the Gospels are not among the literary masterpieces of antiquity. Their style, for example, is fairly rough overall (Mark is probably the worst, Luke the best). But it’s not easy to write a book, even for well-educated people today, in our highly literate and markedly literary world...

For someone to pull it off in antiquity required a good deal more than the average amount of literary training. And training of that kind required leisure time and money, since the vast majority of people had to work very long days. [...] In the end, it seems unlikely that the uneducated, lower-class, illiterate disciples of Jesus played the decisive role in the literary compositions that have come down through history under their names. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet. Bart D. Ehrman
With contradistinctions in the Bible and misquoting of OT prophecies, the gospels are not divine. We have a rule according the Bible. As of the Holy books, only Quran is preserved, we judge every book by it. If they confirm Quran, we say that these are the uncorrupted passages of the original teaching. An example is fasting and wadhu that was left preserved in Mathew
Matthew 6:16
16And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 17 But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face,

[placid]

Hi Omar,

Quote: In the end, it seems unlikely that the uneducated, lower-class, illiterate disciples of Jesus played the decisive role in the literary compositions that have come down through history under their names.


It was highly unlikely that God would choose someone illiterate to be the vessel through whom the Quran was revealed, was it not?
But Muhammad was faithful to God's call, and led a revival that brought the Arabs back to faith in One God.

God often chooses those who are unlikely to succeed, but they are better qualified because they know they have to rely on Him.

However, the Jews were well educated and had synagogues that gave formal education, as well as teaching the history and Law.

Something that Alexander the Great wanted to do was have a library that contained all the books that had been written to that time. --- He also had Greek taught in every country that he conquered, and that is why Greek became a common language to replace Hebrew and Aramaic.

Matthew (Levi) was a tax collector, and because he was a business man he was well educated and it is understood that he was the 'recorder' for Jesus, and no doubt wrote, even as Jesus spoke.

There are records that Matthew wrote 'The Sayings of Jesus' in Aramaic, which I believe to be the content of Matthew 5, 6, and 7,--- as they are called 'the sayings of Jesus,' as well as 'The Sermon on the Mount,'--- which would be distributed.
Then he wrote a Gospel in Aramaic, which would have been distributed, but also incorporated in his later Gospel in Greek.

I believe the Bible as it is written, even with it's discrepancies, because, like I said, The angel Gabriel in 625 AD confirmed it, and that should be sufficient.

I am also a non-Muslim believer of the revelations in the Quran.  

[omar111]

Notice that they mention a Gospel in translation and not Gospels.You believe in four gospels.
Papias says that Matthew wrote the Logia in theHebrew (Hebraidi) language; St. Irenæus and Eusebius maintain that he wrote his gospel for theHebrews in their national language, and the same assertion is found in several writers
. http://islam-qna.blo...nal-injeel.html


Mathew  or Levi in Mark 2:4
Mathew is based on a Greek translation of the hebrew Text.The Hebrew Text vanished.So even if you believe that Mathew was a disciple ,you believe in an unauthentic  greek translation of it. When all of this Bible is based on translation and no original text exists,so it is also possible that original injil also vanished.

Jerome along with many other church fathers believed Matthew first composed his gospel in Hebrew. tunlike many church fathers, he was not sure who had translated it. This comment must have been based on his perception of a lack of evidence from the earlier church fathers concerning who wrote the Greek Gospel of Matthew. However, there was evidence that Irenaeus, Origen and Eusebius clearly indicated at Matthew himself wrote it (See article entitled “Matthew’s Authorship of a Hebrew and Greek Gospel – ain Evidence”).

M.R. James commenting on Jerome’s change in perspective in his later years concerning the Hebrew Matthew writes, “In later years Jerome ceased to regard the Hebrew Gospel as the original Matthew.