31 replies to this topic

[Ibn Muhammad]

This is my first post on this site. I was praying today behind a Shia Imam, and into the prayer he was praying half sunni half shia... But all i want to know that if my prayer counted. He said Takbir while going into Ruku (Sunni), said the zikr quietly (Sunni) and said Salam the Sunni way. Please correct me if I made a mistake or anything. Thank You Brothers and Sisters.
Salam

[Goku]

Sallam Alykum,


According to Sayyed Sistani (ha):

Question : Can I say congregational prayer with my Sunni brothers? And can I lead prayers when I pray with them?

Answer : There is no objection in standing in a Sunni congregational prayer. However, the person should recite Hamd and Surah chapters on his own in the first two ‘Rak’ats’ – even if it has to be in low voice though. Also, it is permissible for him to lead them in prayer.

But is this a wahabi/salafi your praying behind?

[Ibn Muhammad]

No he is Shia but he is praying a bit like a Sunni, I head him say Ashhado ana Aliyan WaliyuAllah during Eqamah. But he prayed a bit like a Sunni, i never ealized this until after the prayer started

[Dar'ul_Islam]

Saying the adhkar or ruku and sujood out loud is not wajib for the imam, only recommended. Saying takbir while moving is incorrect but not something that affects the validity of the prayer. What do you mean by doing salaam the sunni way? As long as he said the tasleem before moving his head, then the prayers are in order.

في امان الله

Edited by Dar'ul_Islam, 04 July 2012 - 03:58 PM.

[Ali Musaaa :)]

As Sistani said, there is no objection to praying behind a Sunni Imam. My Masjid is 99.8% Sunni & I've never prayed behind a Shia in my life. Sometimes I've led them in Salah and there has been no problems.

You guys have raised the question of Takbir. I want to point out in Allamah Tabataba'is 'Sunnan An-Nabi' on page 179 of the FreeGift PDF version: http://www.al-mubin....Nabi - GIFT.pdf he mentions a Hadith that says the Prophet would raise his hands for every Takbir in Salah. But we only raise our hands for the first and 3x at the end when our Salah is finished.

Does anyone know if this Hadith is authentic or if this is the correct method of Salah? Our Sunni Brothers/Sisters pray like this, where they raise their hands for Takbir and not just at the start.

[89jghur32]

Ibn Muhammad, on 04 July 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

This is my first post on this site. I was praying today behind a Shia Imam, and into the prayer he was praying half sunni half shia... But all i want to know that if my prayer counted. He said Takbir while going into Ruku (Sunni), said the zikr quietly (Sunni) and said Salam the Sunni way. Please correct me if I made a mistake or anything. Thank You Brothers and Sisters.
Salam

None of the things you mention here are Sunni per-se.

[Dar'ul_Islam]

Ali Musaaa , on 04 July 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

As Sistani said, there is no objection to praying behind a Sunni Imam. My Masjid is 99.8% Sunni & I've never prayed behind a Shia in my life. Sometimes I've led them in Salah and there has been no problems.

You guys have raised the question of Takbir. I want to point out in Allamah Tabataba'is 'Sunnan An-Nabi' on page 179 of the FreeGift PDF version: http://www.al-mubin....%20-%20GIFT.pdf he mentions a Hadith that says the Prophet would raise his hands for every Takbir in Salah. But we only raise our hands for the first and 3x at the end when our Salah is finished.

Does anyone know if this Hadith is authentic or if this is the correct method of Salah? Our Sunni Brothers/Sisters pray like this, where they raise their hands for Takbir and not just at the start.

There is raising of the hands with /all/ takbeeraat of salaah. Ihraam, into ruku, sajda, between sajda, after sajda, before and after qunoot, etc etc. This is in the ahadeeth and shown in all maraaji's risalah. The fact that you don't see people do it is because the Sunnah has been abandoned, unfortunately.

في امان الله

[Haydar Husayn]

Ali Musaaa , on 04 July 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

As Sistani said, there is no objection to praying behind a Sunni Imam. My Masjid is 99.8% Sunni & I've never prayed behind a Shia in my life. Sometimes I've led them in Salah and there has been no problems.

You guys have raised the question of Takbir. I want to point out in Allamah Tabataba'is 'Sunnan An-Nabi' on page 179 of the FreeGift PDF version: http://www.al-mubin....%20-%20GIFT.pdf he mentions a Hadith that says the Prophet would raise his hands for every Takbir in Salah. But we only raise our hands for the first and 3x at the end when our Salah is finished.

Does anyone know if this Hadith is authentic or if this is the correct method of Salah? Our Sunni Brothers/Sisters pray like this, where they raise their hands for Takbir and not just at the start.

I've always raised my hands with every takbir. I never thought there was anything controversial about it.

[awaiting_for_the.12th]

Dar, on 04 July 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

Saying the adhkar or ruku and sujood out loud is not wajib for the imam, only recommended. Saying takbir while moving is incorrect but not something that affects the validity of the prayer. What do you mean by doing salaam the sunni way? As long as he said the tasleem before moving his head, then the prayers are in order.

في امان الله

Are you positive about that? As far as i have heard it does invalidate the prayer i am trying to find the arabic term for what that is called.

[Ali_Hussain]

Haydar Husayn, on 04 July 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

I've always raised my hands with every takbir. I never thought there was anything controversial about it.

I used to do that, but it doesn't seem from this narration that the Imam Ja'far (a) did it


1 – Muhammad b. `Ali b. al Husain (Shaykh al Saduq in al-Faqih) with his chains from Hammad b. `Isa, that he said: Abu `Abdillah said to me one day: Do you know how to pray, O Hammad? He said: I said: O my master! I comply with the Book of Hariz about prayer (therein is an account of Hariz for the preservation (?) of the Book and his narration and that is only for acting upon it, and the statements about that and its examples are more than can be enumerated, and parts of that will appear in the Book of Judgment etcetera – from it, certain differences (?) in the margin of the manuscript). He said: So he said: Worry not! Stand and pray. He said: So I stood in front of him, facing the Qiblah. Then I commenced the prayer and I bowed and I prostrated. So he said:  O Hammad! You do not know how to pray. How repulsive is it for a man (in the copy of al Kafi: بالرجل منكم – for a man among you) to have had sixty years or seventy years pass him by, and he has not established a single prayer with all its limits?! Hammad said: So abasement befell me within and I said: May I be sacrificed for you! Please teach me the prayer. So Abu `Abdillah stood facing the Qiblah, erect. Then he placed both his hands together on his thighs, his fingers joined together and he drew his feet near until they were three digits apart. And he turned, with all the toes of his feet together (in al Tahdheeb: جميعاً القبلة – in the margin of the manuscript), neither of his feet deflected from the Qiblah, with submissiveness and complete surrender (tranquility), and said: Allah is Greater (Allaahu Akbar)! Then he recited Surat al Hamd and Qul Huwa Allahu Ahad (Surat al Ikhlas) with the intonation (tarteel). Then he paused a little for a measure of one breath while he was standing. Then (in the Masdar, extra: رفع يديه حيال وجهه و- he raised his hands opposite his face and) he said: Allah is Greater (Allaahu Akbar), while he was standing. Then he bowed and spread his palms over the knees and pushed his knees backwards until his back was straight; were a drop of water or fat to be poured on him, it would not slide down due to the straightening of his back and the pushing (in the Masdar and the copy, in the margin of the manuscript: ورد) back of his knees, and he erected his neck (in the margin of the Asl: ومد في عنقه – and he stretched his neck) and looked down. Then he glorified thrice with tarteel and said: Allah listens to the one who praises Him (Sami`allaahu liman Hamidah). Then he recited the takbeer while he was standing and raised his hands opposite his face. And he prostrated and placed his hands on the ground prior to his knees and said: Purified (glorified) is my Lord, the Most High, and I praise Him (SubHaana rabbiya 'l-a`laa wa biHamdih), thrice, and he did not place (i.e. rest) anything (any part) of his body against anything from it. And he prostrated upon eight major (parts): the forehead and the palms and the kneecaps and the tips of the big toes of the feet and the nose; then these are seven, plenty (viz. seven are required). And the positioning of the nose over the earth is recommended. And it is (out of) compulsion (i.e., the nose is forced to rub the ground when the forehead is on the ground). Then he raised his head from prostration and when he was seated, he said: Allaahu Akbar! Then he sat on his left side and he placed the outside of his right foot over the inside of his left foot, and said: I seek forgiveness of Allah, my Lord and I turn towards (repent unto) Him (Astaghfirullaaha Rabbee wa atoobu ilayh). Then he recited the takbeer while he was seated and he prostrated a second time and said what he had said in the first and he did not resort to anything from his body against another from it either in the ruku` or the sujud, and he was winged (i.e., the placement of his hands appeared as if there were wings on either side) and he did not place his arms on the ground. Then he prayed the second rak`ah similarly, then said: O Hammad! Pray this way. And do not turn, nor play with your hands or your fingers and do not spit from your right nor (in the copy: ولا عن – nor from – in the margin of the manuscript) your left nor in front of you.

http://www.tashayyu....salat/chapter-1

Edited by Ali_Hussain, 04 July 2012 - 06:10 PM.

[Haydar Husayn]

That could simply indicate that it is not obligatory.

[Shia_Debater]

How far does one raise their hands when doing takbir when you stand after ruku before going into sujood?

[Ali_Hussain]

Haydar Husayn, on 04 July 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

That could simply indicate that it is not obligatory.

this the narration the brother is talking about from sunnan an-nabi.

"..it is not a sacrifice, rather He is commanding you that when you commence the prayer you should raise you hands as you recite the takbir, and (again) when you go into ruku', and when you raise your head from ruku', and when you go into sajah - for this is our prayer and the prayer of the angels in the angels in the seven heavens. Surely there is beautification for everything, and the beautification for salah is raising the hands with the recitation of every takbir."

majma al-bayan 10:550


This bit ("Surely there is beautification for everything, and the beautification for salah is raising the hands with the recitation of every takbir.") aside, it still doesn't seem like it is to be done after the sajdah

Edited by Ali_Hussain, 04 July 2012 - 06:31 PM.

[Ali Musaaa :)]

Dar, on 04 July 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

There is raising of the hands with /all/ takbeeraat of salaah. Ihraam, into ruku, sajda, between sajda, after sajda, before and after qunoot, etc etc. This is in the ahadeeth and shown in all maraaji's risalah. The fact that you don't see people do it is because the Sunnah has been abandoned, unfortunately.

في امان الله

Haydar Husayn, on 04 July 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

I've always raised my hands with every takbir. I never thought there was anything controversial about it.

Thanks so much Brothers. Yes, it's a real shame that the Sunnah is being neglected. I have another question though.

Brother Nader Zaveri posted a Hadith in his blog saying that in Salah when we finish we are to turn our heads to the right, slightly, when saying: "As salaam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh" & if we are in congregation and someone is sitting to our left, we turn slightly to our left & repeat the phrase. Then our Salah is complete. I had never heard of this before, so I asked Sistani's office and asked if that action was part of the Salah and the reply was that it wasn't.

Have anyone else heard of this before? Does anyone pray like this?

Here is the Hadith:

 وَ بِهَذَا الْإِسْنَادِ عَنِ ابْنِ مُسْكَانَ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ قَالَ قَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع إِذَا كُنْتَ فِي صَفٍّ فَسَلِّمْ تَسْلِيمَةً عَنْ يَمِينِكَ وَ تَسْلِيمَةً عَنْ يَسَارِكَ لِأَنَّ عَنْ يَسَارِكَ مَنْ يُسَلِّمُ عَلَيْكَ وَ إِذَا كُنْتَ إِمَاماً فَسَلِّمْ تَسْلِيمَةً وَ أَنْتَ مُسْتَقْبِلُ الْقِبْلَةِ
 He said: Aboo `Abdillaah said: If you are in a row, then do a tasleem from to your right and a tasleem to your left, for to your left is someone who is doing tasleem upon you.  And if you are an imam, then do a tasleem while you are facing qibla.

Source:
Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 3, pg. 338, hadeeth # 7

Grading:
Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH


And another:


 وَ عَنْهُ عَنْ صَفْوَانَ عَنْ مَنْصُورٍ قَالَ قَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع الْإِمَامُ يُسَلِّمُ وَاحِدَةً وَ مَنْ وَرَاءَهُ يُسَلِّمُ اثْنَتَيْنِ فَإِنْ لَمْ يَكُنْ عَنْ شِمَالِهِ أَحَدٌ سَلَّمَ وَاحِدَةً
He said:  Aboo `Abdillaah said: The imam does tasleem once and whoso is behind him does tasleem twice.  So if there is there no one to his left, he does tasleem once.

Source:
Al-Toosi, Tahdheeb Al-aHkaam, vol. 2, ch. 8, pg. 93, hadeeth # 114
Al-Toosi, Al-IstibSaar, vol. 1, ch. 199, pg. 346, hadeeth # 2

Grading:
Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH

Both narrations taken from here: http://www.revivinga...laah-bidah.html both Hadiths are towards the end of the post.

[Haydar Husayn]

Ali_Hussain, on 04 July 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

this the narration the brother is talking about from sunnan an-nabi.

"..it is not a sacrifice, rather He is commanding you that when you commence the prayer you should raise you hands as you recite the takbir, and (again) when you go into ruku', and when you raise your head from ruku', and when you go into sajah - for this is our prayer and the prayer of the angels in the angels in the seven heavens. Surely there is beautification for everything, and the beautification for salah is raising the hands with the recitation of every takbir."

majma al-bayan 10:550


This bit ("Surely there is beautification for everything, and the beautification for salah is raising the hands with the recitation of every takbir.") aside, it still doesn't seem like it is to be done after the sajdah

"He is commanding you that when you commence the prayer you should raise you hands as you recite the takbir, and (again) when you go into ruku', and when you raise your head from ruku', and when you go into sajdah"

What about the last bit?

Edited by Haydar Husayn, 04 July 2012 - 06:35 PM.

[Ali_Hussain]

Ali Musaaa , on 04 July 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

Thanks so much Brothers. Yes, it's a real shame that the Sunnah is being neglected. I have another question though.

Brother Nader Zaveri posted a Hadith in his blog saying that in Salah when we finish we are to turn our heads to the right, slightly, when saying: "As salaam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh" & if we are in congregation and someone is sitting to our left, we turn slightly to our left & repeat the phrase. Then our Salah is complete. I had never heard of this before, so I asked Sistani's office and asked if that action was part of the Salah and the reply was that it wasn't.

Have anyone else heard of this before? Does anyone pray like this?

yes, when you are praying alone, you 'look' (gesture with your eyes) to your right shoulder as you say "as salaamu alayna..."

Haydar Husayn, on 04 July 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

"He is commanding you that when you commence the prayer you should raise you hands as you recite the takbir, and (again) when you go into ruku', and when you raise your head from ruku', and when you go into sajdah"

What about the last bit?

yes, you raise your hands with takbir, then go into (the first) sajdah, the description of raising your hands ends there, but obviously, the hadith also says to raise your hand with every takbir

[Ali Musaaa :)]

Ali_Hussain, on 04 July 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

yes, when you are praying alone, you 'look' (gesture with your eyes) to your right shoulder as you say "as salaamu alayna..."

I messaged Nader & he said that we turn our face to the right when we say: Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh... But you say we are to merely look to the right with our eyes? Or did you mean we look with our eyes when we say the 2nd Salah after salams to the Prophet but before the above mention Salam?

[Ali_Hussain]

Ali Musaaa , on 04 July 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

I messaged Nader & he said that we turn our face to the right when we say: Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh... But you say we are to merely look to the right with our eyes? Or did you mean we look with our eyes when we say the 2nd Salah after salams to the Prophet but before the above mention Salam?

In the english translation of shara'i al-islam, it says that you face foreward when saying salaam to the Prophet (s), then gesture with your eyes to your right shoulder when you say "as salaamu alayna..." - and that ends the prayer (when praying alone)

If you are praying in congregation, you look to your right and say "as salaamu alayna..." and if there is someone on your left you look to your left and say "as salaamu alaykum..."

Edited by Ali_Hussain, 04 July 2012 - 06:51 PM.

[Ali Musaaa :)]

Ali_Hussain, on 04 July 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

In the english translation of shara'i al-islam, it says that you face foreward when saying salaam to the Prophet (s), then gesture with your eyes to your right shoulder when you say "as salaamu alayna..." - and that ends the prayer (when praying alone)

If you are praying in congregation, you look to your right and say "as salaamu alayna..." and if there is someone on your left you look to your left and say "as salaamu alaykum..."

Okay, so when praying alone we don't say "Asalaam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh"? The 2nd Salaam ends our Salah correct?

[Ali_Hussain]

Ali Musaaa , on 04 July 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Okay, so when praying alone we don't say "Asalaam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh"? The 2nd Salaam ends our Salah correct?

Well, the same book says it is mustahab to say it. (I tend not to, because there are narrations like this) - but for sure "as salaamu alayna..." takes you out of the prayer

3 – And by his isnad from al-Husayn b. Sa`id from Ibrahim al-Kharraz from `Abd al-Hamid b. `Awwad from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  He said: If you are leading a group a single taslima to your right suffices you.  And if you are with an imam then two taslima.  And if you are alone by yourself then a single one facing the qibla.

You should read through some narrations on it

http://www.tashayyu....aslim/chapter-2

Edited by Ali_Hussain, 04 July 2012 - 07:05 PM.

[Ali_Hussain]

Haydar Husayn, on 04 July 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

"He is commanding you that when you commence the prayer you should raise you hands as you recite the takbir, and (again) when you go into ruku', and when you raise your head from ruku', and when you go into sajdah"

What about the last bit?

Ali_Hussain, on 04 July 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

yes, you raise your hands with takbir, then go into (the first) sajdah, the description of raising your hands ends there, but obviously, the hadith also says to raise your hand with every takbir

I wasn't thinking, of course there is only one takbir after ruku, so the narration could be talking about doing it in sajdah, but it still isn't clear, there clearly isn't the raising of the hands with "every takbir", for example in the adhan you have your fingers to your ears throughout.

[Ali Musaaa :)]

Ali_Hussain, on 05 July 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

I wasn't thinking, of course there is only one takbir after ruku, so the narration could be talking about doing it in sajdah, but it still isn't clear, there clearly isn't the raising of the hands with "every takbir", for example in the adhan you have your fingers to your ears throughout.

I see. So as you said, the narration may be referring to the Takbir (raising hands with Takbir I should say) when sitting down comming up from Sajdah?

What about when we say Allahu Akbar as we rise or are we meant to stand and then Say Takbir raising our hands?

Brother which Marja do you follow? I follow Sistani, however, his website doesn't mention any of this stuff.

[Ali_Hussain]

Ali Musaaa , on 05 July 2012 - 05:40 AM, said:

I see. So as you said, the narration may be referring to the Takbir (raising hands with Takbir I should say) when sitting down comming up from Sajdah?

What about when we say Allahu Akbar as we rise or are we meant to stand and then Say Takbir raising our hands?

Brother which Marja do you follow? I follow Sistani, however, his website doesn't mention any of this stuff.

I would imagine if you take that narration to mean after every takbir, then it is after every takbir.

But exactly, if you do do takbir instead of saying 'bihawlillahi...' - whilst rising, how would you raise your hands?

I don't follow one scholar, I look at what two or three have to say. - but I will say this, no disrespect to any of them, but when they are wrong, they are wrong, the so called 'third shahada', I've also seen people post a fatwa saying it is recommended to sit with your back-side on your legs, and many other little things like that

Edited by Ali_Hussain, 05 July 2012 - 06:10 AM.

[Ali Musaaa :)]

Ali_Hussain, on 05 July 2012 - 05:58 AM, said:

I would imagine if you take that narration to mean after every takbir, then it is after every takbir.

But exactly, if you do do takbir instead of saying 'bihawlillahi...' - whilst rising, how would you raise your hands?

I don't follow one scholar, I look at what two or three have to say. - but I will say this, no disrespct to any of them, but when they are wrong, they are wrong, the so called 'third shahada', I've also seen people post a fatwa saying it is recommended to sit with your back-side on your legs, and many other little things like that

Yeah I agree Brother. I find follow Sistani's rulings mainly due to the fact that they are very easy to access in the English Language. I read in his book "Islamic Laws" that in the Adhan and Iqama it is mustahab to say what is know as the 3rd Shahada but I think he also says it will invalidate your Salah if you say it with the intention it is part of your Salah? If its Bid'a, it's Bid'a. So how can a Bid'a be mustahab?

What Scholars do you hold in high regard? What other Scholars should you recommend one looking into to see their opinions and rulings?

[Ali_Hussain]

Ali Musaaa , on 05 July 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

What Scholars do you hold in high regard? What other Scholars should you recommend one looking into to see their opinions and rulings?

Aside from sayed Sistani

I look at the fatawa of sayed al-hakeem

http://english.alhak...up.php?AllGroup

the late shaykh Lankarani

(his website is down now, but check it in a few days)

I also have a soft spot for sayed Fadlallah, maybe not so much for fiqh, though I do look to see what his take on it is,  but the bottom line is that he was one of the only scholars to have been a lover of pure tawheed. - though granted he did have some (very) strange fatawa

http://english.bayynat.org.lb/

Edited by Ali_Hussain, 05 July 2012 - 06:32 AM.