22 replies to this topic

[Noah107]

My wife tells me that back in her village in Pakistan, babies born with ambiguity regarding their gender are given to the circus or other transgender community!
Is this right? to bring a baby into this world then give it to an underground community who will exploit it ?
what is the position of hermaphrodites in Islam?  Can they marry?  please understand that hermaphrodites are not gays nor do they choose this body, mind or life but born this way by nature.
I have seen the underground community in pakistan. Its very sad. They beg to earn living.
this is a serious topic so be kind.

[_JuGNii]

Whats it with you and your WIFE man

[Noah107]

I like to discuss taboo topics and bring them to the forefront.
Islam should have an answer to this question. I want to know it.  if it isnt in the Quran, Hadiths then it needs to come from humanity.

[ImAli]

Did the doctor botch your operation?

[Haydar Karrar]

Even eunuchs and hermaphrodites are not exactly in half, if they resemble males more than females, they will be treated as males, and vice versa......but hijab and sexual matters do not apply to them in Islam.

(you might wanna double check this, I'm a little....well a lot rusty in these matters)

But of course it is Haraam for a man to castrate himself, like some subcontinental societies practice.

[ImAli]

Didn't they used to castrate slaves?

[awaiting_for_the.12th]

It depends on the hermaphrodite. BTW the term to use is intersex. It depends if they are women or men genetically (look for chromosomes) and do the correction surgery and marry the opposite gender. I believe this responsibility falls on community to take care of them.

[Haydar Karrar]

In the subcontinent people did and still do castrate themselves.....it's and ancient Hindu ritual where they then go and offer themselves as wives to one of their warrior gods for one night once a year....others men do it to escape family life or some [Edited Out] that they can't put up with, so they find and irreversible, crazy solution....castration.

And almost every empire did castrate slaves when they started having too many.

[Noah107]

awaiting_for_the.12th, on 03 July 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

It depends on the hermaphrodite. BTW the term to use is intersex. It depends if they are women or men genetically (look for chromosomes) and do the correction surgery and marry the opposite gender. I believe this responsibility falls on community to take care of them.

rightly put!

it depends on the y and x chromezone. if a hermaphrdite has xx then she is a female and if she has XY then he is a male. but in both cases her genitals will be ambiguious  ! they did operations in the 70' s by just looking at genitals and looking to see which gender they MOSTLY represented then a gender would be assigned wrongly. ie the miniscule male member be castrated to make the hermaphrodite a girl or vice versa. nowdays doctors in the west check the chromozones and then assign a gender and do corrective genital surgery but  this topic is mostly about the poor countries where hermaphrodites are exploited and cast underground.

in italy they castrated male boys opera singers so that  they would not break their voice but remain with a boys voice throughout life.
its a terrible life.
enuchs were used throughout eastern history to protect the virgins/concubines in sultans Harems....  these intersex people  were exploited throughout history.

[~Zee Zee~]

ImAli, on 03 July 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

Did the doctor botch your operation?

[Noah107]

ImAli, on 03 July 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

You read me like a book ImAli's Shadow/ ImaAli/ Lebaenese Princess  (My word! how many alias do you have on here lol ?). Your concern is most appreciated my dear
My operation went well thankgod. Wifey was very sympathetic and spoilt me rotten. Her brother bought me a joke cake made for this highly embarassing day lol.
Stayed in bed 2 days too but it was worth it.
Now I will be able to go to Hajj and do tawaf at some point thankgod.

[Maryammm]

Noah107, on 10 July 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

You read me like a book ImAli's Shadow/ ImaAli/ Lebaenese Princess  (My word! how many alias do you have on here lol ?). Your concern is most appreciated my dear
My operation went well thankgod. Wifey was very sympathetic and spoilt me rotten. Her brother bought me a joke cake made for this highly embarassing day lol.
Stayed in bed 2 days too but it was worth it.
Now I will be able to go to Hajj and do tawaf at some point thankgod.

Wow tmi... lol

[Noah107]

Maryammm, on 10 July 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

Wow tmi... lol

Maryammm,  dont be surprised.   I am a catholic revert to Islam. had my circumcision 2 weeks ago.
Imali  was simply making a joke about it getting botched up lol

[ImAli]

Noah107, on 10 July 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

You read me like a book ImAli's Shadow/ ImaAli/ Lebaenese Princess  (My word! how many alias do you have on here lol ?). Your concern is most appreciated my dear

[covertiman]

This is truly an interesting question. Unlike homosexuality, this is definitely not a nature v nurtur debate. Have any Muslim scholars addressed this issue?

[Noah107]

covertiman, on 10 July 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

This is truly an interesting question. Unlike homosexuality, this is definitely not a nature v nurtur debate. Have any Muslim scholars addressed this issue?

None of the scholars or admin on shiachat have addressed this issue!!  there should be some hadiths on it!   afterall these underground community has been around for a centuries!
I dont think people like to address taboo subjects even if they need answering!

[covertiman]

Noah107, on 11 July 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

None of the scholars or admin on shiachat have addressed this issue!!  there should be some hadiths on it!   afterall these underground community has been around for a centuries!
I dont think people like to address taboo subjects even if they need answering!

The admins on SC don't have to address this issue, however, scholars have a responsibility to enlighten Muslims. Like you said, this issue has been around for centuries. I'm going to try and submit a question on Ayatollah Sistani's website.

[Noah107]

covertiman, on 11 July 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

I'm going to try and submit a question on Ayatollah Sistani's website.

What a delightful idea brother covertiman.
please be sure to post the response on here.

[Qa'im]

Hermaphrodites are still male and female, despite having both genitals. I recall hadiths which indicate that the gender of a hermaphrodite is determined based on what genitals he urinates from. The "other" genitals are usually deformed. They are not to be exploited, they are to be identified and assisted.

[Noah107]

Qa, on 11 July 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

Hermaphrodites are still male and female, despite having both genitals. I recall hadiths which indicate that the gender of a hermaphrodite is determined based on what genitals he urinates from. The "other" genitals are usually deformed. They are not to be exploited, they are to be identified and assisted.

MashAllah brother. Im very impressed with your answer. Nowadays  they do a gene test to determine xx female or xy male chromozone and then assign a gender and then to reconstructive surgery to make the genitals look like either male or female.

Edited by Noah107, 11 July 2012 - 03:01 PM.

[Ruq]

most inter sex people end up choosing a gender though i think. But there do seem to be people who dont identify with either gender: the '3rd gender'. If their bodies are ambiguous and they dont identify with either gender it does makes things kind of difficult.

[Noah107]

~Ruqaya, on 11 July 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

most inter sex people end up choosing a gender though i think. But there do seem to be people who dont identify with either gender: the '3rd gender'. If their bodies are ambiguous and they dont identify with either gender it does makes things kind of difficult.

But I would like to know Islamic ruling on it!   how can these naturally ambigious sexes just stay as they are! to be given up at birth, sold into slavery,  run underground!  forced to resort to prostitution, never to marry, to be sexually exploited.
What kind of life is this!  I am talking about born hermaphrodites- not ones who chose to change their sex surgically because clearly that is another matter.

[Abu Hadi]

Salam,

The issue has already been dealt with, at least by some scholars. Imam Khomeni(ra) said that once they reach the age of maturity (balagh), they should be allowed to choose their gender. Once they make the choice, surgery and hormone replacement therapy is done (in Iran anyway) so that they make the transition to one or the other. These are the cases where both the male and female reproductive anatomy is fully or almost fully developed. There are other marginal cases where they are obviously one gender but have some remnants of the other gender. In this case the remnants are removed and the hormone levels are adjusted. After necessary surgery and hormones, they are considered Islamically to be the gender that they chose and are treated as such in society and also in Sharia. Because some ulema choose not to deal with this issue doesn't mean none of them have.

There was a story about this a few years ago on CNN. The CNN reporter actually said she admired the Iranian system for dealing with this issue and that it seemed more fair and balanced to her vs. systems used in other countries. She wasn't on the air on CNN for much longer after that. Jee, I wonder why ?

Edited by Abu Hadi, 11 July 2012 - 07:01 PM.