50 replies to this topic

[Aarash_Australia]

shadow of light, your causality is all wrong.

Under the Pahlavis, there were many foreigners in Iran, and they actually recieved preferential treatment under the law. (remember, that was one of Khomeini's complaints, that Americans were not subject to Iranian law)

Now, foreigners are discriminated against under the law (not allowed to own land, start businesses, own a car, get a regular bank account - not to mention the mass legal discrimination against Afghans).

[570]

macisaac, on 07 July 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

From what I've seen Iran is just a very insular country without much of a clear idea of what the outside world is like. We used to joke how we could have said pretty much anything about where our countries were located and people might've believed us, or how to explain where anything else in the world was we could just say it's past Mashhad.

[Aarash_Australia]

shadow_of_light, on 08 July 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

I have never denied the discrimination against Afghans.

As to Pahlavi, I believe in what I said because there was no Aryanism before the establishment of this dynasty. Of course, I believe that this is one of the main reasons of racism not the only reason.

As to owning lands and having a bank account, I have already replied you but as to owning a car or starting a business, I dont have any information.

Yes, so you either agree with discriminating against foreigners or you deny it exists.



As to Aryanism - it existed long before the Pahlavis.

It goes back to Cyrus himself - and official Sassanian propaganda, the Shu'ubiyya movement, Safavid Persian and Shia supremacism, Persian-Turkomen raiding parties and skirmishes in Khorasan being given ethnic and religious justification, etc.

Persians have always been a proud people.

[Marbles]

shadow_of_light, on 09 July 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

I sometimes agree and sometimes dont agree with it. For example, if we dont allow Afghan children to go to school, yes it is a discrimination (here, some people may argue that it is not a discrimination against illegal immigrants). But as to owning lands, it is not a discrimination (I have told you the reason).

Aryanism is a concept introduced by Hitler and Nazism. In Iran, in the past centuries, many people didnt know what "Arya" is and they didnt know "Cyrus". You can find the names of different kings in the poems of Hafiz, Nezami, Sa'di, Ferdosi, etc, but can you find the name of Cyrus in their poems? Even if you can, there is hardly any reference to him.

Shu'ubiyya actually was founded in order to fight Pan-Arabism. I dont deny that some Iranians might be rasict before establishment of Pahlavi dynasty, but certainly racism didnt exist as much as it exists today. In the past, people were more religious and consequently, less racist. Many scholars and scientists also used to write their books in Arabic (maybe because they wanted Arab scholars to be able to read their books).

I dont think that Safavis were racist, they were anti sunnies. I also think this anti-sunnism tendency was a result of anti-shiism which existed in the previous dynasties and in Othmani empire. Well, extremism brings extremism.

P.S: I am not a pro-safavism.

Yes, discrimination, bigotry and superiority complex has always existed in a dominant, imperial society. Persia is no exception. But the type of racism current in Iran today is a product of the modern times, Aryanism included.

[Aarash_Australia]

shadow_of_light, on 09 July 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

I sometimes agree and sometimes dont agree with it. For example, if we dont allow Afghan children to go to school, yes it is a discrimination (here, some people may argue that it is not a discrimination against illegal immigrants). But as to owning lands, it is not a discrimination (I have told you the reason).

Aryanism is a concept introduced by Hitler and Nazism. In Iran, in the past centuries, many people didnt know what "Arya" is and they didnt know "Cyrus". You can find the names of different kings in the poems of Hafiz, Nezami, Sa'di, Ferdosi, etc, but can you find the name of Cyrus in their poems? Even if you can, there is hardly any reference to him.

Shu'ubiyya actually was founded in order to fight Pan-Arabism. I dont deny that some Iranians might be rasict before establishment of Pahlavi dynasty, but certainly racism didnt exist as much as it exists today. In the past, people were more religious and consequently, less racist. Many scholars and scientists also used to write their books in Arabic (maybe because they wanted Arab scholars to be able to read their books).

I dont think that Safavis were racist, they were anti sunnies. I also think this anti-sunnism tendency was a result of anti-shiism which existed in the previous dynasties and in Othmani empire. Well, extremism brings extremism.

P.S: I am not a pro-safavism.

You have a tendency to "explain away" things without being aware of the facts.

Look up the logical fallacies "reductio ad absurdum" and "straw man", and keep them in mind for the future.



You say "In the past, people were more religious and consequently, less racist."

Nothing could be further from the truth.

In the past, Persians and Turcoman would raid each other's villages and steal women as slave girls - and justify it in the name of religion. Until very recently, the look-out towers constructed by the Safavids would be referred to as "Turcoman Towers".

Even tribes would consider their raids against each other religiously-sanctioned because they belonged to separate Sufi orders (Haydari, etc).

If anything, Reza Shah reduced intra-Iranian racism by promotion Iranian nationalism (while encouraging anti-Arab sentiment by appeals to history)

[Ugly Jinn]

I have a relative who is a major supporter of Iran/Khomeini, actually he is a fanatic. He literally has huge pictures of Khomeini and Khamanei in his living room, Iranian flags everywhere, artifacts, books, etc. Basically, it feels like your in an IRI museum.

The irony is that his visa got rejected numerous times to visit Iran because he is a US citizen (he was born in US). He also hates US, and wanted to move with his family to Iran, or atleast have a base there (buy a house, etc).

I thought it was pretty funny and proves how insecure Iran is. The worst part is that he is rich, he would've spent money in Iran to buy a house, clothes, car, etc., that would benefit the economy. There are many like him who aren't getting visas.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 09 July 2012 - 06:43 PM.

[Marbles]

A foreigner can buy property in Iran if it's above a certain threshold, provided he has local Irani guarantors (?). Don't know how it works though. This law is relatively new. Please elaborate if someone knows.

[Gypsy]

Are Persians as racist as the Arabs?

Persians are not the only people that behave that way. Even the Arabs are very racist. They look down on people who are working in their country legally. And it's worse if you are perceived as "brown-skinned".

And don't forget the racist tendency in some of the Islamic books. Don't they have some hadiths where all the black people in the world originates from a son of Noah that was cursed to be black. And also other hadiths.

[Marbles]

shadow_of_light, on 10 July 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

For example, as to owning lands, I told you the reason. It is a law in most countries.

It's the law in most  Middle Eastern countries.

So paranoid they are after the Zionist take over that they think a motley group of foreigners would end up occupying their countries if they allowed them to own property.

Gypsy, on 10 July 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

Are Persians as racist as the Arabs?

No less if not as much.

[Haydar Husayn]

Gypsy, on 10 July 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

And don't forget the racist tendency in some of the Islamic books. Don't they have some hadiths where all the black people in the world originates from a son of Noah that was cursed to be black. And also other hadiths.

I don't know whether hadiths on this actually exist or not, but if they do then they were originally taken from the Christian tradition. http://en.wikipedia....ki/Curse_of_Ham

[Cause]

shadow_of_light, on 10 July 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

For example, as to owning lands, I told you the reason. It is a law in most countries. If we allow foreigners to buy lands in our country, the same things happened in Palestine may happen here too.

With all due respect, but couldnt this problem be solved by limited ownership to one property? I think there is another reason behind the law

[Ugly Jinn]

UAE had the same issue but they came up with a freehold idea. Basically, there are certain 'freehold' areas which foreigners can own property. It has been very successful concept. Seems like a practical compromise. Keep certain areas for citizens and some areas for foreigners.

Iran should compromise and let outsiders pour money into the country.

[570]

Ugly Jinn, on 11 July 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

UAE had the same issue but they came up with a freehold idea. Basically, there are certain 'freehold' areas which foreigners can own property. It has been very successful concept. Seems like a practical compromise. Keep certain areas for citizens and some areas for foreigners.

Iran should compromise and let outsiders pour money into the country.

Iran already did that.
http://en.wikipedia...._economic_zones

[Marbles]

shadow_of_light, on 11 July 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

If a foreigner takes Iranian citizenship, he can buy lands.

As if the citizenship is on offer.

A Pakistani guy I know has been married to an Irooni and been living in Iran for 30 years. Still not eligible and won't ever be.

[Ugly Jinn]

570, on 11 July 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

Iran already did that.
http://en.wikipedia...._economic_zones

That has nothing to do with residential ownership.

shadow_of_light, on 11 July 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

If a foreigner takes Iranian citizenship, he can buy lands.

Errrr, obviously. We are speaking of non-citizens.

[570]

Ugly Jinn, on 11 July 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

That has nothing to do with residential ownership.




Errrr, obviously. We are speaking of non-citizens.

Then, what does 100% ownership stand for?

And after doing some googling, i found out that foreigners actually are possible to acquire property in Iran but it's not 100%

www.irantender.com/english/Document/Rights%20of%20Foreign%20Nationals.doc

[Ugly Jinn]

570, on 11 July 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

Then, what does 100% ownership stand for?

Ownership of business.

Quote

And after doing some googling, i found out that foreigners actually are possible to acquire property in Iran but it's not 100%

There you go.

[Arash_Kianfar]

Endless Emotion, on 05 July 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

In Faresi:
ياداوري اين مسائل منو ناراحت ميكنه   , چه برسه كه بخواهم در در مورد شون بنويسم ، در ضمن اين مسائل اصلا ارزش گفتن ندارند

I don't want to go into details 'cause even the reflection about what happened in my first study year does make me sad!
I just wish to erase those dark times in my life, and never think of them again.


Yupp! As I told you before, it's very different between cities!
People living in Qum and Mashad are very nice and supportive not like those maniac Tehranis.

Anyway, I have no idea about technical sciences but if anyone is interested in medical studies you can send an email to the international office department:

Email:: shabani@ut.ac.ir
Tel number:: 00989195551056

In my case I wanted to study in Qum, but when I sent my application for student loan to CSN ( Swedish financial aid) they didn't approve it.
They told me that just two Iranian universities are accepted in Europe ---- Tehran University of medical Sciences and Shahid Beheshti University (SBU). If I choose other universities they won't  grant me a student loan.
The cost of tuition for one medical year is 13 million toman.

W Salam

Endless Emotion, on 05 July 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

In Faresi:
ياداوري اين مسائل منو ناراحت ميكنه   , چه برسه كه بخواهم در در مورد شون بنويسم ، در ضمن اين مسائل اصلا ارزش گفتن ندارند

I don't want to go into details 'cause even the reflection about what happened in my first study year does make me sad!
I just wish to erase those dark times in my life, and never think of them again.


Yupp! As I told you before, it's very different between cities!
People living in Qum and Mashad are very nice and supportive not like those maniac Tehranis.

Anyway, I have no idea about technical sciences but if anyone is interested in medical studies you can send an email to the international office department:

Email:: shabani@ut.ac.ir
Tel number:: 00989195551056

In my case I wanted to study in Qum, but when I sent my application for student loan to CSN ( Swedish financial aid) they didn't approve it.
They told me that just two Iranian universities are accepted in Europe ---- Tehran University of medical Sciences and Shahid Beheshti University (SBU). If I choose other universities they won't  grant me a student loan.
The cost of tuition for one medical year is 13 million toman.

W Salam

really sad to hear that from u, cause iranian people are famous for being hospitabale to strangers (especially girls...   just kidding), but believe me it's not any comparable to other countries. i mean the people are not that racist as they are in london, or in US or even in Sweden.
i had bad experiences living abroad both a muslim and as an iranian.
they call us terrorist on no grounds and humiliate us for supporting hizbullah or hamas or whatever. they say u dont have the right to be here.

firstly, harrassment is problem that exist every where and i think in some european capitals it is worse than here. secondly this problem is not limited to foreign girls, some iranian girls have been the victim of harrassment, molesting or abusing.

consider this http://en.wikipedia....Rape_statistics

[ShiaBen]

I think this thread needs to get back on topic. Just answer the operator's question.

I feel like some people in here have an agenda and want to prevent people from studying in Iran.

If expense is an issue that's understandable, but if the issue is in regards to studying abroad in Tehran or anywhere in Iran is about racism "lol" to that.

Edited by ShiaBen, 15 July 2012 - 08:57 PM.

[The Canuck]

Quote

mac isaac:  That part I have to disagree with. It can be a real shock for black people from the West and Africa to come and live in Iran and to deal with the in your face, overt racism of the place when it comes to how Iranians often treat blacks. From getting taunted in the street, strangers calling you out as "siyah poost", to even violence, it's all there to a level which makes the US look like a racially enlightened paradise in comparison. And I'm talking about Qum here, the one place you'd hope that should be above such attitudes. It's not so shocking though when you realize that as late as the 1980s, Iranian TV would still broadcast blackface comedy (until it was finally banned, though of course you still have the blackface hajji firuz in the meanwhile).

This is quite the contrary actually.  From my experiences Iranians are probably the most black-friendly, they seem to kind of like black people.  They have streets named after famous Africans in Iran.  Also, culturally there isn't a bad stigma or stereotype against black people at all.  The term "siyah poost" is not deragatory either, if you know Farsi you would know that.  Not just by language but culturally it has no negative meaning.  Actually in the middle east, Iran's probably the least racist against blacks.

However, Iran is a very diverse place too...they do have an ignorant prejudice/racist behaviour that just seems to be like some kind of ignorance they're used to.  If you're Iranian you could relate to it, but basically people could be prejudice to somebody from the next town.  But it's never taken seriously, it's just some weird accepted norm.  To a westerner or somebody from outside of Iran, it would be perceived as racist or outrageous, but to Iranians they wouldn't even give it a second thought.  This is not to say that some black people may have legitmate racist reactions to them in Iran.  But i'm just saying, from my experiences, in general Iranians (vast majority - there's racist ppl and bad apples everywhere of course) are not racist towards black people at all.

And by the way Hajji firuz being black has nothing to do with racism.  In fact, he's the character that brings people happiness and cheers everyone up, that everyone likes.  So that would be counter-arguing your case there.

ws.

[Aarash_Australia]

Mujahid, on 16 July 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

This is quite the contrary actually.  From my experiences Iranians are probably the most black-friendly, they seem to kind of like black people.  They have streets named after famous Africans in Iran.  Also, culturally there isn't a bad stigma or stereotype against black people at all.  The term "siyah poost" is not deragatory either, if you know Farsi you would know that.  Not just by language but culturally it has no negative meaning.  Actually in the middle east, Iran's probably the least racist against blacks.

However, Iran is a very diverse place too...they do have an ignorant prejudice/racist behaviour that just seems to be like some kind of ignorance they're used to.  If you're Iranian you could relate to it, but basically people could be prejudice to somebody from the next town.  But it's never taken seriously, it's just some weird accepted norm.  To a westerner or somebody from outside of Iran, it would be perceived as racist or outrageous, but to Iranians they wouldn't even give it a second thought.  This is not to say that some black people may have legitmate racist reactions to them in Iran.  But i'm just saying, from my experiences, in general Iranians (vast majority - there's racist ppl and bad apples everywhere of course) are not racist towards black people at all.

And by the way Hajji firuz being black has nothing to do with racism.  In fact, he's the character that brings people happiness and cheers everyone up, that everyone likes.  So that would be counter-arguing your case there.

ws.

Simply wrong.

But you are correct in saying they are not as racist as Arabs are towards African people.

[The Canuck]

^Really, so how do you know that my experiences are wrong?   I based my opinion on a quite large number of Iranian people that I've interacted with, and I'm Iranian myself.

[ShiaBen]

Iranians racist against black people LMAO!

Which is why I've seen at least more than 20 intermarriages/relationships involving a person of some kind of African extraction and an Iranian, be it man or woman.

[titumir]

Aarash_Israel hasn't even had been to Iran until recently. He cannot speak Persian. Yet he behaves as though he is an expert on Iranians and their various biases.

[taqvi5]

https://sites.google...ite/noorulbaqi/
need ur advice