7 replies to this topic

[medster10001]

Assalamo alykum wa rahmatullaha wa barakato

Salaams to all on shiachat. Long time member and this is only my second post in about four years. I have a question about a story ive heard concerning Imam Jafar as Sadiq and a hindu doctor. I'm sure youre all already familiar with this story so I'm not gonna post it again because it can be found right here on shiachat already anyways. The part of the story that concerns me is where the Imam supposedly says that the kidneys are bean shaped so that sperm can pass through them and then he says that sperm comes from the backbone. As im sure most of you know this is an argument that has already been refuted concerning the verses from the holy quran that state that we are created from a fluide eminating from between the backbone and the ribs. I believe that the refutation was that the word in the quran thats translated as backbone actually is referring to reproductive organs and im wondering if thats the same issue here in this story. However, this still dosent explain why the Imam(as) would say that sperm passes through the kidneys when it isnt true and is apparently an ancient idea belonging to Hippocrates the greek scholar. I wanna know how accurate this story is and whether its been changed or added to throughout the years if possible. This issue with the embryology in the holy quran has been racking my brain for some time now and it seems like every time ive figured it out I find something that puts me back to square one. If anyone can help it would be much appreciated InshaAllah.

salaams

[Haydar Husayn]

An easy solution is simply that the hadith is fabricated. Many probably were in order to show the superhuman knowledge of the Imams . The only problem is those who fabricated them didn't foresee that one day those narrations would end up giving the opposite impression.

[medster10001]

This sounds like exactly what I was thinking of. Not even the quran uses any word related to kidneys for the travel of sperm so why would one of our imams. Does anyone have any other ideas and or suggestions?

[awaiting_for_the.12th]

Or more easy solution is to study anatomy:
sperm made in semineferous tubules (testes) travels to--> epidydmis-->vas deferens-->empties in urethra (comes from bladder<--ureter<--kidney).
As you can see both pathways (filtration and ejaculation) have a common exit.
So, if the hadith is true then Imam is right in the sense that he simplified it for his audience. Who probably were aware of major organs (kidneys, liver etc) rather then smaller details.
Looking at anatomy actually, vas deferens does travel between the two ureters (which are coming from kidneys). So, generally speaking Imam is right.
I am explaining this based on what you said, not on original hadith since i have not heard of this before. Imam could have said something compeltely different or hadith could be fabricated but this is how i see it.
Salam

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Quran Got it Right About Semen Production!

Some Christians claim that the Quran has a scientific error in it regarding sperm production
This is incorrect again. The critic focuses on the verses 86:6-7, especially verse 7 as this is where their contention is directed. The critic claims the Quran (86:7) is telling us that semen is produced between the backbone (sulb) and the ribs (tara’ib). The Arabic words mentioned by the Quran are sulb and tara’ib. Tara’ib is thought to mean ribs, though there is some dispute. However, the chief point of interest is the word sulb. Sulb  can be translated as ‘loins’ or ‘backbone’ or ‘lower back’. The critic favours the translations which use the word ‘backbone’ as they use it to attack the Quran by claiming the Quran teaches that semen is produced between the backbone (sulb) and the ribs (tara’ib).
However, the critic is very selective in deciding which translation to use as he/she avoids the numerous translations which translate ‘sulb’ as ‘loins’. They avoid these translations as they scupper their critical claims straight away as loins. Here, the word loins refers to:

a. The region of the hips, groin, and lower abdomen.
b. The reproductive organs. (1)
So the critic refrains from using this translation for the word sulb as it is clearly scientifically accurate, ie the semen is produced in the are between the loins and ribs. So, if we translate the Quran (86:7) this way there is no contention. The misleading methodology of the critic is to avoid mention of the numerous translations which translate the word sulb as loins. Not only do they avoid mentioning the numerous translations using the word ‘loins’ they highlight translations which use the word ‘backbone’. This is rather deceptive, especially considering a number of non-Muslim translators, including a Christian translator, translates it as ‘loins’ ( A.J Arberry, George Sale, J.M Rodwell and Henry E Palmer) as well as a number of Muslim translators who also use the word loins (Hamid S Aziz, Muhammad M Ghali, Muhammad M Pickthall and Mohammad Asad) (4). It is unscholarly as well as misleading on the part of the critic not to mention this important fact.
However, the critic does use Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s translation which translates it as ‘backbone’, therefore rendering a meaning of between the backbone and ribs. So the critic understands the Quran as teaching us that semen is produced between the backbone and ribs. In the way of intellectual honesty I do not want the reader to believe that only Abdullah Yusuf Ali translates this verse by using the word ‘backbone’, Shakir and Khan/Hilali also do this. The question still remains; which word should be used in the translation?
Well, the critic does not tell you that Dr Edward William Lane’s Lexicon indicates the word sulb’ to mean ‘loins’ and even refers to the verse in question (86:7) as referring to the ‘loins’. So it does seem that the more accurate translation of this would be “between the loins and the ribs” as opposed to “between the backbone and the ribs” (4). Hence the critic uses the weaker translation.
However, even if we assume the critic to be correct and take the translation; “between the backbone and the ribs” we still see no scientific error. The critic assumes that the ejaculate (semen) emanates from the testes, this is incorrect.  Sperm is produced in the testes and is then transfered to the seminal vesicles awaiting ejaculation, the=is accounts for 5 % of the ejaculate, the rest of the ejaculate comes from the seminal vesicles (46-80%),with the prostate gland and the bulbourethral and urethral glands producing the rest of the ejaculate (2). At the time of ejaculation, all this (semen, which contains the sperm) is released
From the seminal vesicles which are in fact between the backbone (coccyx, lower back) and the ribs! So if we run with the translation of the critics we see something that people would describe as a scientific miracle and not a scientific error.

People refuse Quranic verses too,bringing in scientific reasons,so you will say Quran is also fabricated,?(nauzbillah)you can read in this article,how non Muslims try to reject these verses as well.So might be this Hadees is not well understood,or might be Science has yet to reach further conclusions in this matter,you can't outrightly reject it.

[hameedeh]

We have not fully comprehended everything in medical science. Scientists may find in the future that something (a hormone, enzyme, secretion, etc) does create a relationship between the kidneys and sperm. Although many of us would be inclined to think that the hadith was fabricated, we should be cautious. Some people believe and refer to Imam Hassan AS and Imam Hussein AS as the essence of the kidneys of the Holy Prophet SA. http://www.al-islam....inghussain.html

[medster10001]

Tht sounds like what I was thinking it would be. The quran never says anything about sperm passing through the kidneys so why would the imam pbuh say something like this? Anybodyelse have any other suggestions or ideas?

[medster10001]

Thanks for your replies people. Very helpful indeed. By the w.ay here's what was said.

The liver is curved so that it may encompass the stomach with its weight placed on the stomach[908] in order that the stomach’s vapors may leave it. The kidney is shaped like a bean so that it affects the flow of the sperm through its passage (vas deferens) to be a drop at a time. Were it like a rectangle or a circle, one could not feel the joy of ejaculation. Once semen leaves the seminal vesicle[909] in the back it goes through with a spring like action into the ejaculatory duct.