Jump to content


- -

- - - - -

Circumcision Ban - Germany


15 replies to this topic

#1 Ali_Hussain

Ali_Hussain

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,210 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 05:11 AM

Circumcision ruling condemned by Germany's Muslim and Jewish leaders

German court rules that procedure is bodily harm and contravenes right to choose religion in later life


Jewish and Muslim leaders were united on Wednesday in their condemnation of a German court's decision to in effect outlaw the circumcision of boys after a judge deemed that the religious practice amounted to bodily harm.

Representatives of the two religious communities called the ruling insensitive and discriminatory, saying it was an attack on centuries of religious tradition.

A judge at a Cologne court said that the circumcision of minors went against a child's interests because it led to a physical alteration of the body, and because people other than the child were determining its religious affiliation.

Religious leaders said the court had stepped into a minefield with its decision, which undermined their religious authority and contravened Germany's constitution.

Ali Demir, chairman of the Religious Community of Islam in Germany, said: "I find the ruling adversarial to the cause of integration and discriminatory against all the parties concerned."
Dieter Graumann, president of Germany's Central Council of Jews, called it "an egregious and insensitive measure" which amounted to "an unprecedented and dramatic intervention in religious communities' right of determination".

The ruling followed a lengthy legal battle, sparked when a Muslim couple decided to have their son circumcised, specifically for religious reasons, by a Muslim doctor in Cologne. The doctor, identified only as Dr K, carried out the circumcision on the four-year old boy in November 2010, before giving the wound four stitches. The same evening, he visited the family at home to check up on the boy. When the boy began bleeding again two days later, his parents took him to the casualty department of Cologne's University hospital. The hospital contacted the police, who then launched an investigation. The doctor was charged with bodily harm, and the case was taken to court.
While the court acquitted Dr. K on the grounds that he had not broken any law, it concluded that circumcision of minors for religious reasons should be outlawed, and that neither parental consent nor religious freedom justified the procedure. It ruled that in future doctors who carried out circumcisions should be punished.

The court weighed up three articles from the basic law: the rights of parents, the freedom of religious practice and the right of the child to physical integrity, before coming to the conclusion that the procedure was not in the interests of the child.

It rejected the defence that circumcision is considered hygienic in many cultures, one of the main reasons it is carried out in the US, Britain and in Germany.

After much deliberation, it concluded that a circumcision, "even when done properly by a doctor with the permission of the parents, should be considered as bodily harm if it is carried out on a boy unable to give his own consent".

It ruled the child's body would be "permanently and irreparably changed", and that this alteration went "against the interests of a child to decide for himself later on to what religion he wishes to belong".

The doctor was acquitted, the court said, because he had acted "subjectively and with a clear conscience" and because carrying out the procedure had not been punishable at the time.

Holm Putzke, a professor of penology – the study of the punishment of crime – from the University of Passau, told the German news agency DPA that the ruling would set a legal precedent and would act as a warning. "The ruling is not binding for other courts, but it will have the effect of a warning signal." He added while Dr K had been let off, from now on no doctor would be able to claim that he or she did not know it was forbidden.

He said unlike politicians who have long faced pressure to deal with the issue, "the court did not allow itself to be scared off by charges of antisemitism or religious intolerance".
Demir predicted a ban in Germany would lead to a rise in "circumcision tourism in neighbouring countries in Europe".

Condemnation also came from elsewhere in Europe, with Rabbi Aryeh Goldberg of the Brussels-based Rabbinical Centre of Europe calling the ruling "fatal to freedom of religion". He told the Jerusalem daily Haaretz that it "contravened the EU's convention on human rights, to which Germany is subservient and harms the basic freedom of religion enshrined in the German constitution".

Women's rights groups and social policy makers also condemned the decision, but for the reason that it would have the effect of putting male and female circumcision on the same footing, when they were "in no way comparable", said Katrin Altpeter, social minister in the state of Baden-Württemberg. Female circumcision she said, was a far more drastic act. It is already outlawed in Germany.

In Austria, the lay initiative Religion is a Private Matter, welcomed the Cologne decision, calling it "an important and long overdue change of direction". Its chairman, Heinz Oberhummer, said: "Bodily harm is bodily harm and children cannot be excluded from benefitting from basic rights, and certainly not for religious reasons," he said.

The World Health Organisation estimates that every third man is circumcised. Around 70% of them are Muslims, around 1% Jews.

From Twitter and Facebook to the online discussion forums of German newspapers, the decision was being hotly debated on Wednesday. An online survey of the readers of the leftwing Berlin daily Taz found two-thirds of respondents in favour of the decision.

One respondent wrote: "The issue is quite clear: the religious freedom of the parents ends precisely there where the physical harm of others begins, regardless of whether it's that of your own child or that of an unknown heathen."

But another wrote: "As a circumcised Jew, I can only add the following: did the state prosecutors in Cologne … have nothing better to do than … interfere in our thousands of years of Jewish religious law? No way, and that's why we need to act decisively against this horrendous decision by the Cologne regional court."

Putzke, who is a leading voice in the discussion about circumcision and the law, welcomed the decision: "After the knee-jerk indignation has subsided, hopefully a discussion will kick off about how much religiously motivated violence against children a society is ready to tolerate."

http://www.guardian....y-muslim-jewish


انا لله وانا اليه راجعون

Edited by Ali_Hussain, 28 June 2012 - 05:12 AM.

خُذِ الْعَفْوَ وَأْمُرْ‌ بِالْعُرْ‌فِ وَأَعْرِ‌ضْ عَنِ الْجَاهِلِي

Take to forgiveness and enjoin good and turn aside from the ignorant (7:199)

#2 titumir

titumir

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,546 posts
  • Religion:Islam

Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:17 AM

Hm. I smell a business opportunity....


Seriously, how come the don't have a problem with abortion, but have a problem with circumcision? They're hypocrites, as usual.

#3 Maryammm

Maryammm

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPip
  • 232 posts
  • Religion:Shi'ah ithne ashari Muslim

Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:29 AM

unbelievable! I heard that some european countries are planning on banning the halal and kosher methods of slaughter, by removing the exception in law that allows religiously slaughtered meat, to not have to stun prior to the actual slaughter. They are basically trying to get rid of religious Muslims in Europe, by making our religious practices illegal bit by bit! German Muslims and Jews are more then welcome to come on over to the UK in order to get their sons circumsised! and french and Belgian munaqiba and muhajjibah women are more then welcome to come and live here in a country where these things are not banned! And swiss muslims are more then welcome to come and live in a country that allows minarets and large religious buildings of all faiths. I am not saying that the UK is perfect for religious freedon but it is so much better then many other european countries.

#4 Gepetto_Zapata

Gepetto_Zapata

    Member

  • Banned
  • 1,911 posts
  • Religion:Humanity
  • Interests:Riba is haraam...

Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:48 AM

^^^ Agreed...

That's why many westerners are predicting  the following for England...

London In 20 Years.jpg

It's far more better and lax than most European and western countries...

Shab Az3ar


#5 ImAli

ImAli

    One Eyed Esther

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,435 posts
  • Location:Nibiru Planet X
  • Religion:Reptilianism
  • Interests:pet jinn, shapeshifting and being a zionist spy from a bad cult, Keeping a watch, Misguiding people

Posted 28 June 2012 - 08:13 AM

How educated of them......

Now watch the infections spread

http://www.cdc.gov/h...ircumcision.htm

Posted Image

Posted Image


#6 Marbles

Marbles

    حیدری ایم قلندرم مستم

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,700 posts
  • Location:Dystopia
  • Interests:Surveillance

Posted 28 June 2012 - 08:40 AM

Europe a step closer to totalitarianism.

#7 Haydar Husayn

Haydar Husayn

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,028 posts
  • Religion:Islam

Posted 28 June 2012 - 08:42 AM

A good example of secular intolerance.
And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you (presume to) inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 10:18, Shakir translation]

Now, surely, sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone) and (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, (saying), We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah, surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ; surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful. [Qur'an 39:3, Shakir translation]

#8 Gepetto_Zapata

Gepetto_Zapata

    Member

  • Banned
  • 1,911 posts
  • Religion:Humanity
  • Interests:Riba is haraam...

Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:16 AM

LOL

Shab Az3ar


#9 Maryammm

Maryammm

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPip
  • 232 posts
  • Religion:Shi'ah ithne ashari Muslim

Posted 28 June 2012 - 11:03 AM

View PostViolently_Happy, on 28 June 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

^^^ Agreed...

That's why many westerners are predicting  the following for England...

Attachment London In 20 Years.jpg

It's far more better and lax than most European and western countries...

yeh england will become just like that... do you even live in the uk? It isn't even close to that... I just said that the uk government isn't as hell bent on restricting minority religious practices as other european countries... funny thing is, France has the largest Muslim population in Europe, and many other european countries have a larger muslim population then the uk, which has a muslim population of 2% and the overal figure for the ethnic minority population in the uk is only 8%. I don't actually think that many european muslims and jews will come to the uk, because most are secular and not religious but yeh...
And if you were joking :angel: , then I am sorry for my serious response, it's just that those sort of fear mongering ideas are being spread by groups like Al-muhajiroun, EDL, and the BNP, and if these far right views spread, like they have in Europe, then we may see restrictions on religious freedom come along in the UK. And of course, as a UK citizen, I don't really want that to happen, nore would I want a wahabi Islamic state. Salam

#10 Darth Vader

Darth Vader

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,914 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 11:05 AM

It just goes to show that freedom, justice for all, democracy and evolution of societies are not only hollow slogans but in fact a wicked deception. The "Liberal" West's thoughts and wishes are indeed the malign, destructive cancer threatening mankind. And it would be only just if they were exposed to lethal doses of radiation and gotten rid of in order to make the entire world a better place to live and for the betterment of the society.

How Satanic and hypocrite they have become. In one instance they would say they believe in science, logical process and welfare, and then suddenly they go ape, defying everything for things like whim, spite and what not. What a great deception, and how unfortunate for all the ship jumpers who moved to the "first world" countries, the greener pastures, in pursuit of that illusive freedom, justice, equality and respect of human rights.

"I wanted a high position in life, I found it in modesty. I wanted leadership, I found it in giving advice. I wanted dignity, I found it in honesty. I wanted greatness, I found it in poverty. I wanted lineage, I found it in virtue. I wanted majesty, I found it in contentment. I looked for peace and found it in asceticism." - Uwais al Qarni


#11 Ya Aba 3abdillah

Ya Aba 3abdillah

    Destination - Jerusalem

  • Admins
  • 12,381 posts
  • Location:Jabal 'Amil
  • Religion:Islam Shia Usooli
  • Interests:Nahjul Balagha
    www.al-islam.org

Posted 28 June 2012 - 11:09 AM

I've yet to hear of a guy complaining that he was circumcised lol.

شبعا، هونين، ابل القمح، قدس، المالكية، تربيخا، صلحا، النبي يوشع - القدس


SHAME on the those who exploit the tragedy of Her Majesty Fatimah Al-Zahraa' (as) to create hate and sectarian discord! You are a SHAME to Her, to Her Father and to Islam!
Ya Shahid Al-Sadr - You lived like Muhammad. You fought like Ali. And you died like Hussain!
Save the Middle East & Declare Jihad Against Sectarianism!

#12 Marbles

Marbles

    حیدری ایم قلندرم مستم

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,700 posts
  • Location:Dystopia
  • Interests:Surveillance

Posted 28 June 2012 - 11:16 AM

View PostHaydar Husayn, on 28 June 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

A good example of secular intolerance.

In fact, call it liberal intolerance. The liberalism of Europe is under attack from Europeans themselves.

#13 Gepetto_Zapata

Gepetto_Zapata

    Member

  • Banned
  • 1,911 posts
  • Religion:Humanity
  • Interests:Riba is haraam...

Posted 29 June 2012 - 04:32 AM

View PostMaryammm, on 28 June 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

yeh england will become just like that... do you even live in the uk? It isn't even close to that... I just said that the uk government isn't as hell bent on restricting minority religious practices as other european countries... funny thing is, France has the largest Muslim population in Europe, and many other european countries have a larger muslim population then the uk, which has a muslim population of 2% and the overal figure for the ethnic minority population in the uk is only 8%. I don't actually think that many european muslims and jews will come to the uk, because most are secular and not religious but yeh...
And if you were joking :angel: , then I am sorry for my serious response, it's just that those sort of fear mongering ideas are being spread by groups like Al-muhajiroun, EDL, and the BNP, and if these far right views spread, like they have in Europe, then we may see restrictions on religious freedom come along in the UK. And of course, as a UK citizen, I don't really want that to happen, nore would I want a wahabi Islamic state. Salam

Maryammm,

Why So Ceriousss.jpg

Shab Az3ar


#14 FirstofficerSam

FirstofficerSam
  • Basic Members
  • 7 posts
  • Location:Sydney
  • Religion:Muslim/Shia
  • Interests:Aviation

Posted 02 July 2012 - 11:53 AM

WOW HOLD UP HOLD UP , Surgeons make mistakes... I dnt see surgery being banned in Germany... Sam to the German governemnt , I'm 100% sure theres 1.000 other things u can ban rather than this harmless religious practice...

#15 AlwaysChangingHisUserName

AlwaysChangingHisUserName

    Member

  • Banned
  • 968 posts

Posted 02 July 2012 - 10:01 PM

My mom had me circumcised at birth, not even for religion.  Her religion doesn't require it (something in the bible abridged the requirement).  She still had it done for cleanliness.  wat?  Why would anyone even care?  Even for the jahillah people, it gives you more pleasure to be circumcised than not.

And also, no Islamic religious practice (other than like qisas) is banned here in the United States.  It's hard to get halal meat, but it's not banned.  Perks of living in the great Shaitan?  I think so.

Edited by Zulfiqar-e-Ali, 02 July 2012 - 10:02 PM.


#16 Fink

Fink

    Ýäß

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,066 posts

Posted 02 July 2012 - 10:42 PM

It'll only be a sting

Posted Image



Reply to this topic



  


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users