75 replies to this topic

[Saintly_Jinn23]

Hello again SC, I just wanted to see the different opinions on this simple question: Did the Imams feel physical pain during their martyrdom?


First let me say a quick my quick take on this, while the Passion of our Imams and their sufferings are iconic images in the Shia world, I am currently inclined to say that the Imams did not actually feel any physical pains during their maryrdom. The reason I have leaned toward this view is that I find it rather hard to believe that such spiritual men of such high station would be able to feel physical pains. I am of the belief that through discipline on the spiritual path, the ability to feel physical pains disappears as one's attachment to this world is severed. Those who achieve a particular high state of detachment and enlightenment thus do not feel physical pain anymore because the pain of the separation from God and the longing for God and the pain of seeing his creations disobey Him clouds all other pains, particularly the physical pains which are insignificant and illusory. One would think that if any of the holy men in the past achieved this state of enlightenment and detachment in the love for God, it would be the Prophet and the Imams, peace be upon them all and may their intercession be granted to us on the Day of Judgement.

I might also ask those who comment in this thread to check out my other thread in the inter-faith board concerning Jesus and the same concept:


http://www.shiachat....n-on-the-cross/

[the Neo]

salams,

i believe that our Imams had the same kinds of physical bodies and needs as us petty humans.. but their knowledge, priorities and goals in this world were so advanced that their pains in the way of Allah swt were like pleasure for them..

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

They a.s suffered more pain than us. As

1. Their bodies are like our souls.
2. Ayesha once tried to stop rasool Allah saww from going out so she took a silk cloth and tried to pull it around his waist. To which the prophet saww suffered much pain and it bled.

Being patient in calamities is different from us too as they are more patient than us. However I do not know about physical pains incurred while fighting for Allah azwj but I can surely empathise the way imam zain ul abideen a.s wept for their sufferings in kerbala and how our imam al hadi a.s tore his shirt in lamentation for his father's death.

[kadhim]

The original post is a good example of why philosophical speculation disconnected from and not checking back in with textual evidences is so highly frowned upon. You can spin around to any number of ideas if you have no reality check of what the aimmah actually said. Not to rejct philosophy in total; you need some philosophical background to intelligently figure out how to systematically, consistently interpret texts, but philosophical speculation on its own in theology is dangerous.

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

If the hadith is sahih regarding the arrow that hit Imam Ali in the foot and Rasoul saying to pull it out whilst Imam Ali was in salah so he doesn't feel it, then it might be possible.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

They used to be so deeply engrossed in the love of Allah,that they remain unaffected from pain,even if it was felt,they could care less.
We can take the example of Zulaikha's friends cutting their fingers when they saw Yousaf(as) just visualization of his beauty made them numb from pain,though they were ordinary women,then why can't the feeling of presence of the most Exalted one,The Almighty could make His most loved ones so indulged in His love to not take any heed of physical suffering? That does n't mean they could n't feel it,but they did n't care about it in Allah's love.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra, 28 June 2012 - 12:26 PM.

[macisaac]

This is not our beliefs:


59- وأنهم بشر محدثون، وعباد مصنوعون، لا يخلقون، ولا يرزقون، ويأكلون ويشربون، وتكون لهم الأزواج، وتنالهم الآلام والأعلال، ويستضامون، ويخافون فيتقون، وأن منهم من قتل، ومنهم من قبض



59 – And that they are originated human beings, created servants.  They do not create and they do not provide sustenance.  They eat and they drink, and they have wives.  Pains and sickness takes them, and they are harmed.  They fear so they do taqiyya.  And from them are those who are killed and from them are those who died.


http://www.tashayyu....hia-al-imamiyya

[Haydar Husayn]

This is getting ridiculous. Even Christians believe Jesus Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, who they think is God (a`udhubillah), felt pain.

[Qa'im]

Maryam was a siddiqa and she felt the pains of childbirth like any woman

.And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!" (19:23)

[Gepetto_Zapata]

OP why such high ranks in the eyes of Allah a.j. If their lives and deaths were easy and "painless"? Besides pain in death is but only for a mere moment, either fight it and feel it more or accept it and welcome it...

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

I recall a sunni narration in which the Prophet s.a.w is reported to have said whilst on his last days, "There is no Deity worthy of worship except Allah. Verily death comes with agonies."

[Mutah_King]

They better have been able to experience the same emotions we do, otherwise why would anyone give them any credit for their feats?  In any case, they sure were in a tremendously more advantageous position than us given their knowledge and imaan.   That alone would make it easier for someone to make the necessary sacrifices in this world.

[Gypsy]

Of course they feel pain. Why would anyone think they wouldn't?

[Al-Afasy]

macisaac, on 28 June 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

This is not our beliefs:


59- وأنهم بشر محدثون، وعباد مصنوعون، لا يخلقون، ولا يرزقون، ويأكلون ويشربون، وتكون لهم الأزواج، وتنالهم الآلام والأعلال، ويستضامون، ويخافون فيتقون، وأن منهم من قتل، ومنهم من قبض



59 – And that they are originated human beings, created servants.  They do not create and they do not provide sustenance.  They eat and they drink, and they have wives.  Pains and sickness takes them, and they are harmed.  They fear so they do taqiyya.  And from them are those who are killed and from them are those who died.


http://www.tashayyu....hia-al-imamiyya

I wonder if Sheikh as-Sadooq says that the A'immah can get diseases (which they obviously can't).

[Haydar Husayn]

Al-Afasy, on 28 June 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

I wonder if Sheikh as-Sadooq says that the A'immah can get diseases (which they obviously can't).

What's the difference between getting sick and getting a disease? And why is it obvious that they can't get a disease?

[Al-Afasy]

Haydar Husayn, on 28 June 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

What's the difference between getting sick and getting a disease? And why is it obvious that they can't get a disease?

Short term vs. Long term, and believing that they could get diseases is taqseer.

بَقِيَّةً مِنْ آدَمَ ع وَ خِيَرَةً مِنْ ذُرِّيَّةِ نُوحٍ وَ مُصْطَفًى مِنْ آلِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَ سُلَالَةً مِنْ إِسْمَاعِيلَ وَ صَفْوَةً مِنْ عِتْرَةِ مُحَمَّدٍ ص لَمْ يَزَلْ مَرْعِيّاً بِعَيْنِ اللَّهِ يَحْفَظُهُ وَ يَكْلَؤُهُ بِسِتْرِهِ مَطْرُوداً عَنْهُ حَبَائِلُ إِبْلِيسَ وَ جُنُودِهِ مَدْفُوعاً عَنْهُ وُقُوبُ الْغَوَاسِقِ وَ نُفُوثُ كُلِّ فَاسِقٍ مَصْرُوفاً عَنْهُ قَوَارِفُ السُّوءِ مُبْرَأً مِنَ الْعَاهَاتِ مَحْجُوباً عَنِ الْآفَاتِ مَعْصُوماً مِنَ الزَّلَّاتِ مَصُوناً عَنِ الْفَوَاحِشِ كُلِّهَا

Imaam Al-Saadiq (عليه السلام) said:“...He is the remainder from Aadam (عليه السلام), the best (ones) from the progeny of Nooh (عليه السلام), the chosen one from the family (ahl) of Ibraaheem (عليه السلام), and the offspring from Ismaa`eel, and the elite (ones) from the lineage (`itrah) of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), He has always been looked after by the eyes of Allaah who protects him and guards him with his curtain, he is expelled from the ropes of Iblees, and he is a solder he pushes away from approaching twilight. And all immorality (fisq) and evil is discharged from him, he is free deformities, he is veiled from diseases, he is ma`soom from (any) minor sin, and he is preserved from all (types) of filth (fawaaHish)...”
Source:
1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 1, Kitaab Al-Hujjah, Ch. 15, hadeeth # 2, pg. 203 - 205
Grading:
1.    Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 2, pg. 400

http://www.revivinga...ibility-of.html

[Saintly_Jinn23]

I think there's some misunderstanding as to what I am referring to by "pain" (which may very well be part of the point I am trying to make)

The pains I am referring to are the physical pains that one endures when damage is done to the fleshly body. The kind of pain one feels when he or she cuts himself with a knife. This is the kind of pain I talking about. It would seem to me that some traditions support the idea that the Imams' spiritual state, that is their state of spiritual enlightenment and living, made them so that they didn't feel physical pains such as those I've just mentioned. This does not include however the pains of spiritual struggle, that is, the emotional pains of the soul which don't concern the flesh, or the mortal body to be exact.

Now some you state that they were indifferent to the physical pains, not so much that they didn't feel them, but I submit that, ideally, as one more becomes more "indifferent" to the physical pains the body endures, these physical pains are no longer physical pains because perfect indifference to pain is the same as not feeling it, because at that point there is no longer anything to distinguish the physical pains from the physical pleasures the body endures. The two, in essence, become one in the same.

Qa, on 28 June 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

Maryam was a siddiqa and she felt the pains of childbirth like any woman

.And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!" (19:23)

I don't think this disproves what I said in the slightest, Maryam is Maryam. I'm talking about the 12 Imams, whose station is higher. Maryam is beneath her own son in the heavenly hierarchy. And also I never said that spiritual people do not ever feel pains of the body, I said that spiritual people of a certain level become spiritually indifferent, and thus impervious, to the pains. Maryam certainly did feel at least the first initial pains of labor, but, bear in mind, this does not mean that she didn't attain to a higher station later on in her mortal life where she no longer felt such insignificant things, it only means that at least at that point in her life, she wasn't yet of such station.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23, 28 June 2012 - 06:14 PM.

[macisaac]

Al-Afasy, on 28 June 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

Short term vs. Long term, and believing that they could get diseases is taqseer.

Did you just make that up?  

Quote

بَقِيَّةً مِنْ آدَمَ ع وَ خِيَرَةً مِنْ ذُرِّيَّةِ نُوحٍ وَ مُصْطَفًى مِنْ آلِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَ سُلَالَةً مِنْ إِسْمَاعِيلَ وَ صَفْوَةً مِنْ عِتْرَةِ مُحَمَّدٍ ص لَمْ يَزَلْ مَرْعِيّاً بِعَيْنِ اللَّهِ يَحْفَظُهُ وَ يَكْلَؤُهُ بِسِتْرِهِ مَطْرُوداً عَنْهُ حَبَائِلُ إِبْلِيسَ وَ جُنُودِهِ مَدْفُوعاً عَنْهُ وُقُوبُ الْغَوَاسِقِ وَ نُفُوثُ كُلِّ فَاسِقٍ مَصْرُوفاً عَنْهُ قَوَارِفُ السُّوءِ مُبْرَأً مِنَ الْعَاهَاتِ مَحْجُوباً عَنِ الْآفَاتِ مَعْصُوماً مِنَ الزَّلَّاتِ مَصُوناً عَنِ الْفَوَاحِشِ كُلِّهَا

Imaam Al-Saadiq (عليه السلام) said:“...He is the remainder from Aadam (عليه السلام), the best (ones) from the progeny of Nooh (عليه السلام), the chosen one from the family (ahl) of Ibraaheem (عليه السلام), and the offspring from Ismaa`eel, and the elite (ones) from the lineage (`itrah) of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), He has always been looked after by the eyes of Allaah who protects him and guards him with his curtain, he is expelled from the ropes of Iblees, and he is a solder he pushes away from approaching twilight. And all immorality (fisq) and evil is discharged from him, he is free deformities, he is veiled from diseases, he is ma`soom from (any) minor sin, and he is preserved from all (types) of filth (fawaaHish)...”
Source:
1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 1, Kitaab Al-Hujjah, Ch. 15, hadeeth # 2, pg. 203 - 205
Grading:
1.    Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 2, pg. 400

http://www.revivinga...ibility-of.html

An extract from a rather longer narration coming from someone who tended to narrate rather improbable to impossible things (al-Hasan b. Mahbub).  Regardless, Majlisi explains that what is meant by `ahat and afat here are maladies that result the distaste of the people and deformation of ones creation, such as blindness, lameness, leprosy, etc, with a possible other meaning of mental/psychological diseases.  Anyway the word here الْآفَاتِ  is different than what I quoted الأعلال

Saintly_Jinn23, on 28 June 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

I think there's some misunderstanding as to what I am referring to by "pain" (which may very well be part of the point I am trying to make)

The pains I am referring to are the physical pains that one endures when damage is done to the fleshly body. The kind of pain one feels when he or she cuts himself with a knife. This is the kind of pain I talking about. It would seem to me that some traditions support the idea that the Imams' spiritual state, that is their state of spiritual enlightenment and living, made them so that they didn't feel physical pains such as those I've just mentioned. This does not include however the pains of spiritual struggle, that is, the emotional pains of the soul which don't concern the flesh, or the mortal body to be exact.

Now some you state that they were indifferent to the physical pains, not so much that they didn't feel them, but I submit that, ideally, as one more becomes more "indifferent" to the physical pains the body endures, these physical pains are no longer physical pains because perfect indifference to pain is the same as not feeling it, because at that point there is no longer anything to distinguish the physical pains from the physical pleasures the body endures. The two, in essence, become one in the same.

What's the point of all this speculation though?  Having a certain threshold of sensitivity to pain in itself isn't a bad thing.  Pain in fact serves as the body's warning system of something bad going on or about to happen.  

Perhaps you've just watched too many episodes of Kung Fu..

Al-Afasy, on 28 June 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

I wonder if Sheikh as-Sadooq says that the A'immah can get diseases (which they obviously can't).

You're perhaps forgetting that Amir al-Mu'mineen (a) had conjunctivitis in the eye which was healed by the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله.

[Martyrdom]

Imam Hassan(as) was in pain when he died of poison.

[89jghur32]

The argument being made in the first post also leads to a very positive view of monasticism, which is obviously frowned upon in our school of thought.

[Gypsy]

macisaac, on 28 June 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

You're perhaps forgetting that Amir al-Mu'mineen (a) had conjunctivitis in the eye which was healed by the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله.

Oh yes. I remembered. This was in the Tabuk war. After the Prophet healed Imam Ali's eyes, he handed him the Islamic banner.

Edited by Gypsy, 28 June 2012 - 07:56 PM.

[Haydar Husayn]

Gypsy, on 28 June 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

Oh yes. I remembered. This was in the Tabuk war. After the Prophet healed Imam Ali's eyes, he handed him the Islamic banner.

I think you mean Khaybar. Imam `Ali (a) didn't go on the Tabuk expedition, but was left in charge of Madina (which was the context, or one of the contexts, for the hadith of manzila).