17 replies to this topic

[struggling_On]

Hello brothers/sisters,


I'm looking for books which are especially written on atheism believes but the author should be the renown shia scholars???  These believes are really disturbing me.  I don't have the time go in depth to read atheist literature and then read islamic literature on the topic, so i'm looking for such books in which authors have really tried to answers their objections on existence of GOD?????


Thanks in Advance

[Quisant]

struggling_On, on 24 June 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

Hello brothers/sisters,


I'm looking for books which are especially written on atheism believes but the author should be the renown shia scholars???  These believes are really disturbing me.  I don't have the time go in depth to read atheist literature and then read islamic literature on the topic, so i'm looking for such books in which authors have really tried to answers their objections on existence of GOD?????


Thanks in Advance

Atheism is not a set of beliefs. There is no atheist bible or dogma.
There are no rules which all atheists are expected to follow.

Atheism is about not believing that there are such things as gods. Just that.

wslm.
*

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

Quisant, on 24 June 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

Atheism is not a set of beliefs. There is no atheist bible or dogma.
There are no rules which all atheists are expected to follow.

Atheism is about not believing that there are such things as gods. Just that.

What if i was to write just a book, and call myself a prophet of atheism?

[Quisant]

Ya Aba 3abdillah, on 24 June 2012 - 03:30 AM, said:

What if i was to write just a book, and call myself a prophet of atheism?

Good day Ya Aba 3abdillah, you always make me smile.

You would surely be a cool dude, although... probably not divinely inspired

[struggling_On]

Quisant, on 24 June 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

Atheism is not a set of beliefs. There is no atheist bible or dogma.
There are no rules which all atheists are expected to follow.

Atheism is about not believing that there are such things as gods. Just that.

wslm.
*

hmmmmm, ok it means  they do their best to bring arguments trying to prove that god doesn't exist and they spend all their lives doing that, and calling those who believe in any religion, idiots, ignorant s and uneducated??????? Well it sound like time wasting hobby to me......................

Edited by struggling_On, 24 June 2012 - 04:34 AM.

[Belial]

struggling_On, on 24 June 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

hmmmmm, ok it means  they do their best to bring arguments trying to prove that god doesn't exist and they spend all their lives doing that, and calling those who believe in any religion, idiots, ignorant s and uneducated??????? Well it sound like time wasting hobby to me......................

Ah, well, maybe for some atheists its like that.  I find that a bit offensive though .

Quisant gave an adequate response.  Atheists are atheists for various reasons.

So, what kind of atheism are you looking for objections to?

Edited by Belial, 24 June 2012 - 08:48 AM.

[struggling_On]

I did not know there were different kinds of atheism? but i wanna know more about, well u can say their basic philosophy how  they come up with these ideas, is there any book written by shia scholar which really addresses the atheism in general and how it is refuted from islamic perspective ?????

Belial, on 24 June 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

Ah, well, maybe for some atheists its like that.  I find that a bit offensive though .

yeah, that's what they do , finally they get offended by something   .......... Just imagine for a second, how offended The God will be, if they, the atheists at some point found out that what they used to believe was not right???? Will there be any way of salvation for them from the wrath of the God at that point ??????? Just a thought....... Probably that point could be the death of a person or some other point in life......?????

Edited by struggling_On, 24 June 2012 - 09:09 AM.

[Quisant]

struggling_On, on 24 June 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

I did not know there were different kinds of atheism? but i wanna know more about, well u can say their basic philosophy how  they come up with these ideas, is there any book written by shia scholar which really addresses the atheism in general and how it is refuted from islamic perspective ?????

Atheism is not a claim or a philosophy, it is simply lack of belief, absence of belief.

Atheism is not a stance that is intended to lead to something else. Atheism is a conclusion.

Why lack of belief?
Because there is no evidence, there has never been any evidence for the existence of a God or Gods.

Quote

yeah, that's what they do , finally they get offended by something   ..........

Do you know many atheists personally?

wslm.
*

[Belial]

struggling_On, on 24 June 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

I did not know there were different kinds of atheism? but i wanna know more about, well u can say their basic philosophy how  they come up with these ideas, is there any book written by shia scholar which really addresses the atheism in general and how it is refuted from islamic perspective ?????


yeah, that's what they do , finally they get offended by something   .......... Just imagine for a second, how offended The God will be, if they, the atheists at some point found out that what they used to believe was not right???? Will there be any way of salvation for them from the wrath of the God at that point ??????? Just a thought....... Probably that point could be the death of a person or some other point in life......?????

Well...i am a scientist.  If you want to know why I personally have become agnostic, just go pick up a book a few books on geology. It will become apparent.  Though, the best place to get this information, is from scientists ourselves, not from shia scholars (religious people know religion, they often do not know science).  And, in my opinion, my beliefs cannot be refuted by yours, so in all honesty, I can not show you such refutations, because to me, it appears that they dont exist lol.

But then again, I dont know exactly what you believe, so I cant say if we even disagree at all.

I can recommend books in relation to earth history, If you are truly interested.

And im not really an atheist btw.  True atheists are few in number, most are agnostic.

Edited by Belial, 24 June 2012 - 10:26 AM.

[struggling_On]

Quisant, on 24 June 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

Atheism is not a claim or a philosophy, it is simply lack of belief, absence of belief.

Atheism is not a stance that is intended to lead to something else. Atheism is a conclusion.

Why lack of belief?
Because there is no evidence, there has never been any evidence for the existence of a God or Gods.




Do you know many atheists personally?

wslm.
*

not really but I know someone who is not really a atheist but who've turned a lot of people into one

Belial, on 24 June 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

Well...i am a scientist.  If you want to know why I personally have become agnostic, just go pick up a book a few books on geology. It will become apparent.  Though, the best place to get this information, is from scientists ourselves, not from shia scholars (religious people know religion, they often do not know science).  And, in my opinion, my beliefs cannot be refuted by yours, so in all honesty, I can not show you such refutations, because to me, it appears that they dont exist lol.

But then again, I dont know exactly what you believe, so I cant say if we even disagree at all.

I can recommend books in relation to earth history, If you are truly interested.

And im not really an atheist btw.  True atheists are few in number, most are agnostic.

uhh! I always wished i should have opted for natural sciences instead of commerce because i honestly believe, it would have  further increased my faith in God...........

Edited by struggling_On, 24 June 2012 - 12:41 PM.

[Pascal]

Originally, i was not going to reply but i do not think its fair to continue to let you be mistaken.

First, here is the book you're looking for:




What’s that? It is blank? Exactly.

Atheism is not a set of beliefs.

It is the polar opposite of religion. In religion you have a long list of beliefs, ideals and rules believers need to follow. In Atheism, such a thing doesn't exist. It simply isn't a religion.

Atheism is only one thing - lack of belief in any kind of God(s). That is it, that is the one and only characteristic. There are no sets of beliefs or prescribed ethics because it is not a religion. It is just the lack of belief in a God and it stops there. Whatever ethics, worldview or beliefs a particular atheist has is a result of their own personal choices and decisions rather than any kind of rules all atheists must follow (again, no such rules exist).

So, asking for a book on what "atheism believes" is a plain logical contradiction.

I doubt many Shi'a scholars would spend time writing about Atheism. Whom are the people reading the books of these scholars? Almost all of them are already Muslims; they do not need to be told about atheism or any perceived flaws with it.

I'll share a little fact with you that i picked up along the way in philosophy of religion, "in which authors have really tried to answers their objections on existence of GOD?????", no such answers exist. If the answers did exist and they were actually good enough to defeat the objections, no one would use these objections anymore. Clearly, this is not the case and in thousands of years of belief in God, people still have not satisfactorily defeated these objections.

struggling_On, on 24 June 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

and calling those who believe in any religion, idiots, ignorant s and uneducated??????? Well it sound like time wasting hobby to me......................

This is what i did not want you to be mistaken on.

I can not be sure but you may possibly be referring to my post here.

The words you mention are verbatim from mine.

If I actually intended to insult you and that was my choice, then, i do not shy away from that.

However, in this case, it is not what i intended to do. I said the only people you will get to believe in a religion, based on fear of punishment, are idiots, ignorants and uneducated fools. If the basis of your belief is simply fear of punishment rather than actual belief and love for God, on good theological and philosophical grounds, then, you are building a house on sand, your religion stands of very weak and theologically shaky foundations if your belief is based on fear. I was not talking about believers in general. I accept they are just as intelligent and logical as I am but they have reached a different conclusion.

It is not a time wasting hobby, i am wasting time i otherwise would of done nothing with anyway. Trust me, i don’t miss a party, going out with my partner, socialising or pretty much anything in my life to sit down and philosophise instead. I enjoy philosophy, especially philosophy of religion, i spend a portion of my spare time (that you or almost everyone else here also has) on philosophy whereas other people would spend it watching TV or playing video games (not that i do not also do those things). Therefore, where you might watch TV, i spend part of that time on philosophy because it’s one of the things i enjoy. I'm sure thats true of many of us in the philosophy section and indeed the entire forum in general.

---------------
Any good general philosophy of religion book should help you, i'm sure they're easy enough to find where ever you buy or borrow your books. If your serious about this, pick up an actual book rather than just reading the odd thing or two on the internet (it is also a good resource too).

These might also help:
http://en.wikipedia....xistence_of_god
http://www.infidels....library/modern/
http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/
http://www.iep.utm.e...and-e/religion/
http://plato.stanford.edu/

towards the little more biased side: http://www.patheos.c...easonablefaith/

very brief and not complete - http://www.bbc.co.uk...igions/atheism/

My blog linked down there contains a varied collection of my own particular personal philosophical writings but id start in other places with other resources.

Edited by kingpomba, 24 June 2012 - 01:30 PM.

[Maitham]

The absence of a belief is also a belief in something other than others beliefs but still it is a belief that a group holds. the lack of religion is a religion of lack. if you believe a certain principle that classifies you into a group that means that is your belief. or at least the belief you branch out of.

Edited by Maitham, 24 June 2012 - 04:46 PM.

[Pascal]

Jebreil, on 24 June 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

Kingpomba



Or perhaps the fact that many of these arguments for the existence of God are still being quoted and refutations are being written against the objections and many thinkers still find reason to believe in God shows that people still have not satisfactorily defeated their arguments for the Divine.
If they had and the objections had been good enough, no one would be convinced by these arguments anymore. Clearly, this is not the case.


If that sort of reasoning makes you happy, like it when it's sunny and like it when it's rainy.

Things often get lost in the medium of text and i think you misread what i wrote (i cant blame you it barely makes sense, i wrote it very late into the evening and just like the other posts around that time there are spelling and grammar problems i cant fix anymore).

I have many influences, Epicurus and William Rowe are some of the biggest ones. I'm not sure if i would go as far as Rowe to say some Theists actually have good justifications for their beliefs (even if God doesn't exist) but i'm definitely sympathetic to this. I'm sure as you can read in my posts in times gone by and indeed on my blog when i write about agnosticism, that is something i am very comitted to. As an agnostic i realise its a two way street, there are good arguments on both sides.

In theory, i agree. If all the arguments were so bad and flawed, they just wouldn't be used anymore, in theory. I still see some shocking use of some of the classically flawed arguments on both sides though.

Maitham, on 24 June 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

The lack of religion is a religion of lack.

This is all very poetic and wordy but you simply can't say something and it instantly become true. Atheism isn't a religion, you saying it is doesn't make it one, neither does reversing words around.

It's quiet clear even to the casual observer it is not a religion.

A religion isn't just a belief in God or not. Indeed, there is no God in buddhism but it is still considered to be a [b]religion by almost everyone out there.

Religions are a collection of moral values and narritives. There are no moral values that all atheists follow, it is up to the individual to derive their own, so, it fails on that count. There is no real narrative either.

Religions deal with ethics. It is a non-question for atheism is only the lack of belief in God, nothing else. It is up to the individual.

Religions usually deal with the origin and meaning of life, atheism has nothing to do with this. You could be an atheist (since the only defining characteristic is lack of belief in God) and still think the universe was created by Aliens or not be all that friendly to science.

Religions almost always have some kind of clergy, congregation and defined scripture. Atheism does not have these.

Religions have spiritual practices and holidays. Atheism has none.

Belief in God is a part of a religion but that is not religion in its totality, its quite clear there is more. So, on the otherside of the coin, lack of belief in God clearly isn't a religion or belief system either.

Edited by kingpomba, 25 June 2012 - 12:12 PM.

[struggling_On]

kingpomba, on 24 June 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

I said the only people you will get to believe in a religion, based on fear of punishment, are idiots, ignorants and uneducated fools. If the basis of your belief is simply fear of punishment rather than actual belief and love for God, on good theological and philosophical grounds, then, you are building a house on sand, your religion stands of very weak and theologically shaky foundations if your belief is based on fear. I was not talking about believers in general. I accept they are just as intelligent and logical as I am but they have reached a different conclusion.

yes for that part i’m somewhat agreed with you, I have reached the same conclusion myself, and this is also consistent with what One of our Divinely Leaders said it's quote from imam Ali , he said “I worship my lord not because of fear of punishment that's is worship of a servant nor do I worship my lord for his bounties because that's the worship of a trader, but I worship my lord because he deserved to be worshiped"

But that's the highest level love from a servant to his GOD/Allah it's only possible when a human being has a true understanding of his GOD( that’s whole separate topic). But at the same time fear for punishment has to be there because "human is an err” so it's our sins from which we are afraid of, because these are the real reasons for punishment, otherwise Our GOD is so merciful he would not have punished us, so fear of punishment is important in religion, it does not mean that only uneducated and idiots have to base their believes on fear this goes for everyone who really have recognized his GOD/Allah.

Because in Holy Quran Allah said.
[Yusufali 33:70] O ye who believe! Fear Allah, and (always) say a word directed to the Right:



Those who love their GOD that does mean that they are free to do whatever they want to do, to be real lover of GOD, u have to submit to commandants of GOD. If u don't then you are sinful in sight of GOD and you deserve to be punished by your GOD, (and obviously u don't have to agree with that)

But if u r referring to that post which I made, I simply said be careful there's an evil inside human beings that will instigate them to do sins because he is our biggest and the only enemy, he will adorn people's deeds in the eyes of people and whisper evil thoughts, so that people will not follow the commandants of their GOD (obviously u don't have to believe in this too). So I was stating my opinion that's all and I respect yours

Edited by struggling_On, 25 June 2012 - 01:29 PM.

[Gypsy]

You guys are not helpful at all.

Here's a list of books. I've read some of them. I can't really recommend any.

http://www.amazon.co.../R2FZ2TV7UAKNGV

[Faatima_ki_kaneez]

read Sense and goodness without God by Richard Carrier--he was invited to debate against hassanain rajabali in a debate between thiesm and athiesm. I haven't read the book, but i've watched the debate several times on youtube.


edited to add: but again, most athiests don't have a book on their beleifs, but rather their lack of beleifs. for example, an athiest's argument is always centered around why God does not exist. Otherwise, they mostly just beleive in sciecne. So, if you want to know what they beleive in, rather than not believe in, just read books on the Big Bang Theory, Evolution, etc.

Edited by Faatima_ki_kaneez, 25 June 2012 - 09:25 PM.

[struggling_On]

Thanks everyone,


I guess i found my answers,

Edited by struggling_On, 26 June 2012 - 12:54 AM.