16 replies to this topic

[Belle.Muslimah]

Asalamu alaikom everyone i hope you are all well inshallah,

Now i have been trying to gather information on where the originalo Quran is, by original i mean the very first written records of it,  i have read and heard it was orginally noted down on stone and leather etc at the time of Prophet Mohammad pbuh, are those stones and leathers kept somewhere? and i would gather that there would have been a first "book" made to be binded together, copied from the original records yeah?(off of the stones and leather) so there would kind of be two original records 1. the ones written at time of Prophet pbuh and one made when books/pages where techologised lol made up word, does this make sense? lol i hope you get what im saying, i look forward to th information being passed over, Thank You.

Wasalam

[alimohamad40]

there is no origional quraan written in the time of the prophet

imam ali did write some thing like that but they rejected it and he told them that they will never see it again until the reappearance of almahdi  in theevents of the antichrist and armagedon


later after the prophets death there was big dufferences over the different versions of the quraan and at the end Uthman burnt all of them and only kept one

the oldest one we have is the uthmanic versions which there are three copies

one copy is  caleld the samar qand copy which is in russia (soviet)  some where in a meseum

and i think there is one in turkey

[Gepetto_Zapata]

At the death of the Prophet s., our first Imam, Ali son of Abu-Talib s. took an oath that he shall not come out of his house until he writes down the Qu'raan completely. He did exactly that, and in exact chronology on how the verses descended on the Prophet s. during the period of 23 years. The first verse being Iqraa bi Ismi Rabbika Alldhee Khalaq, "Read by your Lord's name that created (everything that exists)", and the last verse the Prophet s. received before his death was the last verse in the Qu'raan of Imam Ali's s. version. But as it was like that, things were more apparent, the hypocrites mentionned in the Qu'raan, now who are mostly in Power or were easier to be recognize as Imam Ali s. version (Mus-haf Ali) was clear and chronological according to the events that took place for those verses to descend... So the evil hypocrites rejected this Qu'raan immediately, till it was mumbled and jumbled up later on in Uthman's time. Mixed up so that truths be more hidden. This is what we have in our hands today. Mind you it's complete, but mixed up and not as the verses descended.

[ילדת מלך]

Violently_Happy, on 22 June 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

At the death of the Prophet s., our first Imam, Ali son of Abu-Talib s. took an oath that he shall not come out of his house until he writes down the Qu'raan completely. He did exactly that, and in exact chronology on how the verses descended on the Prophet s. during the period of 23 years. The first verse being Iqraa bi Ismi Rabbika Alldhee Khalaq, "Read by your Lord's name that created (everything that exists)", and the last verse the Prophet s. received before his death was the last verse in the Qu'raan of Imam Ali's s. version. But as it was like that, things were more apparent, the hypocrites mentionned in the Qu'raan, now who are mostly in Power or were easier to be recognize as Imam Ali s. version (Mus-haf Ali) was clear and chronological according to the events that took place for those verses to descend... So the evil hypocrites rejected this Qu'raan immediately, till it was mumbled and jumbled up later on in Uthman's time. Mixed up so that truths be more hidden. This is what we have in our hands today. Mind you it's complete, but mixed up and not as the verses descended.

So the only copy which was  in accordance with the sequence of revelation was compiled by Hazrat Ali ?

and third Caliph decided to give the present sequence of surahs and seepars as found in the Book--- on which authority ?---I mean to ask why did he think that he has the authority to jumble up the sequence of revelation, and did no person object to this jumbling up ?

[Belle.Muslimah]

Salams ok thank you for this info, i had heard about Imam Ali as, being in his home untill he finished writing the Quran, now i guess my question goes, how do we know how 100% authentic every word of the quran we read today is? and is there really only one version of Quran as i keep hearing from sheik Yusef Estes lol

[alimohamad40]

we dont know that its 100% authentic because it was trasmitted through narrations which they claim had ijmaa

ijmaa means diversity of narrators on each level of the narration agreeing to the exact same thing which makes thier testimony impssible to be a lie


I found that this claim is a lie and there is no such ijmaa

there are two types of ijmaa

1) ijmaa in itself
2) ijmaa due to other

maybe they can prove the ijmaa using the second one but i dont know of any reference for the quraan which has the proper ijmaa of the first type and i know many people will attack this statement but i invite them to give me those references



DR yusuf estes is either ignorant or lying and i hope its the first one  when he says that the quraan we have is only one version


we have 10 "acceptable" versions with slight but serious differences    they call them the 10 qiraat (10 readings)

the diffferences are  some times full words , letters, meanings , grammer, accent and etc

the most common versions which is propably in your hand is the " hafs from asim" versions

all these 10 different versions availiable today are only 1 out of the 7 alleged HOROOF   because uthman burnt the other 6 Horoof  eventhough sunnies claim that all the seven horoof were part of the quraan

shias say that the quran was revealed as one harf  (one version)

references for what i say could be found in books like

al itqan for alsayooti

tafseer  altabari

tafseer ibn katheer

and other ordinary hadeeth books

salaam

[Belle.Muslimah]

wow ok, hmmm strange, whenever i have spoken to muslims about this they swear on every word of quran and always tell me i must believe every word of it and also the sunnah in order to be a muslim otherwise im not muslim, so how does this work, how would we ever determine what is exactly from Allah swt? and how will we know if we following the "right" version or "right" sect?

[alimohamad40]

Having said all the previous the Quran remains as the most authentic bOok at hand which is agreed by all sects as the constitution for life

But the only 100% authentic source is our innate (gods internal messenger) which is our mind and conscious
For determining right sect we have to do that through aqeeda (usool aldeen) and in that we are prohibited from imitating holy text any way.

Possibility of the holy text having problem doesn't effect our belief in any way as our belief is not based on imitation or miracles but purely on the innate and logic.
The holy text although it highlights and reenforces the beliefs for confirmation it also asters the instructions for the way of life

So the holy text is for foroo3 aldeen and imitation but the usool needs the independent derivation of it using the mind.

It doesn't help to say : " the holy text said god is one"
Which holy text? And who said that it's actually holy and not fabricated? Some holy text says he is three so how did you judge and authenticate. ?
Since all holy text is transmitted by non massoom people and the possibility of lie then you cam not be sure because you did not witness it.
The only thing you can bet yourlife on is your innate and inborn knowledge and conscious (gods voice inside you)

Also note that claims of tampering with the quraan which have been made are mainly claims of omission and not claims of addition .

Also note that if the find mathematical formulas in the quraan which apply perfectly then they can use those miracles to verify and enforce it's authenticity


So far  they have found some amazing things but they are incomplete. They found that specific words are mentioned specific number of times and they found patterns relating to number 19 but the person who discovered the miracles of 19 rashad khalifa in Egypt was killed most likely by so called Muslims. He omitted a few versus to make it work.
There is a whole sect following on Thier steps namely the quranists and Thier website submission.org

It's worth studying but my point is had they come with conclusive patterns leaving no doubt that the pattern is miraceoulous and byond the ability of a mathematician then it would have enforced the authenticity of the quraan.
Salaam

[saherfatima]

alimohamad40, on 24 June 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

we dont know that its 100% authentic because it was trasmitted through narrations which they claim had ijmaa

ijmaa means diversity of narrators on each level of the narration agreeing to the exact same thing which makes thier testimony impssible to be a lie


I found that this claim is a lie and there is no such ijmaa

there are two types of ijmaa

1) ijmaa in itself
2) ijmaa due to other

maybe they can prove the ijmaa using the second one but i dont know of any reference for the quraan which has the proper ijmaa of the first type and i know many people will attack this statement but i invite them to give me those references



DR yusuf estes is either ignorant or lying and i hope its the first one  when he says that the quraan we have is only one version


we have 10 "acceptable" versions with slight but serious differences they call them the 10 qiraat (10 readings)

the diffferences are  some times full words , letters, meanings , grammer, accent and etc

the most common versions which is propably in your hand is the " hafs from asim" versions

all these 10 different versions availiable today are only 1 out of the 7 alleged HOROOF   because uthman burnt the other 6 Horoof  eventhough sunnies claim that all the seven horoof were part of the quraan

shias say that the quran was revealed as one harf  (one version)

references for what i say could be found in books like

al itqan for alsayooti

tafseer  altabari

tafseer ibn katheer

and other ordinary hadeeth books

salaam

This is something that confuses me , I just want to know to what extent is it necessary to understand the Quran to be a protected book (from any corruption), as from what you've pointed out obviously not protected in terms of order or human grammatical errors anything else?
Are there any views of ayats that may be in the wrong surah?
And are there any narrations that mention that Ahlul Bayt felt this quran different to Imam Ali as would suffice?

[hasanhh]

Does not anyone pay attention to what is said in Masjid?

The original copies of the Quran were 'recalled' so that diacritical marks could be added since there were variations on the pronunciation.

And about a decade ago, Ali's copy was found in Yemen(I think it was here. Check with the Iranians).

[Belle.Muslimah]

hasanhh, on 02 July 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

Does not anyone pay attention to what is said in Masjid?

The original copies of the Quran were 'recalled' so that diacritical marks could be added since there were variations on the pronunciation.

And about a decade ago, Ali's copy was found in Yemen(I think it was here. Check with the Iranians).

Really?? where can we find info on this (Ali as copy that was found) who has it is there any news on it?

[alimohamad40]

the copies that we have of origional quraans dont have the signs on the letters and dont have dots

they say there was no dots at that time but my belief is that the prophet and imam Ali knew the dots and the grammer

many of the differences are over the grammer

and they claim that aby al aswad al duali put put the dots on the letters and he is the one of the loyals and students of imam Ali


as for the yaman copy i wish we get infromed more about it i also heard about it.

salaam

[Basim Ali]

This is apparently a picture of a page of the very first written record of the Qur'an, recorded on camel skin. The copy is in present day Tashkent, Uzbekistan.

[alimohamad40]

this picture is of the uthmanic manuscript ( tashqand copy)
as you see it has no dots nor signs nor grammer and its not complete fully

they say there are three copies of this aonther one propably in turkey

[Reshad]

alimohamad40, on 22 June 2012 - 03:48 AM, said:

there is no origional quraan written in the time of the prophet

imam ali did write some thing like that but they rejected it and he told them that they will never see it again until the reappearance of almahdi  in theevents of the antichrist and armagedon


later after the prophets death there was big dufferences over the different versions of the quraan and at the end Uthman burnt all of them and only kept one

the oldest one we have is the uthmanic versions which there are three copies

one copy is  caleld the samar qand copy which is in russia (soviet)  some where in a meseum

and i think there is one in turkey

Why do the Russians have it? isnt that an outrage?

[BlackWave]

The Sann'a manuscript found in Yemen is the oldest manuscript of the Quran, according ot this wikipedia article:-
http://en.wikipedia....na'a_manuscript

"Radiocarbon testing indicates that the parchment, and hence the lower text, most likely dates from within fifteen years of the death of the Prophet Muhammad"

[Belle.Muslimah]

Interesting still how do we know that every word in the quran we read today is 100% if the first (the actual first) written record from prophets time isnt accessable?