22 replies to this topic

[Saviour]

What is the difference between back biting and gossip can some one please give me examples on how they are different?. And how are you meant to act according to Islamic laws, if someone starts backbiting about someone else in a conversation to you or starts to gossip about someone else.

Thanks,

[Nargela]

No difference if you ask me, Both deadly sins and some of the worst out there. But are Imam gives us some very good insight to this disease.

“Ghiba  is worse than fornication because if a fornicator repents, Allah (SWT) forgives him but He does not forgive the back-biter till the person about whom he has back-bited forgives.”

Prophet Muhammad (s) once said to Imam ‘Ali (‘a): “O ‘Ali! When someone hears the backbiting of his Muslim brother committed in his presence, yet he does not rally to his assistance despite being capable of doing so, God shall humiliate him in the world and in the Hereafter.” [Al-Hurr al-`Amili, Wasa'il al-Shi`ah, vol. 8, hadith no. 16336]

Imam al-Sadiq (‘a) narrated from the Noble Messenger (s) who is once said to have forbidden both backbiting and listening to it. Then he (s) said: “Lo, whoever does a favor to his brother by refuting his backbiting upon hearing it in a gathering, God shall save him from a thousand kinds of evils in this world and in the Hereafter. And if he does not do so despite his ability to refute it, on him shall be the burden of one who commits his backbiting seventy times.”[Al-Hurr al-`Amili, Wasa'il al-Shi`ah, vol. 8, hadith no. 16316]

Imam al-Sadiq (‘a) narrated from the Prophet (s) who said: “The havoc wrought on the believer's faith by backbiting is swifter than the one wrought by aklah (a disease that consumes the flesh) in the side of his body.” [Al-Kulayni, al-Kafi, vol. 2, "Kitab al-Iman wa al-Kufr", "Bab al-Gheebah wa al-Buht", hadith no. 1]

Imam Mūsa Ibn Ja’far says, “If one speaks of a person in his absence about those of his traits which are actually present in him and people are also aware of it, it is not Ghiība. But if he mentions something which is present in the person but people are unaware of it, it would be Ghiība. Moreover if what he is says is not present in the man, it is allegation (Bukhtān).”

Edited by Nargela, 20 June 2012 - 03:09 PM.

[fightingsoul001]

If we are talking about someone and telling the truth about him. Will it be called back biting.

[Calm]

fightingsoul001, on 20 June 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

If we are talking about someone and telling the truth about him. Will it be called back biting.

Yes of course. It is because it's true it's gheebah, if it's not true it would be tuhmah , both of which are strictly forbidden in Islam.

[fightingsoul001]

Calm, on 20 June 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Yes of course. It is because it's true it's gheebah, if it's not true it would be tuhmah , both of which are strictly forbidden in Islam.

What is voice for Haq then? or voice against tyranny.

Edited by fightingsoul001, 20 June 2012 - 03:41 PM.

[Calm]

^I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking about the nafs al-lawammah?

[fightingsoul001]

If someone harm you or harm someone else and you see it.
So your telling and discussing it with other people fall into Back biting?

Edited by fightingsoul001, 20 June 2012 - 03:53 PM.

[Calm]

fightingsoul001, on 20 June 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

If someone harm you or harm someone else and you see it.
So your telling and discussing it with other people fall into Back biting?

If you're saying anything negative (or even something neutral but you know that person wouldn't like this being said about them)about a Muslim during their absence it is gheebah, ya3ni haraam even if it's true. If you want to discuss it with others, have the person present and speak all you want (while respecting the other fiqhi laws), but at least it wont be gheebah. The big problem with gheebah as opposed to many other sins, is that you're committing two offenses at once, one towards God's laws and one towards the person so istighfaar by itself is not sufficient.

[Nargela]

Calm, on 20 June 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Yes of course. It is because it's true it's gheebah, if it's not true it would be tuhmah , both of which are strictly forbidden in Islam.

This is incorrect,

If one speaks of a person in his absence about those of his traits which are actually present in him and people are also aware of it, it is not Ghiība. But if he mentions something which is present in the person but people are unaware of it, it would be Ghiība. Moreover if what he is says is not present in the man, it is allegation

fightingsoul001, on 20 June 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

If we are talking about someone and telling the truth about him. Will it be called back biting.

If one speaks of a person in his absence about those of his traits which are actually present in him and people are also aware of it, it is not Ghiība. But if he mentions something which is present in the person but people are unaware of it, it would be Ghiība. Moreover if what he is says is not present in the man, it is allegation

[Calm]

Nargela, on 20 June 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

This is incorrect,

If one speaks of a person in his absence about those of his traits which are actually present in him and people are also aware of it, it is not Ghiība. But if he mentions something which is present in the person but people are unaware of it, it would be Ghiība. Moreover if what he is says is not present in the man, it is allegation

You're mistaken, whether the person is aware of the negative things in them or not and you speak negative about them while they're absent it's gheebah. Look into the story of how the ayah of gheebah was revealed. Aisha, just signaled in with her hand that the woman who left the room was short, and the law againbst gheebah was revealed. Do short people don;t know their height? and people are not aware of it? She left the room and the prophet saw her while she was in the room, yet that hand signal meaning she's short was considered gheebah.

The only time it's negative and not a gheebah is when the talk is about a publically committed sin. Woman X does not wear hijab all the time in public. It;'s a sin, it's not a compliment, it's mentioning a sin this woman X does, however it is done by her in public, so mentioning it even if she is not present is not gheebah.

Edited by Calm, 20 June 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[fightingsoul001]

Calm, on 20 June 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

If you're saying anything negative (or even something neutral but you know that person wouldn't like this being said about them)about a Muslim during their absence it is gheebah, ya3ni haraam even if it's true. If you want to discuss it with others, have the person present and speak all you want (while respecting the other fiqhi laws), but at least it wont be gheebah. The big problem with gheebah as opposed to many other sins, is that you're committing two offenses at once, one towards God's laws and one towards the person so istighfaar by itself is not sufficient.

Police reporting is gheebah then according to your definition.
Telling people to rise up against tyrannt is gheeba because you are telling people things about a tyrant.

[Calm]

I reported to you the fiqhi ruling. It is not my own definition.

And the tyrants we've seen commit they're sins proudly and publically, you don't need to use gheebah to let people aware of their tughyaan.

Edited by Calm, 20 June 2012 - 04:26 PM.

[fightingsoul001]

Calm, on 20 June 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

I reported to you the fiqhi ruling. It is not my own definition.

And the tyrants we've seen commit they're sins proudly and publically, you don't need to use gheebah to let people aware of their tughyaan.

But you will have to let police know everything.
And you must let the people know about tyrant. Otherwise how will they rise when they are ignorant?
In case of family matters you will have to let all people of your family know, about matters in a discussion.

Otherwise how will justice be served?

[Saviour]

Lool, thanks for the replies but yh i was just confused on this. So i guess the best thing is to just defend someone when they are not present and do not say anything if someone is not present there.

[fightingsoul001]

My answer is not given yet. I have lots of questions coming into my mind. Although I myself can't and don't discuss people. But sometimes people should be discussed or how can there possibly be justice?
Like a rapist raping a girl although not publically but should be told to police or her family. Otherwise how can there be justice?

[AR2011]

is it considered gheeba if u r narrating to a friend/family member something that someone did to you and therefore wronged you with the intention of seeking advice about how to approach the situation?

what about if a friend/family asks you about what happened between you and another person and you feel that if u keep quiet, there may be a chance that this family/friend may think that you wronged this person and therefore as a precautionary measure, you wish to set out what this other person did to you so that in case someone else says something about what happened, you have at least presented ur side of the story..?

Edited by AR2011, 20 June 2012 - 06:16 PM.

[Calm]

fightingsoul001, on 20 June 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

My answer is not given yet. I have lots of questions coming into my mind. Although I myself can't and don't discuss people. But sometimes people should be discussed or how can there possibly be justice?
Like a rapist raping a girl although not publically but should be told to police or her family. Otherwise how can there be justice?

There is a difference between a sin committed secretly that harms the person himself and the sin that is a direct crime towards both God's laws and a person's right, such as the rapist example you mentioned. So say for a Zaani you cannot tell others that he's a Zaani unless you have four witnesses and the only time even with your witnesses you're allowed to tell is when at the Shar'i jury while observing the rest of the shar3s' laws . To speak of a crime to a jury to have justice take your right is different than going around discussing it with people.

AR2011, on 20 June 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

is it considered gheeba if u r narrating to a friend/family member something that someone did to you and therefore wronged you with the intention of seeking advice about how to approach the situation?

Yes, it is gheebah. You either mention the story with unknown variables (no names or descriptions/hint that lead to recognizing the person you're speaking about) to people who don't know the person and so you can seek the advice you want. OR, have the person present and wise people (who you seem to seek advice from) and explain what happened.

Quote

what about if a friend/family asks you about what happened between you and another person and you feel that if u keep quiet, there may be a chance that this family/friend may think that you wronged this person and therefore as a precautionary measure, you wish to set out what this other person did to you so that in case someone else says something about what happened, you have at least presented ur side of the story..?

As a wajib obligation you're not allowed., its gheebah. Tell them you're not discussing it not because you're the one who was wrong but because you dont want to fall in gheebah... if they want to know more then they'd have to ask you when the person is present so both can present their side of the story while none of it is gheebah.

Edited by Calm, 22 June 2012 - 12:42 PM.

[Marbles]

AR2011, on 20 June 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

is it considered gheeba if u r narrating to a friend/family member something that someone did to you and therefore wronged you with the intention of seeking advice about how to approach the situation?

If that's gheebah then it goes against the accepted human norms of logic and caution. If you can't even seek advice from your family about a person who wronged you without identifying him/her then what's left there to talk about.

I think we stretch the definition of gheebah to such a ridiculous point where everything normal suddenly becomes a sin.

[Calm]

Marbles, on 23 June 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

If that's gheebah then it goes against the accepted human norms of logic and caution. If you can't even seek advice from your family about a person who wronged you without identifying him/her then what's left there to talk about.

I think we stretch the definition of gheebah to such a ridiculous point where everything normal suddenly becomes a sin.

Au contraire, I think the strictness of gheebah is very fair because like this Islam always gives the right of the accused person to defend themselves against whatever is been talked about them, it reduces significantly the amount of lies when reporting a situation because both parties are present and it also teaches us not to give advice when we hear a one sided story.

Edited by Calm, 23 June 2012 - 06:11 PM.

[Chaotic Muslem]

Calm, on 23 June 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

Au contraire, I think the strictness of gheebah is very fair because like this Islam always gives the right of the accused person to defend themselves against whatever is been talked about them, it reduces significantly the amount of lies when reporting a situation because both parties are present and it also teaches us not to give advice when we hear a one sided story.

thought gheeba isnt lies but true shameful or traits that the person dont like to be spread about him
no?

[Calm]

Chaotic Muslem, on 23 June 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

thought gheeba isnt lies but true shameful or traits that the person dont like to be spread about him
no?

I did not say gheebah are lies, read all my previous posts in this thread. I said having a strict law like this reduces the amount of lies, since even the truth when negative is not allowed to be spread.

[Chaotic Muslem]

AR2011, on 20 June 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

is it considered gheeba if u r narrating to a friend/family member something that someone did to you and therefore wronged you with the intention of seeking advice about how to approach the situation?

what about if a friend/family asks you about what happened between you and another person and you feel that if u keep quiet, there may be a chance that this family/friend may think that you wronged this person and therefore as a precautionary measure, you wish to set out what this other person did to you so that in case someone else says something about what happened, you have at least presented ur side of the story..?

i thought gheebah is about traits and such , like being a liar or mean ,cant you say what happened without describing teh traits of the person?

[AR2011]

^ i dont know? can u narrate what happened to a third party? if what happened hurt you, is there not an inevitability that the way in which u will be narrating it is skewed and may contain more than just what happened - perhaps hints of that person's personality/traits that led them to do whatever they did.

ultimately, its not healthy to bottle things up when u r hurt. practically speaking, if u cant use ur family for emotional support then if someone has hurt u, ur supposed to keep it in?