169 replies to this topic

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Aliaabbas, on 21 June 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

Ok, how about mentally challenged?

how about genetically challenged?

[Maitham]

Kaniz e Zahra, on 21 June 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

No especially when they said 'equal in hasab'and 'equal in blood' so it can't be taken general.

Why can't it be was not the subject "your" to a single person ? or was the address to a whole group of people?

[Aliaabbas]

Kaniz e Zahra, on 21 June 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

how about genetically challenged?

Well, I guess that happens with too much inbreeding

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Maitham, on 21 June 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

Why can't it be was not the subject "your" to a single person ? or was the address to a whole group of people?

Obviously to group of people,as they refer to their dignity of not taking dirt of hands ,sadqa then.Which meant it was collective.

[Maitham]

What other hadith do you have now that those two seem to be able to have a different possibility ?

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Maitham, on 21 June 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

What other hadith do you have now that those two seem to be able to have a different possibility ?

1. Allama Majlisee R.A. In his book Jala – ul – Uyoon states with references to Manaqab –
E – Khawrzami and other books of Shias and Sunnis who have narrated it from Ameer
– Al – Momeen , Umm – E – Salma and Sulaiman – E – Farsi (r.a.) that when
Fatima reached the age of puberty many nobles from Quresh, the wealthiest, pious,
and respected ones approached the Prophet to ask her hand in marriage. The
prophet always turned his face away and expressed dislike for such requests.
(chapter : Fatima’s marriage – p113)  
2. Abi has narrated from some companions of prophets . Anyone asked for the
hand of Fatima , Prophet always turned his face away from him. When he
wanted to get her married he spoke to Ali in privacy. (Bihar volume 43 part 1 of
tenth, her life history chapter. Her marriage p101).
3. Prophet said “Were Ali not there, there would have been no ‘‘kufv’ ’ for
Fatima .
4. Younus bin Zibian narrates that Imam Sadiq said if the Ameer – Al – Momineen
had not been there, there would have been no ‘kufv’ for Fatima.
(Bihar volume 43 chapter 3 part 5 page 97)
The above traditions clearly prove that the ladies from OURS cannot go to YOURS
group or else prophet would have accepted the request from YOUR class and proved the
validity of any woman’s marriage with any other man’. He would not say something he would not

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra, 21 June 2012 - 07:04 PM.

[Maitham]

Kaniz e Zahra, on 21 June 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

Obviously to group of people,as they refer to their dignity of not taking dirt of hands ,sadqa then.Which meant it was collective.

Sister what you said was it was said to a man asking for the hand of the daughter which puts the whole hadith in context of a particular as a whole group of people cannot marry one woman.

Kaniz e Zahra, on 21 June 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

1. Allama Majlisee R.A. In his book Jala – ul – Uyoon states with references to Manaqab –
E – Khawrzami and other books of Shias and Sunnis who have narrated it from Ameer
– Al – Momeen , Umm – E – Salma and Sulaiman – E – Farsi (r.a.) that when
Fatima reached the age of puberty many nobles from Quresh, the wealthiest, pious,
and respected ones approached the Prophet to ask her hand in marriage. The
prophet always turned his face away and expressed dislike for such requests.
(chapter : Fatima’s marriage – p113)  

it is another particular of a high ranking lady as fatimah with another high ranking man Imam ali which rational thinking would tell you that they were really the correct mix. what else do you have ?

Edited by Maitham, 21 June 2012 - 07:14 PM.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

His action give following conclusions:-  
a) Fatima remained in WE/US category.
It is not possible to assume that all those desirous of this marriage were not Momins. No
one other than ‘Momin’ could have dared approaching the Prophet for this purpose.
c) He rejected Momins.
d) He rejected wealthies.
e) He rejected Qure[Edited Out]es.  

It is continuity of post above,here you can clearly understand where does 'kufv' applies.

Maitham, on 21 June 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

Sister what you said was it was said to a man asking for the and of the daughter which puts the whole hadith in context of a particular as a whole group of people cannot marry one woman.



it is another particular of a high ranking lady as fatimah with another high ranking man Imam ali which rational thinking would tell you that they wee really the correct mix. what else do you have ?

Brother kindly read the whole thread,you may get your answers from Sunnah of Masoomeen(as),i don't want to repeat the same stuff now.
Ok give me a leave now i have to sleep.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra, 21 June 2012 - 07:07 PM.

[Maitham]

I would rather you share the hadiths with me instead of reading this whole thread.

I want to see the proofs from ahadith. and only ahadith.

we are told in hadith to marry for faith.

Good sleep sister. Allah hafez

Edited by Maitham, 21 June 2012 - 07:18 PM.

[Kamranistan]

Let's all take a break from showing our awesome akhlaq to each other. Instead let's all start kissing my hands.

Edited by Kamran-Syed, 21 June 2012 - 08:30 PM.

[GreyMatter]

Kaniz e Zahra, on 21 June 2012 - 04:03 AM, said:

Quran did n't clearly elaborate the names of Aimma(as) so you won't believe in them too?
How can something practiced by Aimma(as) be altered over time? Yes those were tyrannical times,but these are not that is one of the advantage that there are millions of Syeds in today's world,there is no Taqqiyah,Syeds are much educated ,and established now.Its not difficult to find one if intention is good,and material desires are controlled.

So if you wanted to refute the Quranic aya, why did you mention it in the first place?
The Sunnah of the Prophet   and his progeny is of course for us to follow. There is so much to it, but certain practices can alter over time to a certain degree.

The Prophet did marry multiple times, and married a young girl too, which was the norm and very common in those times. So do you support this Sunnah in today's society?
Just like how you support that a Syeda HAS to marry a Syed only?

Yes the Syeds of today are educated, but so are our non-Syed brothers.
Material desires should be controlled, but I see no harm in a Syeda marrying a non-Syed with a strong Eiman, and who is well established and educated.

Edited by GreyMatter, 21 June 2012 - 08:45 PM.

[Shia_Debater]

Can we please bring the views of the scholars of both the past and the present and see what their views were

Here is the view of Sayyid Sistani

Quote

Question :
Can a Sayyid girl marry a non-Sayyid man?

Answer :
It is permissible and there is no objection to it.

http://www.sistani.o...=616687&id=1250

Edited by Shia_Debater, 21 June 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[GreyMatter]

Shia_Debater, on 21 June 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

Can we please bring the views of the scholars of both the past and the present and see what their views were

Here is the view of Sayyid Sistani

Question :
Can a Sayyid girl marry a non-Sayyid man?

Answer :
It is permissible and there is no objection to it.

http://www.sistani.o...=616687&id=1250

I was just about to post this but you beat me to it lol

Edited by GreyMatter, 21 June 2012 - 09:19 PM.

[Maitham]

Found this from another topic here on shiachat

7- The daughter of Imam Syed Roohullah Khomeini r.a, one of the greatest non-infallible Awliyah Allah of shi'ite history married his daughter to non-syed man as well. One of the daughters of Ayatollah Al Khoei was married to a Non Syed as well.

8- Ayatollah Mehdi Hadavi's mother is a sayyida but his father is not. That is why he wears a white turban.

9- The condition for marriage that Imam Khomeini (sa) gives in his resaleh is:

#2397. A Moslem woman cannot be contracted by an infidel nor can a Moslem man marry an infidel woman in a permanent fashion. However there is no concern in concubinage with those women who are among People of the Book such as the Jews and Christians.

[A Clarification of Questions: an unabridged translation of Resaleh Towzih al-Masael by Ayatollah Sayyed Ruhollah Mousavi Khomeini, page 316]

There is no mention of prohibition of sayyid/non-sayyid marriage. The fundamental condition for marriage is the partner must be Muslim.

10- Late Head of Hawzah al Najaf, Ayatollah al Udhama Syed Al Khoi al Musavi r.a passed the fatwa:

The Nikah of independant woman with a slave - of Hashimi'te woman with non-Hashimi'te man - of Arab woman with a non-Arab man and vice versa is allowed. (Shia Reference: Minhaj al-Saliheen (By Sayyid Abul Qasim al-Mousavi al-Khoei), vol. II , Kitab al -Nikah.)

11- Ayatollah al Udhama Sheikh Safi Gulpaygani declares marriage of Syed with Non Syed as Permissible and Legal in Islam (Shia Reference: Wasilat al-Nijat, p. 388)

12- Ayatollah Syed Ali Hussaini al Seestani declares marriage of Syed with Non Syed as Permissible and Legal in Islam (Shia Reference: Risalah, Book of Nikah, issue #221)

13- Ayatollah Syed Ali Hussaini al Khamenei declares marriage of Syed with Non Syed as Permissible and Legal in Islam (Shia Reference: Istift'at by Ayat Khemenei)

14- Fatwas by Ayatollah al Udhama Imam Syed Mohammad Shirazi and Sadiq Hussaini al Shirazi on Marriage and Ethnicity/lineage discrimination:

Question: Marriage and ethnic background

There has been a problem that has been around for a while. Lately it has caused myself and a lot of other peoples much trouble and grief.

People from cultures other than our own do not allow their daughters to marry those who come from a different ethnic and cultural background even though both are Muslim. What is the ruling regarding such a practice? For example the Arab parents of their daughter will not allow her to marry another Muslim because he is not an Arab.

Is not such a practice wrong according to our Shari'ah? We were of the view that Islam did not permit such discrimination between Muslims regardless of their ethnicity and culture.

Answer:

Bismillah al-Rahmaan al-Raheem

Practices such as those outlined in your email, and discrimination on grounds of ethnic backgrounds have no place anywhere in Islamic teachings and Islam does not condone such practices whether in the case of marriage or any other aspect of life.

The criteria in marriage, as specified by Rasulollah, peace be upon him, are adherence to Islam and good manners.

On the other hand, when two candidates, say of equal qualities of faith and manners, approach the family, the parents may make a judgement, or on grounds of freedom of choice, may prefer one candidate to another. In this case this may not be called discrimination. But at the end of the day, it should be born in mind that the final decision is that of the girl, if the girl does not choose to marry someone her parents wish her to, then she is free to do so and no one can force her to do anything against her wishes.

Was-Salaam

15- Sheikh Najafi-Hilli in Jawahir al-Kalam (the largest, 45 volume, book on derivation of laws of fiqh) has provided the examples of Syedah and Non Syed marriages in history of Islam from time of Ahlulbayt a.s and refuted the claim that it did not happen with the Prophetic family, by giving several reference examples, the only one which is in dispute is Umar's marriage with Umm Kulthum.

For those who dont know, Jawahir is a great work where the rulings have been referenced and explained as opposed to a normal risala where you see the conclusion but not the reasoning. All the modern risalahs are based on this book and follow its model. Sheikh Hilli -Najafi has referenced evidences of people from Banu Hashim marrying non-Hashemites.

16- One of the Most Famous Shia Scholars and one of the pillars in Ithna Ashariyyah Imamiyah Shia Madhab, Allahmah Mohaqiq Al Hilli r.a writes in his book "Sharai al Islam Fi Masail al Halal wal Haram" (ÔÑÇÆÚ ÇáÇÓáÇã Ýí ãÓÇÆá ÇáÍáÇá æÇáÍÑÇã) Vol.2, Page No.56 that marriage of a Hashmi woman with a Non Hashmi woman and vice versa is Jaiz (permitted) in Islam:

"Permitted it is for a Shareef/Noble/Free woman to marry a Free Slave; an Arabic woman to marry an Ajami (non arab) man and a Hashmite woman to marry a Non-Hashmite and the reverse/vice versa. And that is the deed/ruling of those who are incharge of Religion and schools of thought."

17- Another pillar of the shia faith, Sheikh Mufeed r.a says in Tahzeeb al Ahkam Vol 7, Chapter 33 (Baab al Kafaa Fil Nikah), P.394 declares that muslims without any exception of Nasb/lineage are equivalent to each other for marriage purpose:

The Sheikh, peace be upon him said: The Free Muslims are KUFU of each other in Islam.

and then the sheikh r.a mentions a number of traditions (which i have already mentioned earlier from his same book) to support his point from the nusoos al deen / traditions of ahlulbayt a.s

18- Aalam al Huda, Shareef Murtada al Musavi (Najeeb al Tarafayn Syed) and the highest authority of Shia in Baghdad in his time and the brother of eminent scholar Shareef al Radi r.a (the author of Nahj al Balagha) also allows without doubt the marriage of a Hashimi woman with Non Hashimi man who comes from a chaste family with no bad reputation. I shall quote a fatwa from his book on fiqh now:

Shia Reference: Risail al Shareef al Murtada Vol1, Page 300

Edited by Maitham, 21 June 2012 - 10:32 PM.

[Maitham]

^ if any dispute about these please make note as i am only copy/pasting from someone elses long post

Edited by Maitham, 21 June 2012 - 10:39 PM.

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

The crux of the issue has been the daughters of imam miss al kazim a.s . History sparsely covers the family of the aimma a.s. if we had that it would have been a great help. Ahadees do not specify such restrictions and someone doesn't want to do it then don't do it buy for God's sake do not call people harami and stuff. Firstly because it is not a good thing to do and secondly his religion allowed such a marriage as the one he was under the itaat allowed it. So if the one who u are under itaat doesn't allow it then don't marry your daughters elsewhere.

And comparing the kufv of Fatima s.a with general ladies from her offspring is qiyas in gross.

For arguments sake and to keep in line with bad comments I have a question.

Women during the time of hazrath nuh a.s had periods (menstural) once a year and they were told not to mingle with non mahrams but they did and Allah azwj inflicted monthly menstural cycles upon them and ordered men not to marry among them but people somehow mingled and 300 years after nuh a.s (during hazrath isa a.s' time) there were few and fewer 500 years later. And this continued in few  families till imam sadiq a.S's time when people could also marry prostitutes as the level of indecency exceeded the extent and to correct a prostitute it was allowed to marry. I can understand that syed women were pious ladies and were protected and the mothers of our aimma a.s who were not sayyid's must have belonged to that special category of women too because we read in in ziyarah about arhaamil mutahara.

I know a Hindu Brahmin family who still haveva n yearly cycle(overheard sister's conversation) . Its most probable that they were migrants from hazrath nuh a.S's ummah and still did not marry outside but left deen ul haneef. Are there such pious calibered ladies among shia women around the world? I think its hard to find them .

So if any of you ladies compare yourself with syedda a.s then I will also come up with a weird analogy which would be as distasteful as it sounds. Only bhooka bhariya is supposed to get he most pious man /women in town . I am normal and i am happy with simple minded shia woman who doesn't know much about religion but acts as if she is religious.

Ya ali Madad

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Maitham, on 21 June 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

I would rather you share the hadiths with me instead of reading this whole thread.

I want to see the proofs from ahadith. and only ahadith.

we are told in hadith to marry for faith.

Good sleep sister. Allah hafez

Even if there is a single Hadees its sufficient,particularly when there is a sunnah of Aimma(as).I feel sick by repeating same thing again and again.

Shia_Debater, on 21 June 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

Can we please bring the views of the scholars of both the past and the present and see what their views were

Here is the view of Sayyid Sistani

Brother,We have to follow them in furoo e deen not in Asool e deen,when Masoomeen(as) had done something,approve or disapprove something,we don't need fatwas then.

GreyMatter, on 21 June 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

So if you wanted to refute the Quranic aya, why did you mention it in the first place?
The Sunnah of the Prophet   and his progeny is of course for us to follow. There is so much to it, but certain practices can alter over time to a certain degree.

The Prophet did marry multiple times, and married a young girl too, which was the norm and very common in those times. So do you support this Sunnah in today's society?
Just like how you support that a Syeda HAS to marry a Syed only?

Yes the Syeds of today are educated, but so are our non-Syed brothers.
Material desires should be controlled, but I see no harm in a Syeda marrying a non-Syed with a strong Eiman, and who is well established and educated.

Yes i do support every sunnah of our Prophet(saww) is applicable in our times,thats another thing young girls don't like to marry aged men,but it does n't become forbidden over time.

siraatoaliyinhaqqun, on 22 June 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

The crux of the issue has been the daughters of imam miss al kazim a.s . History sparsely covers the family of the aimma a.s. if we had that it would have been a great help. Ahadees do not specify such restrictions and someone doesn't want to do it then don't do it buy for God's sake do not call people harami and stuff. Firstly because it is not a good thing to do and secondly his religion allowed such a marriage as the one he was under the itaat allowed it. So if the one who u are under itaat doesn't allow it then don't marry your daughters elsewhere.

And comparing the kufv of Fatima s.a with general ladies from her offspring is qiyas in gross.

For arguments sake and to keep in line with bad comments I have a question.

Women during the time of hazrath nuh a.s had periods (menstural) once a year and they were told not to mingle with non mahrams but they did and Allah azwj inflicted monthly menstural cycles upon them and ordered men not to marry among them but people somehow mingled and 300 years after nuh a.s (during hazrath isa a.s' time) there were few and fewer 500 years later. And this continued in few  families till imam sadiq a.S's time when people could also marry prostitutes as the level of indecency exceeded the extent and to correct a prostitute it was allowed to marry. I can understand that syed women were pious ladies and were protected and the mothers of our aimma a.s who were not sayyid's must have belonged to that special category of women too because we read in in ziyarah about arhaamil mutahara.

I know a Hindu Brahmin family who still haveva n yearly cycle(overheard sister's conversation) . Its most probable that they were migrants from hazrath nuh a.S's ummah and still did not marry outside but left deen ul haneef. Are there such pious calibered ladies among shia women around the world? I think its hard to find them .

So if any of you ladies compare yourself with syedda a.s then I will also come up with a weird analogy which would be as distasteful as it sounds. Only bhooka bhariya is supposed to get he most pious man /women in town . I am normal and i am happy with simple minded shia woman who doesn't know much about religion but acts as if she is religious.

Ya ali Madad

No one was comparing kufv of Syeda(as) with ours,but they are examples for us,and we only understand whats the importance of kufv is when we read ,how Prophet(saww) said ''She was to remain unmarried without kufv'' so it makes clear the importance of kufv,its not comparison.If you try to open your mind for understanding a bit.
What an analogy you made,the one who left deen e hanif are pious and their likes are hard to find in Shia women??Shia women are too far fetched idea,a hindu lady can't even reach to an Ahl e Kitab's status,let alone Shia,and even Syeda.
How are you so sure about their periods cycle,when they get when they don't,even if its true,its not related with the topic.The cycles of Hindu women are not here to decide for marriage issue

Maitham, on 21 June 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

^ if any dispute about these please make note as i am only copy/pasting from someone elses long post

Even if one or two marjas are against it,that means there are reasons for them as well,quantity does n't matter,but still taqleed is in matters of furoo only.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra, 22 June 2012 - 01:24 AM.

[Kismet110]

Salaams Ya Ali Madad

It was my intention to stay out of this thread because it's an emotive (and very personal) subject and usually leads to a breakdown in ikhlaq pretty quickly.

Someone mentioned the ruling of Sayyid Sistani above to which I want to add. About 7/8 years ago people from my community went on ziyaraat to Iraq where they met the Sayyid. This question came up and he gave this answer: "For you this is not allowed as it is viewed in a negative light in your culture and can bring disrepute to the deen so better you refrain from it."

His answer was in context to the person asking so it's not as clear-cut as it first seems.  A brother above mentioned itiyat (precaution) so if you're in a position where there is doubt (for you) you can and should exercise it.

No disrespect intended but listing ghair-Masoom who married their daughters to non-Sayyids doesn't show the whole picture; for everyone that did there may be 99 that didn't (i.e. explicitly married their daughters to another Sayyid) - so if someone compiled that list would it be hujjat on you?

But the above is a digression anyway as the OP asked the for the classical scholars views and this is not a fiqhi matter anyway.

The racist overtones of some people on this thread is ironic; how can a person accuse another of having superiority complex then behave in the same way based on geography rather than hereditary grounds and not see the hypocrisy in that?

If you are 100% confident that what you do is halaal then go ahead and do it but really, I don't think anyone can impose on another a view about something as personal (and delicate) as their daughters future marriage

Maybe it would be better for everyone if this thread were locked ASAP as it's going nowhere and becoming quite personal.

ALI

[gajarkahalva]

This should get locked. Some of the people here need to take a good look at themselves. Please show some respect to each other.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Yes i feel the same there is no point of arguing anymore,as for brother Methum's insistence on Hadees,i don't think there can be something more important when Prophet(saww) emphasized kufv issue to the extent that He ,without kufv could n't marry His daughter ever as well as Aimma(as).So how can a non syed be Syeda's kufv? When Allah says He has given superiority to Aal e Imran(as),then how comes inferior a kufv?It needs no further explanation,and i am tired of unnecessary arguments.
As mentioned above the thread was about views of classical scholars which i gave,this thread is done now.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra, 22 June 2012 - 10:40 AM.