190 replies to this topic

[ImAli]

I am lazy and don't feel like reading the last few pages....so will ask! How did this turn into a thread about slavery?

[Shia_Debater]

ImAli, on 08 July 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

I am lazy and don't feel like reading the last few pages....so will ask! How did this turn into a thread about slavery?

Someone asked AliSaleh if he had left Islam because he took Shia Jafari off his religion (or interests) and he said yeah after the slavery thread and the discussion stemmed from there if I'm not mistaken

[Ismahan007]

shadow_of_light, on 08 July 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Encouraging people to worship Allah and not idols was the first and the biggest mission of the Prophet, yet he had many problems to make people aware and finally, after 23 years, he found an opportunity to enter Kaba and destroy idols.

your erroneous understanding of the prophet early days of preaching Islam needs a bit of correction; the prophet was not told to encourage ppl to worship Allah and not the idols as you said but He was told to completely eradicate idol worshiping from the lives of the ppl starting off in that area (arabia). that was the first and biggest challenges the prophet had to take. slavery was nothing compared to how ppl were attached to their idol worshiping. it was the central theme of the ppl in those days and time. it's what caused all that blood shed and sufferings the prophet and his followers had to go through in history. yes, the prophet did eventually destroy the idols but he already declared his war against the practice from day one. so your comparison of the two (idol worshiping and slavery) doesn't make sense. there's no evidence of the prophet trying to abolish the system, he only brought reforms into it.

shadow_of_light, on 08 July 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

When a person believes in Allah and afterlife, when he understands Islam and its moral instructions, he consequently will understand that slavery is against humanity.

the prophet and the imams didn't see it that way.

shadow_of_light, on 08 July 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

All people must be free (I dont mean absolute freedom, I mean not being slave) to find opportunities to manage their own lives. When we take somebody as a slave, we deprive him from many things and many opportunities. We completely affect their lives and their fate!

true but it depends on your understanding of a free or a slave person. a person can be a slave (owned) but be a free person and vice-versa. (dont know if that makes sense to you tho).

shadow_of_light, on 08 July 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Now my question from you is that how will you feel if somebody takes you and your family members as slaves?

what I'd feel is truly irrelevant. we're discussing a matter from share3a point of view and emotional reasons doesn't really count here.

shadow_of_light, on 08 July 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

If Islam abolished slavery immediately, many problems would happen since these slaves did not have any home, money, etc. What could the community do with a mass of homeless poor people? So Islam took a gradual approach.

As to worshiping idols, it did not have such consequences.

took a gradual approach but didn't abolish the system, did it? why are you so desperate to believe in something you already believe in? you want to convince yourself islam abolished slavery when it didn't. It did try to change the system and gave rights to the slaves but bottom line is that it did not abolish it. you're yet to bring any proof for it being abolished except justifications from ur own. no one denies the central theme of justice in islam. we're muslims, we think the way islam thinks, quit western influenced ideas and accept islam allows slavery. that's the safest way to secure ur faith.

ילדת מלך, on 08 July 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

Agreed--to both of your above-mentioned points---( ironical, isn't it ? )

most likely no one will deconvert from debates/discussions on forums, but yeh you always have sharp way of analyzing things i guess. thanks for pointing that out to me

Edited by Ismahan007, 08 July 2012 - 02:22 PM.

[Haydar Husayn]

Look, it's not completely impossible that Islam did seek to gradually eradicate slavery (I think it's highly unlikely, but not absolutely impossible). In fact, in an ideal world where everyone was a Muslim, or even a world where nobody was at war with the Muslims, then slavery would be impossible.

Anyway, the point is that someone who believes this may have views that are rather dubious from the historical and factual point of view, but they are not denying the Qur'an. So it may be best to leave such a person in peace, and let them believe what they want rather than to cause doubt and confusion in their minds. Some people have more tolerance for harsh realities than others.

If someone holds a view that is in blatant contradiction to Islam (like owning a slave being evil in all circumstances), then clearly they should be corrected, but this is not such a situation.


Aside from that, you guys are all derailing my thread!

[Ismahan007]

^^the sis above completely rejects the concept of slavery. shouldn't one make clear for her instead? I know what you mean but the thing is many ppl would just deny without having evidence, its better to make clear for ppl and take a position instead of following their desire on a matter concerning religion rather submit to God's rules.

I didn't notice we were derailing ur topic, really sorry. hope u haven't taken any offence.

Edited by Ismahan007, 08 July 2012 - 06:49 PM.

[Haydar Husayn]

Ismahan007, on 08 July 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

^^the sis above completely rejects the concept of slavery. shouldn't one make clear for her instead? I know what you mean but the thing is many ppl would just deny without having evidence, its better to make clear for ppl and take a position instead of following their desire on a matter concerning religion rather submit to God's rules.

Does she reject it completely? I didn't get that feeling from her posts. Rather, she seems to have the common view that slavery was allowed by Islam, but with the intention that it gradually becomes eradicated.

Quote

I didn't notice we were derailing ur topic, really sorry. hope u haven't taken any offence.

I wasn't really being serious. I myself have been contributing to derailing it by taking part in this slavery discussion.

[Ismahan007]

Haydar Husayn, on 08 July 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Does she reject it completely? I didn't get that feeling from her posts. Rather, she seems to have the common view that slavery was allowed by Islam, but with the intention that it gradually becomes eradicated.

maybe you need to read her posts again to see she doesn't accept the concept completely. she believes Islam 'eradicated' slavery 'gradually' so its no longer accepted in the religion. she also said 'slavery is against humanity' and some other things too which made me think she rejects the concept.

Haydar Husayn, on 08 July 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

I wasn't really being serious. I myself have been contributing to derailing it by taking part in this slavery discussion.

it was interesting discussion anyway.

Edited by Ismahan007, 08 July 2012 - 07:05 PM.

[Aarash_Australia]

shadow_of_light, on 09 July 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

If Islam agrees with slavery, why does it encourage people to free the slaves?

What is the definition of slavery in your opinion? I mean, in your point of view, whom are we allowed to take as slaves?

I am not the only person who says Islam abolished slavery gradually, many scholars say it.

yes, but above you misrepresented what the Qu'ran says...

[hameedeh]

Slavery existed before Islam. Prophet Muhammad SA taught not to discriminate against slaves and poor people, that a person's taqwa is the most important thing. Freeing a slave was a good deed and eventually slavery was eradicated in the Muslim countries.

See Chapter 4, Slaves in the History of Islam. http://www.al-islam.org/slavery/

[Haydar Husayn]

hameedeh, on 16 July 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

eventually slavery was eradicated in the Muslim countries.

Yes, because the West forced them to eradicate it.

[Haydar Husayn]

Jebreil, on 16 July 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

Haydar Husayn

Is that a bad thing that we don't have slaves anymore, apart from prisoners of war?

Even prisoners of war aren't taken as slaves anymore. See for example the conflict between Hezbollah and Israel, where Israeli captives could have been taken as slaves, but marjas forbade it.

As for whether it is a bad thing, then it's hard for me to believe anything good can come from making the halal haram, but generally slavery as it existed before was not Islamic, so I'm not sorry to see that go. If the choice is between unislamic slavery and unislamic abolition, then the latter is probably preferable.

[ABA]

Shia_Debater, on 08 July 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

Someone asked AliSaleh if he had left Islam because he took Shia Jafari off his religion (or interests) and he said yeah after the slavery thread and the discussion stemmed from there if I'm not mistaken

Doubt if he ever was one - I called it from the day I arrived.  Most likely he is Bahai.  Read my thread on Bahais.

AliSaleh, on 06 July 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

thanks but im done with mosques and shia scholars.  ive already left and just need to figure out what suits me best now.

Why not just return to original faith of Bahaism or Judaism? That way you don't have to pretend you are Shia.  You never fooled me.

Edited by ABA, 05 August 2012 - 11:10 PM.

[ABA]

I've see a lot of weird theories about Zoroastrians (Fire worshipers etc.).  First, let's point out that it is an old religion: Older than Judaism, Christianity and Islam.  In the video, the man explains that their pre-Islamic religious rituals involved water and fire, and included cleaning the family home, and wearing clean clothes, and putting an end to bad thoughts that had accumulated during the year, etc. ... All of this was done as a part of their festivities.  Obviously I'm not trying convert anyone to Zoroastrianism, but by the same token I think if the followers of Osama Bin Laden that troll this site see that Zoroastrians are just normal people (and incidentally they are very good and kind people), it will take the mystery out it for you.  Honestly, I've seen some really bizarre theories about Zartoshtis.  

Edited by ABA, 06 August 2012 - 03:27 AM.

[AliSaleh]

ABA, on 05 August 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

Doubt if he ever was one - I called it from the day I arrived.  Most likely he is Bahai.  Read my thread on Bahais.


Why not just return to original faith of Bahaism or Judaism? That way you don't have to pretend you are Shia.  You never fooled me.

Thank you for your opinion and incorrect assumtion about me.  good luck with your blog my sunni hamvatan.  You never fooled me.