54 replies to this topic

[Darth Vader]

Quote

So I take it Shaykh Mufeed was also a "muqassir

This is the exact problem with the non-Shia. They think whatever they read in their books is the word of RasoolAllah even if its a blasphemous hadith by Abu Huraira or Ayesha. And in a strikingly similar fashion, your eyes are closed to all the counter-evidence which I'm not going to copy/paste again and dignify your blindness to it. Scroll up and read.

[Kismet110]

^^^

The time & effort you exert to find ways of mild denigration of Holy Imams in matters not concerning usool or furoo.

And if you're not convinced of natural deaths then honestly - why be so adamant in insisting it's likely?

This is what br Muhib kindly posted above (in case you missed it):

حَدَّثَنا مُحَمَّد بن مُوسَى بن المُتِوَكِّل‏ رَضِىَ اللهُ عَنْهُ قالَ حَدَّثَنا عَلِيٍّ بن إِبراهِيم بن هاشِمٍ عَن أبِيهِ عَن أبي الصلت عَبد السلام بن صالح الهروي قالَ سَمِعتُ الرِّضا عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ يَقُولُ: واللَّهِ مَا مِنَّا إِلا مَقْتُولٌ شَهِيدٌ

Muhammad ibn Musa ibn al-Mutawakkil - may God be pleased with him - narrated that Ali ibn Ibrahim ibn Hashem quoted on the authority of his father, on the authority of Abil Salt al-Harawi that he had heard Al-Reza (s) say, “By God! None of us, but will be killed and become a martyr.”

Source: Uyoon Al Akhbar Ar Riza Chapter 66 Hadeeth 9


وذهب كثير من أصحابنا إلى أن الائمة خرجوا من الدنيا على الشهادة، واستدلوا بقول الصادق عليه السلام: والله ما منا إلا مقتول شهيد

"And it has come from many of our companions that the Imam's went from this world on Shahadat and used as evidence the saying of Imam Sadiq , "By God! None of us, but will be killed and become a martyr."

Source: Bihar Al Anwar, Allama Majlisi, Volume 27, Page 209

ALI

[Nocturne]

macisaac, on 11 June 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

I found another error in the list Saduq provided.  It listed Ibrahim b. al-Walid as the one who killed Imam al-Baqir عليه السلام.  But, Ibrahim did not rule until a very brief time in 744 (then he abdicated and fled in fear of his enemies), while the Imam had already died in 732.  The caliph at his time was actually Hisham b. `Abd al-Malik, who ruled from 724-743.  

How exactly is this an error? Who was Ibrahim b. al-Walid? He was cursed nephew of the cursed Hisham. Ibrahim's direct involvement in poisoning Imam is very much possible. Did Shaykh Saduq say this happened when Ibrahim was the caliph?

Quote

It's pretty evident that whoever came up with this was able to associate the famous names of oppressors with the right time period (e.g. Harun in the time of Musa al-Kazhim (a)), but for the less well known ones had to take guesses (and sometimes got it wrong).  That shows that this wasn't really standing on firm historical ground to say the least..

Can you clarify your statement above because it sounds like someone made the famous caliphs timeline fit with that of every Imam deliberately, without any sort of truth in it.

[Haydar Husayn]

Kismet110, on 12 June 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

The time & effort you exert to find ways of mild denigration of Holy Imams in matters not concerning usool or furoo.

How do I denigrate them?

Quote

And if you're not convinced of natural deaths then honestly - why be so adamant in insisting it's likely?

I am not adamant in insisting it's likely. I never took a strong position one way or the other. I simply stated that there was an alternative view, and that this is something worth exploring. I don't see the big deal.

Quote

This is what br Muhib kindly posted above (in case you missed it):

حَدَّثَنا مُحَمَّد بن مُوسَى بن المُتِوَكِّل‏ رَضِىَ اللهُ عَنْهُ قالَ حَدَّثَنا عَلِيٍّ بن إِبراهِيم بن هاشِمٍ عَن أبِيهِ عَن أبي الصلت عَبد السلام بن صالح الهروي قالَ سَمِعتُ الرِّضا عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ يَقُولُ: واللَّهِ مَا مِنَّا إِلا مَقْتُولٌ شَهِيدٌ

Muhammad ibn Musa ibn al-Mutawakkil - may God be pleased with him - narrated that Ali ibn Ibrahim ibn Hashem quoted on the authority of his father, on the authority of Abil Salt al-Harawi that he had heard Al-Reza (s) say, “By God! None of us, but will be killed and become a martyr.”

Source: Uyoon Al Akhbar Ar Riza Chapter 66 Hadeeth 9

No, I didn't miss it, and in fact this hadith apparently has a Sahih chain (as Nader Zaveri has informed me). However, Nader also said that he agreed with Shaykh Mufeed that there reports were extremely confused. In light of what macisaac has said, it would appear that at least one of the people responsible for ordering the killing of one of the Imams has been misidentified.

[Al-Mufeed]

Quote

In light of what macisaac has said, it would appear that at least one of the people responsible for ordering the killing of one of the Imams has been misidentified.

Miss identification of who the killer was - is very different from denying the killing took place at all, if your problem is with the identification of the killer or the details with all the circumstances surrounding the death make it clear that is what you mean.

Quote

No, I didn't miss it, and in fact this hadith apparently has a Sahih chain (as Nader Zaveri has informed me). However, Nader also said that he agreed with Shaykh Mufeed that there reports were extremely confused.

Who can disagree? Many of the narrations are confusing but that doesn't mean it didn't take place. What we have is an issue on the details - not an issue with the over all picture. If you would of asked as well the authenticity of these narrations could have been told to you.

It's very obvious every Imam was murdered and I am telling you again that what Alamah Majlisi said here:

Quote

نقل ذلك الشيخ المجلسي قدس سره ثم علق عليه بقوله: أقول: مع ورود الأخبار الكثيرة الدالة عموما على هذا الأمر، والأخبار المخصوصة الدالة على شهادة أكثرهم وكيفيتها - كما سيأتي في أبواب تواريخ وفاتهم عليهم السلام - لا سبيل إلى الحكم برده وكونه من الإرجاف. نعم ليس فيمن سوى أمير المؤمنين وفاطمة والحسن والحسين وموسى بن جعفر وعلي بن موسى عليهم السلام أخبار متواترة توجب القطع بوقوعه، بل إنما تورث الظن القوي بذلك، ولم يقم دليل على نفيه، وقرائن أحوالهم وأحوال مخالفيهم شاهدة بذلك، لا سيما فيمن مات في حبسهم وتحت يدهم. ولعل مراده [أي الشيخ المفيد] رحمه الله أيضا نفي التواتر والقطع، لا رد الأخبار). ثم بعد ذكر خبري مولانا الإمام الحسن المجتبى عليه أفضل الصلاة والسلام: ما منا إلا مقتول أو مسموم، و: ما منا إلا مسموم أو مقتول) قال الشيخ المجلسي رضوان الله عليه : - سيأتي تمام الخبرين في أبواب تاريخه عليه السلام إن شاء الله تعالى ، وسيأتي في أبواب وفاة كل منهم عليهم السلام ما يدل

^gives the best explanation for Shaikh Mufeed 's statements. Because other wise it doesn't make any sense at all - it wouldn't even be logical (as has been shown earlier).