54 replies to this topic

[macisaac]

Al-Mufeed, on 10 June 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

Regaurding Ruqayah and Umm Kulthum Alama Amini quotes sources in ghadeer saying that they both died to abuses received from their husband.

You really believe that?  And then that after the first dying due to her husband abusing her, the Prophet (sawa) would have married another daughter to him?

[Haydar Husayn]

Al-Mufeed, on 10 June 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

3 people in a row - all getting sick and diying  - father son father - in their mid twenties - from a family that has been under severe harassment abuse by the government - with a history of dozens of their family members historically being murdered.

Imam al-Hadi was around 40 when he died. And yes, the circumstances do provoke suspicion, but that isn't enough to make definite claims.

Quote

You think that makes any sense.. i really thought better of the both of you. You guys are not using very much logical thought.

How is making assumptions proof of logical thought? You can't just say it looks suspicious, and therefore it was have been murder. That isn't very logical at all.

[macisaac]

Al-Mufeed, on 10 June 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

More over then that we have enough narrations to mention that the imams were killed - All of them and we have narrations about their martyrdom.

It's not as if such narrations don't exist.

Though evidently they weren't terribly convincing to Shaykh Mufid (perhaps he saw discrepancies in them like the one I pointed out about al-Mutawakkil supposedly poisoning Imam an-Naqi (a) when he had already been dead for years prior).  Narrations exist which say all sorts of things, doesn't make them true though.

Something else I remembered.  al-Karajaki who was a student of Shaykh Mufid and a great scholar himself wrote in his Mukhtasar `Aqa'id ash-Shi`a al-Imamiyya, in the section about the Imams:

59- وأنهم بشر محدثون، وعباد مصنوعون، لا يخلقون، ولا يرزقون، ويأكلون ويشربون، وتكون لهم الأزواج، وتنالهم الآلام والأعلال، ويستضامون، ويخافون فيتقون، وأن منهم من قتل، ومنهم من قبض

59 – And that they are originated human beings, created servants.  They do not create and they do not provide sustenance.  They eat and they drink, and they have wives.  Pains and sickness takes them, and they are harmed.  They fear so they do taqiyya.  And from them are those who are killed and from them are those who died.



Going by that, then it's evident that the belief in all of them being martyred was not so universally accepted back then as some might think today.

[Darth Vader]

Maybe Sheikh Mufeed was practicing taqayyah. Why don't the hadith wizards tell us EXACTLY what happened, for a change, instead of always casting shadows of doubt upon popular Shia beliefs.

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You really believe that? And then that after the first dying due to her husband abusing her, the Prophet (sawa) would have married another daughter to him?

Allah prefers martyrdom and aakhirah for His servants, and hellfire for the oppressors. I doubt His Prophet would have different priorities or could think of better means.

[Haydar Husayn]

Abu Dujana, on 10 June 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

Maybe Sheikh Mufeed was practicing taqayyah.

No.

[Al-Mufeed]

macisaac, on 10 June 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

You really believe that?  And then that after the first dying due to her husband abusing her, the Prophet (sawa) would have married another daughter to him?

Apparently he married 2 at the same time.


And yes I don't see the circumstances that different than what happened to Um Kulthum.

Quote

How is making assumptions proof of logical thought? You can't just say it looks suspicious, and therefore it was have been murder. That isn't very logical at all.

And you disregard all the historical circumstances, narrations and precedence - so that you can come on here and show that you have some how figured some thing out and try to ruffle up some peoples feathers.

You honestly believe all these Imams died a natural death - in fact how about providing a hadeeth that says they died a natural death?

[Darth Vader]

Haydar Husayn, on 10 June 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

No.

Ok, I'll just take your word for it. (Especially because your name has both "Haider" and "Hussain"!~ )

[CityOfKnowledge]

Honestly, it's already written in the Mus'haf of Fatima Zahra. So when Imam Mahdi comes he will reveal the truth (inshaAllah, if He lets us to know the truth) as to the oppression done to each and every member of the Ahlul Bayt.

I'm standing by the fact that our Aimmah were tortured when they were jailed. No proof if they were killed or died naturally but we know they died as shahid. I believe that if you torture someone, their life span will decrease.

I can't say whether their deaths were direct or indirectly related to the torture but I can't wrap my head around them dying "naturally". Since they know the secrets of the world, I'm pretty sure they know how to be healthy. I don't believe they chose to be unhealthy because they love us A LOT, and would never want to leave us by their choice.

So just for that fact that they were extremely healthy, it makes sense that they were A) murdered or b,) forced to be unhealthy...which will indirectly be murder.

Edited by CityOfKnowledge, 10 June 2012 - 11:43 PM.

[Nocturne]

macisaac, on 10 June 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

Here's an example of how there's a problem with what Shaykh Saduq reported about this.  He says:

"And 'Ali an-Naqi b. Muhammad was poisoned by al'Mutawakkil, may Allah curse him."

The problem is though, al-Mutawakkil was not the caliph at the time of Imam an-Naqi's death in 868, al-Mu`tazz was (ruled from 866 to 869).  In fact, al-Mutawakkil had already died in 861.

macisaac, on 10 June 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

Though evidently they weren't terribly convincing to Shaykh Mufid (perhaps he saw discrepancies in them like the one I pointed out about al-Mutawakkil supposedly poisoning Imam an-Naqi (a) when he had already been dead for years prior).  Narrations exist which say all sorts of things, doesn't make them true though.

But in Kitab al-Irshad, Shaykh Mufeed mentions al-Mutawakkil as the caliph.

[muhibb-ali]

Salam.

Here is a narration which states that all the Imam's will be martyred:

حَدَّثَنا مُحَمَّد بن مُوسَى بن المُتِوَكِّل‏ رَضِىَ اللهُ عَنْهُ قالَ حَدَّثَنا عَلِيٍّ بن إِبراهِيم بن هاشِمٍ عَن أبِيهِ عَن أبي الصلت عَبد السلام بن صالح الهروي قالَ سَمِعتُ الرِّضا عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ يَقُولُ: واللَّهِ مَا مِنَّا إِلا مَقْتُولٌ شَهِيدٌ

Muhammad ibn Musa ibn al-Mutawakkil - may God be pleased with him - narrated that Ali ibn Ibrahim ibn Hashem quoted on the authority of his father, on the authority of Abil Salt al-Harawi that he had heard Al-Reza (s) say, “By God! None of us, but will be killed and become a martyr.”

[Source: Uyoon Al Akhbar Ar Riza, Chapter. 66, Hadees. 9]

There is a similar hadees from Imam Sadiq also as quoted by Allama Majlisi

وذهب كثير من أصحابنا إلى أن الائمة خرجوا من الدنيا على الشهادة، واستدلوا بقول الصادق عليه السلام: والله ما منا إلا مقتول شهيد

"And it has come from many of our companions that the Imam's went from this world on Shahadat and used as evidence the saying of Imam Sadiq , "By God! None of us, but will be killed and become a martyr."

[Source: Bihar Al Anwar, Allama Majlisi, Vol. 27, Pg. 209]

http://www.marefatea...ams-as-martyred

Edited by muhibb-ali, 11 June 2012 - 01:39 AM.

[Qa'im]

This hadith may be of interest for this topic.

25 - عدة من أصحابنا، عن سعد بن عبدالله، عن أيوب بن نوح قال:

قلت لابي الحسن الرضا (عليه السلام): إني أرجو أن تكون صاحب هذا الامر، وأن يسوقه الله إليك بغير سيف، فقد بويع لك وضربت الدراهم باسمك، فقال: ما منا أحد اختلفت إليه الكتب، واشير إليه بالاصابع، وسئل عن المسائل، وحملت إليه الاموال، إلا اغتيل (2) أو مات على فراشه، حتى يبعث الله لهذا الامر غلاما منا،

خفي الولادة والمنشأ، غير خفي في نسبه.

A number of our companions from Sa`d b. Abdillah from Ayyub b. Nuh. He said: I said to Abu’l Hasan ar-Ridha : I hope that you are the master of this affair, and that Allah makes it easy for you without [the need of] a sword, as the people have vowed allegiance to you and the dirhams have been put in your name. He said:  The reports have differed on none of us (ie. Our purpose), and we are pointed at by fingers, asked questions, and the money is gathered for us unless we are assassinated or die on our bed, until Allah sends for this matter a young man from us, secretly given birth to and raised discretely, but not unknown in his lineage.

(sahih)

Edited by Qa'im, 11 June 2012 - 02:07 AM.

[muhibb-ali]

Salam.

Qa, on 11 June 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

This hadith may be of interest for this topic.

25 - عدة من أصحابنا، عن سعد بن عبدالله، عن أيوب بن نوح قال:

قلت لابي الحسن الرضا (عليه السلام): إني أرجو أن تكون صاحب هذا الامر، وأن يسوقه الله إليك بغير سيف، فقد بويع لك وضربت الدراهم باسمك، فقال: ما منا أحد اختلفت إليه الكتب، واشير إليه بالاصابع، وسئل عن المسائل، وحملت إليه الاموال، إلا اغتيل (2) أو مات على فراشه، حتى يبعث الله لهذا الامر غلاما منا،

خفي الولادة والمنشأ، غير خفي في نسبه.

A number of our companions from Sa`d b. Abdillah from Ayyub b. Nuh. He said: I said to Abu’l Hasan ar-Ridha : I hope that you are the master of this affair, and that Allah makes it easy for you without [the need of] a sword, as the people have vowed allegiance to you and the dirhams have been put in your name. He said:  The reports have differed on none of us (ie. Our purpose), and we are pointed at by fingers, asked questions, and the money is gathered for us unless we are assassinated or die on our bed, until Allah sends for this matter a young man from us, secretly given birth to and raised discretely, but not unknown in his lineage.

(sahih)

As I see it , the tone of the concerned part in bold above is similar to below verse of the Holy Quran addressing only the Holy Prophet (saww) individually.


وَمَا مُحَمَّدٌ إِلَّا رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ ۚ أَفَإِن مَّاتَ أَوْ قُتِلَ انقَلَبْتُمْ عَلَىٰ أَعْقَابِكُمْ ۚ وَمَن يَنقَلِبْ عَلَىٰ عَقِبَيْهِ فَلَن يَضُرَّ اللَّهَ شَيْئًا ۗ وَسَيَجْزِي اللَّهُ الشَّاكِرِينَ
Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude. [3:144]

The verse of the Quran and the narration above seem to just highlight the event that would take place after their passing away (be it a natural death or Martyrdom) without actually talking about the type of death.

wassalam

Edited by muhibb-ali, 11 June 2012 - 03:03 AM.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Brother Muhib e Ali,may Maula(as) reward you for your extremely laudable services for the defense of truth.

And those dirty people who could detain Imams(as) for years,and all those prisons are still there,some of them are worst for even one man to stand in straight position,so those oppressors could n't kill them? ridiculous,anyways above mentioned Ahadees are best refutations.

[macisaac]

Nocturne, on 10 June 2012 - 11:49 PM, said:

But in Kitab al-Irshad, Shaykh Mufeed mentions al-Mutawakkil as the caliph.

If he did, it was clearly incorrect since like I said al-Mutawakkil was already dead.

I found another error in the list Saduq provided.  It listed Ibrahim b. al-Walid as the one who killed Imam al-Baqir عليه السلام.  But, Ibrahim did not rule until a very brief time in 744 (then he abdicated and fled in fear of his enemies), while the Imam had already died in 732.  The caliph at his time was actually Hisham b. `Abd al-Malik, who ruled from 724-743.  It's pretty evident that whoever came up with this was able to associate the famous names of oppressors with the right time period (e.g. Harun in the time of Musa al-Kazhim (a)), but for the less well known ones had to take guesses (and sometimes got it wrong).  That shows that this wasn't really standing on firm historical ground to say the least..

Another thing I noticed, though I'll concede this is a minor point and might not mean anything, but I looked in al-Kafi in the section where al-Kulayni gives a brief biographical sketch of the twelve Imams.  I noticed that for Amir al-Mu'mineen (a) and Imam al-Husayn (a) he mentions them as being killed (qutila), but for the other Imams he just says they passed away/died

[Islamic Salvation]

Salaam

just a small correction brother


25 - عدة من أصحابنا، عن سعد بن عبدالله، عن أيوب بن نوح قال:
قلت لابي الحسن الرضا (عليه السلام): إني أرجو أن تكون صاحب هذا الامر، وأن يسوقه الله إليك بغير سيف، فقد بويع لك وضربت الدراهم باسمك، فقال: ما منا أحد اختلفت إليه الكتب، واشير إليه بالاصابع، وسئل عن المسائل، وحملت إليه الاموال، إلا اغتيل (2) أو مات على فراشه، حتى يبعث الله لهذا الامر غلاما منا،
خفي الولادة والمنشأ، غير خفي في نسبه.


A number of our companions from Sa`d b. Abdillah from Ayyub b. Nuh. He said: I said to Abu’l Hasan ar-Ridha : I hope that you are the master of this affair, and that Allah makes it easy for you without [the need of] a sword, as the people have vowed allegiance to you and the dirhams have been put [minted] in your name. He said: None of us to whom letters have been written, fingers pointed at, questions been asked to, money been gathered for, unless we are to be assassinated or die on our bed, until Allah sends for this matter a young man from us, secretly given birth to and raised discretely, but not unknown in his lineage.

(sahih)

Edited by Islamic Salvation, 11 June 2012 - 07:14 AM.

[Chaotic Muslem]

Imam Hadi lived during the rule of 5 caliph (al wathiq -almotawakkil-almontasir-almosta'een-alMo'taz) he died durig al mo'taz rule
but there many reports about him and al motawakkil

Quote

وصرح الشيخ الكفعمي بان الذي سمه هو المعتز

Quote

بحارالانوار50 : 117عن مصباح الكفعمي

----------------------------------------------------

Quote

ونقل كثير من المؤرخين والمحدثين ان الامام الهادي عليه السلام توفي مسموما
منهم : المسعودي ، وسبط ابن الجوزي ، والشبلنجي ، وابن الصباغ المالكي ، والشيخ ابو جعفر الطبري
مروج الذهب4 : 423 ، تذكرة الخواص : 324 ، نور الابصار/الشبلنجي : 337 ـ دارالجيل ـ بيروت ، الفصول المهمة2/ 1076 ، دلائل الامامة : 409

[Haydar Husayn]

CityOfKnowledge, on 10 June 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

I can't say whether their deaths were direct or indirectly related to the torture but I can't wrap my head around them dying "naturally". Since they know the secrets of the world, I'm pretty sure they know how to be healthy.

You can be perfectly healthy and still get ill. For example, you can catch a virus.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

macisaac, on 11 June 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

If he did, it was clearly incorrect since like I said al-Mutawakkil was already dead.

I found another error in the list Saduq provided.  It listed Ibrahim b. al-Walid as the one who killed Imam al-Baqir عليه السلام.  But, Ibrahim did not rule until a very brief time in 744 (then he abdicated and fled in fear of his enemies), while the Imam had already died in 732.  The caliph at his time was actually Hisham b. `Abd al-Malik, who ruled from 724-743.  It's pretty evident that whoever came up with this was able to associate the famous names of oppressors with the right time period (e.g. Harun in the time of Musa al-Kazhim (a)), but for the less well known ones had to take guesses (and sometimes got it wrong).  That shows that this wasn't really standing on firm historical ground to say the least..

Another thing I noticed, though I'll concede this is a minor point and might not mean anything, but I looked in al-Kafi in the section where al-Kulayni gives a brief biographical sketch of the twelve Imams.  I noticed that for Amir al-Mu'mineen (a) and Imam al-Husayn (a) he mentions them as being killed (qutila), but for the other Imams he just says they passed away/died

What is the historical proof that Sheikh mufeed had commited a mistake,and only those accounts are reliable which says mutawakil was dead? can't they be weak sources?
Secondly,it does n't matter who was the ruler,how does it contradict their Shahadat? Sheikh Sadooq was mistaken too,how comes everyone who was reliable till yesterday becomes mistaken so frequently? if they were then how comes they are correct on every other matter,which seems agrreable?

Scholars don't agree on Ibrahim being murderer of Fifth Imam(as),it was hishaam,so they must have researched for other issues as well,who killed whom? Why did n't they find truth there?

Islamic Salvation, on 11 June 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

Salaam

just a small correction brother


25 - عدة من أصحابنا، عن سعد بن عبدالله، عن أيوب بن نوح قال:
قلت لابي الحسن الرضا (عليه السلام): إني أرجو أن تكون صاحب هذا الامر، وأن يسوقه الله إليك بغير سيف، فقد بويع لك وضربت الدراهم باسمك، فقال: ما منا أحد اختلفت إليه الكتب، واشير إليه بالاصابع، وسئل عن المسائل، وحملت إليه الاموال، إلا اغتيل (2) أو مات على فراشه، حتى يبعث الله لهذا الامر غلاما منا،
خفي الولادة والمنشأ، غير خفي في نسبه.


A number of our companions from Sa`d b. Abdillah from Ayyub b. Nuh. He said: I said to Abu’l Hasan ar-Ridha : I hope that you are the master of this affair, and that Allah makes it easy for you without [the need of] a sword, as the people have vowed allegiance to you and the dirhams have been put [minted] in your name. He said: None of us to whom letters have been written, fingers pointed at, questions been asked to, money been gathered for, unless we are to be assassinated or die on our bed, until Allah sends for this matter a young man from us, secretly given birth to and raised discretely, but not unknown in his lineage.

(sahih)

They are predicting the possibilities only like Allah said 'if Mohammad(saww) get killed,or die natural death,would you turn back on your heels?'' ,It's certainly not a prophecy,you need a correction indeed.

[Darth Vader]

No offense but its quite obvious and I wonder why is it that a certain group of individuals are often doing wahabi things, including some notorious muqassireen who often get refuted, and what seems to me in this thread right now you're defending a nasibi hell spawn dog like Mutwakkil in the absence of definite proof and in the face of so many other possibilities?

Okay, sure, make it sound doubtful and discuss for sharing of knowledge, but some of you guys seem to be over zealous about your opinion as usual. Like you have an actual purpose. Or is that your human element or perhaps your typical mullahism's blindness and ignorance showing? Or.... perhaps some are indeed wahabi infiltrators as many of us suspect after all.

I mean what possible point do the over zealous people are trying to make any way? And how does it affect some one else's faith? Did you know, your trying so hard and so blindly with the help of crutches only does you discredit.

[La fata illa Ali]

Abu Dujana, on 11 June 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

No offense but its quite obvious and I wonder why is it that a certain group of individuals are often doing wahabi things, including some notorious muqassireen who often get refuted, and what seems to me in this thread right now you're defending a nasibi hell spawn dog like Mutwakkil in the absence of definite proof and in the face of so many other possibilities?

Okay, sure, make it sound doubtful and discuss for sharing of knowledge, but some of you guys seem to be over zealous about your opinion as usual. Like you have an actual purpose. Or is that your human element or perhaps your typical mullahism's blindness and ignorance showing? Or.... perhaps some are indeed wahabi infiltrators as many of us suspect after all.

I mean what possible point do the over zealous people are trying to make any way? And how does it affect some one else's faith? Did you know, your trying so hard and so blindly with the help of crutches only does you discredit.

\



This is so sad... i definately dont agree with HH on a few things and I think he may be woefully misguided on certain issues and right flipflop but he is investigating his faith and for that I admire his approach of removing his biases and examing the issue intellectually.


Its you people (Abu Dujana) who are the one's who accept anything the turbans say and are more then happy to be sheep...


Its ur choice, either u take the blue pill or u take the red pill... (#Matrixreference)

[Al-Mufeed]

I think this issue is pretty simple and straight forward:

Here is what we have:

- We have narrations that say All the imams are shaheed

- We have narrations specifically about the martyrdom of every single Imam (whether you want to accept them or not - they do exist)

- We have the statements of Ulamah (which I have provided - such as Alamah Majlisi) stating that Shaikh Mufeed was referring to the narrations being able to be doubted from the perspective of them not being muttawatir - not that the narrations in and of them selves were not acceptable.

- We have logical historical analysis that tells us that the likelihood of them having been murdered is 100000x more than them having just died a "natural" death - especially for the lmams who died at a young age.

- We have ziyarat passed down to us mentioning these aimma as shaheed

Here is what we do NOT have (as far as I am aware  - unless some one wants to prove me wrong)

- Narrations that mention the death of specific Imams mentioning their death as natural.


-------------------


Given the above facts I don't see why any one would chose to believe that the idea that the Imam's died a natural death is a logical conclusion.

Quote

BTW, Imam al-Hadi would have been in his early forties, not mid twenties.

I had ignored this yesterday thinking I was mistaken - but having gone looking in to some biography books I saw his age at the time of his death (martyrdom) to be 25.

Where did you see his death as being in his mid 40s?

Edit- My mistake i had read your statment as Imam Jawad not Hadi - in which case it is correct he died around that age.

[Darth Vader]

Quote

This is so sad... i definately dont agree with HH on a few things and I think he may be woefully misguided on certain issues and right flipflop but he is investigating his faith and for that I admire his approach of removing his biases and examing the issue intellectually.

Its you people (Abu Dujana) who are the one's who accept anything the turbans say and are more then happy to be sheep...

Its ur choice, either u take the blue pill or u take the red pill... (#Matrixreference)

What's actually sad for a real muhibb is to see a vain act of a muqassir trying to take away a recognized, established and known greatest honor of martydom from a dearest Imam of ours. And then they have the audacity to claim to be a Shia or a "Ja'fari". While the lock over their 'aql is so obvious because they are blind to evidence suggesting otherwise.

A "turban" is some thing at least, who spent some time in this field and has some say, while a nobody is a nobody. Who gave him the right to "investigate" such things, and this isn't even a "investigation", because they simply refuse to recognize or acknowledge anything else than what they think is right. The correct word therefore is "preaching", not investigation.

I don't need to point out what's already obvious to all and who's actually on blue pills and following in the footsteps of MysticKnight. All I ask is let my Imams and the sacred parts of my deen be. Don't cross that line. You want to create your own way, go right ahead. But if you disclose it and bring it before others like me then you should expect to face some bold criticism, so buckle up.

Edited by Abu Dujana, 12 June 2012 - 05:29 AM.

[Haydar Husayn]

So I take it Shaykh Mufeed was also a "muqassir trying to take away a recognized, established and known greatest honor of martydom from a dearest Imam of ours".

[Kismet110]

^^^

What he was we don't know but what you are is quite clear.

Little difference between you and a Wahabbi; both look hard for proof that personages blessed with the Nur of Allah (JJH) have some deficiencies then go out of your way to 'prove' it to others and anything that might obstruct your scientific research is not valid.

I feel sorry for you.

ALI

[Haydar Husayn]

Dying naturally (which I'm not even saying I'm necessarily convinced of either) is a deficiency?