54 replies to this topic

[Haydar Husayn]

Here are Shaykh Mufeed's views on the martyrdom of the Prophet and Imams .

From Tashih al-I`tiqad:

As for what Abu Ja`far (Shaykh Saduq) mentions of the death of our Prophet and the Imams by poison or murder, some of this is confirmed as fact and some not. What is confirmed is that the Commander of the Believers, al-Hasan and al-Husayn, peace be upon them, departed from this world by murder, none of them died a natural death. Musa ibn Ja`far, peace be upon him, was killed by poison. It is highly probable that ar-Rida (`Ali ibn Musa) was poisoned, yet this cannot be confirmed. As for the others, there is no justification for the claim that they were either poisoned or murdered or killed through persecution, since the reports concerning this matter are extremely confused and there are no means of proving it definitely.


From Kitab al-Irshad:

He (Imam al-Jawad) died in the month of Dhul al-Qa`da in the same year. It was said that he died as a result of poisoning but in my view no report has established that, and I bear witness to that.


As Shaykh Mufeed mentions, Shaykh Saduq was of the view that all the Imams were martyred, yet he disagreed with his teacher, mentioning that he didn't find the reports reliable. Considering it is said that much of the sources available at that time have been lost to us, how can we be so sure today that they were all martyred? The fact that such a doctrine has obvious appeal among the masses, can only help make one suspicious. If the evidence was so strong as to put it beyond doubt, it's hard to imagine Shaykh Mufeed going out of his way to deny it like this, for no real reason.

Edited by Haydar Husayn, 10 June 2012 - 03:18 PM.

[Ali Musaaa :)]

Wa alaykum salaam

That's a very interesting post Brother. Thanks for that

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Why are you not following modern scholars now,like contemporaries of Mutahri,etc?

These are just opinions,what were the evidences?

Sheikh mufeed could n't deny it without reason? then Sheikh Saduq was accepting it without reason as per you?

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra, 10 June 2012 - 03:26 PM.

[Haydar Husayn]

Kaniz e Zahra, on 10 June 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Why are you not following modern scholars now,like contemporaries of Mutahri,etc?

These are just opinions,what were the evidences?

Sheikh mufeed could n't deny it without reason? then Sheikh Saduq was accepting it without reason as per you?

Well, Shaykh Saduq was probably relying on the report that say they were martyred, which no doubt exist (or existed), but it's still interesting that Shaykh Mufeed says that those reports are 'extremely confused', and in the case of Imam al-Jawad he outright says that these reports do not establish that he was poisoned.

You also have to admit that if they did die due to natural causes, it's natural that people would have speculated that it might have been due to poisoning, which might have created the confusion.

[CityOfKnowledge]

I always believed that Ayatul tathir

"Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification" (33:33)

was a clear proof that none of the members of the Ahlul Bayt died a natural death.
Since all impurities were removed from them, they never got sick...so they had to have been killed.
Definitely just my (worthless, meaningless, faulty and ignorant) opinion. Open to the truth.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Haydar Husayn, on 10 June 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

Well, Shaykh Saduq was probably relying on the report that say they were martyred, which no doubt exist (or existed), but it's still interesting that Shaykh Mufeed says that those reports are 'extremely confused', and in the case of Imam al-Jawad he outright says that these reports do not establish that he was poisoned.

You also have to admit that if they did die due to natural causes, it's natural that people would have speculated that it might have been due to poisoning, which might have created the confusion.

What were the reports he found confused?
And what were found reliable by his teacher?
Can you copy them here so we can draw a comparison?

[Haydar Husayn]

Kaniz e Zahra, on 10 June 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

What were the reports he found confused?
And what were found reliable by his teacher?
Can you copy them here so we can draw a comparison?

He doesn't mention them. Not here at least.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Haydar Husayn, on 10 June 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

He doesn't mention them. Not here at least.

Then how can we rely on just an opinion?its obvious its not word of Masoom(as),fallibles can make mistakes.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra, 10 June 2012 - 03:43 PM.

[Haydar Husayn]

CityOfKnowledge, on 10 June 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

I always believed that Ayatul tathir

"Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification" (33:33)

was a clear proof that none of the members of the Ahlul Bayt died a natural death.
Since all impurities were removed from them, they never got sick...so they had to have been killed.
Definitely just my (worthless, meaningless, faulty and ignorant) opinion. Open to the truth.

They did get sick. There are many reports of that.

[CityOfKnowledge]

Haydar Husayn, on 10 June 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

They did get sick. There are many reports of that.

I thought they just got weak... not sick.
Like in Hadith al Kisa, the Prophet walked into the home of Lady Fatima az-Zahra and asked her for a cloak because he was feeling weak.
But then again, when Imam Zainul Abideen was in Karbala, he was sick and after Karbala, whenever he got sick, he would pour a bucket of cold water over his head and called out Lady Fatima's name.
But was this due to illness or weakness?

[Al-Mufeed]

http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2303010

[macisaac]

Here's an example of how there's a problem with what Shaykh Saduq reported about this.  He says:

"And 'Ali an-Naqi b. Muhammad was poisoned by al'Mutawakkil, may Allah curse him."

The problem is though, al-Mutawakkil was not the caliph at the time of Imam an-Naqi's death in 868, al-Mu`tazz was (ruled from 866 to 869).  In fact, al-Mutawakkil had already died in 861.

[La fata illa Ali]

Maybe u guys can find it, but there is the hadith from the Prophet i believe that states something like all the Prophet's and their successors were martyred and that this will be true for him and his successors as well? thats the gist of the matn.


Anyone ever heard of that hadith b4?


I think one other scientific fact to sonsider which may or may not be relevant but what were the ages of the Imam's when they died? How old was Imam Jawad when he died?

just curios.

Edited by La fata illa Ali, 10 June 2012 - 05:13 PM.

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

macisaac, on 10 June 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

Here's an example of how there's a problem with what Shaykh Saduq reported about this.  He says:

"And 'Ali an-Naqi b. Muhammad was poisoned by al'Mutawakkil, may Allah curse him."

The problem is though, al-Mutawakkil was not the caliph at the time of Imam an-Naqi's death in 868, al-Mu`tazz was (ruled from 866 to 869).  In fact, al-Mutawakkil had already died in 861.

Maybe an order of mutawakkil executed by mutazz like the order to kill al hussayn ibn ali a.s by umar and Abu bakar executed by yazeed.

[Haydar Husayn]

siraatoaliyinhaqqun, on 10 June 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

Maybe an order of mutawakkil executed by mutazz like the order to kill al hussayn ibn ali a.s by umar and Abu bakar executed by yazeed.

Where is this coming from?

[Ali Musaaa :)]

La fata illa Ali, on 10 June 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

How old was Imam Jawad when he died?

just curios.

To the best of my knowledge, Imam Al-Jawad died when he was in his twenties. I think 25 or roughly around that. InshAllah you will get a definite response

[Haydar Husayn]

Al-Mufeed, on 10 June 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2303010

http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2303014

CityOfKnowledge, on 10 June 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

I thought they just got weak... not sick.
Like in Hadith al Kisa, the Prophet walked into the home of Lady Fatima az-Zahra and asked her for a cloak because he was feeling weak.
But then again, when Imam Zainul Abideen was in Karbala, he was sick and after Karbala, whenever he got sick, he would pour a bucket of cold water over his head and called out Lady Fatima's name.
But was this due to illness or weakness?

How do you differentiate between illness and weakness if you don't consider Imam Zayn ul-Abideen to be sick at Karbala?

[Al-Mufeed]

Haydar Husayn, on 10 June 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2303014

Alamah majlisi's explanation makes perfect sense.

Do you think that shaikh mufeed was some how deficient in his ability to reason. Let me ask you a simple question

Do you think that our Imams just dropped dead.

Especially the last 3 Imams before our 12th Imam. You think that they would of just dropped dead with no explanation in their mid 20s.

It doesn't make any sense. It's obvious that Alamah Majlisi is correct (not to mention that we have narrations that all the a'imma are shaheed).

[Valients_die_but_once]

salam , It is well established that Our master Imam Zain ul abideen ( Im sunni by the way) did not participate in Kerbala due to severe illness , hence why he did not participate in the Most afzal Jihad of sayyiduna Imam hussain , this is mentioned by abu mikhnaf and indeed all the narratives of kerbala.

siraatoaliyinhaqqun says

Quote

Maybe an order of mutawakkil executed by mutazz like the order to kill al hussayn ibn ali a.s by umar and Abu bakar executed by yazeed.

what a abseloute absurd absurd post , such a thing is not even reported in a weak report yet alone at all by all schools of thought, wack youreself my freind LOL.

[macisaac]

Al-Mufeed, on 10 June 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

Alamah majlisi's explanation makes perfect sense.

Do you think that shaikh mufeed was some how deficient in his ability to reason. Let me ask you a simple question

Do you think that our Imams just dropped dead.

Especially the last 3 Imams before our 12th Imam. You think that they would of just dropped dead with no explanation in their mid 20s.

It doesn't make any sense. It's obvious that Alamah Majlisi is correct (not to mention that we have narrations that all the a'imma are shaheed).

You know, even today there's a lot of different reasons why someone in their mid 20s can die by other than poison, not to mention in the 9th century...

[Haydar Husayn]

Al-Mufeed, on 10 June 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

Alamah majlisi's explanation makes perfect sense.

No it doesn't.

Quote

Shaikh al Islam Alamah Al Majlisi explained what Shaikh Mufeed ment in that quotation, he didnt mean that he did not believe in it, he ment that it can not be proven with out a doubt because the narrations for the shahadat of Imam Ali , Sayida Fatimah, Imam Hassan, Imam Hussain, Imam Kazim and Imam Reza - are mutawatir, and there is no doubt in them- and even the sunnis atest to. He says however with the rest of them it can be doubted from the perspective of the sunnis since the reports are not mutawatir, hwoever then Alamah quotes a hadeeth from Imam Hassan - Where he says "There is not from us (ahlulbayt) except that they are killed or poisoned"

First of all, you cannot establish the martyrdom of all the members of the ahlulbayt up to Imam ar-Ridha through Sunni narrations. Second of all, read what he says:

"It is highly probable that ar-Rida (`Ali ibn Musa) was poisoned, yet this cannot be confirmed. As for the others, there is no justification for the claim that they were either poisoned or murdered or killed through persecution, since the reports concerning this matter are extremely confused and there are no means of proving it definitely."

So when he says 'there is no justification', while correcting Saduq (so in a purely Shia context), he means that it can't be established through Sunni narrations?

In that case, what does it mean to say that it was highly probably that Imam ar-Ridha was poisoned? That it can 'sort of' be established through Sunni narrations? Please.

"He (Imam al-Jawad) died in the month of Dhul al-Qa`da in the same year. It was said that he died as a result of poisoning but in my view no report has established that, and I bear witness to that."

He bears witness to the fact that no report establishes his poisoning, but what he meant was no Sunni report establishes it? Is this really what you think he meant?

Quote

Do you think that shaikh mufeed was some how deficient in his ability to reason.

No, not at all.

Quote

Let me ask you a simple question

Do you think that our Imams just dropped dead.

Especially the last 3 Imams before our 12th Imam. You think that they would of just dropped dead with no explanation in their mid 20s.

It doesn't make any sense.

As much as you may not want to believe it, it is indeed possible to get sick in your mid twenties and just die. Especially back then, it was very common.

Quote

It's obvious that Alamah Majlisi is correct (not to mention that we have narrations that all the a'imma are shaheed).

No, not from the words of Shaykh Mufeed it isn't. As for the narrations you mention, presumably Shaykh Mufeed saw them and wasn't convinced. That's assuming it wasn't one of those hadiths found by Majlisi, but that can't be found in the classical hadith compilations.

[La fata illa Ali]

Alamah quotes a hadeeth from Imam Hassan - Where he says "There is not from us (ahlulbayt) except that they are killed or poisoned"




Where can we find this hadith?

[Al-Mufeed]

Quote

You know, even today there's a lot of different reasons why someone in their mid 20s can die by other than poison, not to mention in the 9th century...

Quote

As much as you may not want to believe it, it is indeed possible to get sick in your mid twenties and just die. Especially back then, it was very common.

3 people in a row - all getting sick and diying  - father son father - in their mid twenties - from a family that has been under severe harassment abuse by the government - with a history of dozens of their family members historically being murdered.


You think that makes any sense.. i really thought better of the both of you. You guys are not using very much logical thought.

[macisaac]

So, how old were Ruqayya, Umma Kulthum, daughters of the Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå, and Ibrahim his son when they died and how did they die?

BTW, Imam al-Hadi would have been in his early forties, not mid twenties.

[Al-Mufeed]

Regaurding Ruqayah and Umm Kulthum Alama Amini quotes sources in ghadeer saying that they both died to abuses received from their husband.

More over then that we have enough narrations to mention that the imams were killed - All of them and we have narrations about their martyrdom.

It's not as if such narrations don't exist.