52 replies to this topic

[iDevonian]

aliasghark, on 01 June 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

You're talking about the times when racism and gender discrimination were in the law. I'm talking about now.

The laws are made by the people.  Laws change as people do.  So, if a law says its ok to mistreat blacks, then its because blacks hadnt made their mark.  Overtime, people realized it was wrong.  Blacks earned respect over time, and now we have a black president.  But 10-15 years ago, people would never have imagined such a thing.

It takes time to earn this respect, and it takes time for people to adjust to new things.  Right now, interactions with the middle east, and middle eastern immigrants, is fairly new.  Its not like masses of people from iraq were migrating here back in the 50s.  This is all new, and now they are going through just what everyone else has and still is.

Our laws are supposed to grant inalienable rights, independent of skin color or race. Now we know thats not the case.  Like I said before, look at the travon martin case.  Look at the gay rights movement.

This whole mosque situation is just a small part of a big picture, a picture that is being worked on and has been worked on since the dawn of America and beyond.

you know, blacks get shot and killed on these streets every day.  What made travon martin special? Racism+media hype and sales.  Its the same thing with this mosque. A dime a dozen.

Its like starting a new job.  You never just walk in and have everyone in the business love you.  You could be super man, you still need to run the gauntlet to prove yourself.

Edited by iDevonian, 01 June 2012 - 08:49 PM.

[aliasghark]

iDevonian, on 01 June 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

The laws are made by the people.  Laws change as people do.  So, if a law says its ok to mistreat blacks, then its because blacks hadnt made their mark.  Overtime, people realized it was wrong.  Blacks earned respect over time, and now we have a black president.  But 10-15 years ago, people would never have imagined such a thing.

It takes time to earn this respect, and it takes time for people to adjust to new things.  Right now, interactions with the middle east, and middle eastern immigrants, is fairly new.  Its not like masses of people from iraq were migrating here back in the 50s.  This is all new, and now they are going through just what everyone else has and still is.

Our laws are supposed to grant inalienable rights, independent of skin color or race. Now we know thats not the case.  Like I said before, look at the travon martin case.  Look at the gay rights movement.

This whole mosque situation is just a small part of a big picture, a picture that is being worked on and has been worked on since the dawn of America and beyond.

you know, blacks get shot and killed on these streets every day.  What made travon martin special? Racism+media hype and sales.  Its the same thing with this mosque. A dime a dozen.

You're being pretty racist, and understanding it backwards.

It's not that the laws said mistreating blacks was ok because they hadn't earned respect yet, it's that the country matured and stopped assuming the color of the skin (and other such things) made a person inferior or superior and that led to the laws being fixed.

You still seem to be living in a parellel world where people are guilty until proven innocent, but thankfully most Americans don't subscribe to that anymore.

[iDevonian]

aliasghark, on 01 June 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

You're being pretty racist, and understanding it backwards.

It's not that the laws said mistreating blacks was ok because they hadn't earned respect yet, it's that the country matured and stopped assuming the color of the skin (and other such things) made a person inferior or superior and that led to the laws being fixed.

You still seem to be living in a parellel world where people are guilty until proven innocent, but thankfully most Americans don't subscribe to that anymore.

Laws did say mistreating of blacks was ok, they were made by racist people who gave them subhuman rights. And I never said this was a justified way of life, im just saying its reality.

In reality, muslims are treated guilty until proven innocent, as we can see with our own eyes. And not even just muslims, its a race factor too.  Its the same with gays as well.  It was the same with blacks during the civil rights movement.  It was the same with the japanese, the same with the Irish, the same with the native americans etc etc.

They have all been treated as guilty until proven innocent.

Heres an honest question, are you actually suprised when cases like this one comes up, where an approved mosque thats practically finished almost gets temporarily delayed in construction in Tennessee?

Edited by iDevonian, 01 June 2012 - 09:34 PM.

[Goku]

iDevonian, on 01 June 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

The laws are made by the people.  Laws change as people do.  So, if a law says its ok to mistreat blacks, then its because blacks hadnt made their mark.  Overtime, people realized it was wrong.  Blacks earned respect over time, and now we have a black president.  But 10-15 years ago, people would never have imagined such a thing.

It takes time to earn this respect, and it takes time for people to adjust to new things.  Right now, interactions with the middle east, and middle eastern immigrants, is fairly new.  Its not like masses of people from iraq were migrating here back in the 50s.  This is all new, and now they are going through just what everyone else has and still is.

Our laws are supposed to grant inalienable rights, independent of skin color or race. Now we know thats not the case.  Like I said before, look at the travon martin case.  Look at the gay rights movement.

This whole mosque situation is just a small part of a big picture, a picture that is being worked on and has been worked on since the dawn of America and beyond.

you know, blacks get shot and killed on these streets every day.  What made travon martin special? Racism+media hype and sales.  Its the same thing with this mosque. A dime a dozen.

Its like starting a new job.  You never just walk in and have everyone in the business love you.  You could be super man, you still need to run the gauntlet to prove yourself.

So if a law was made that said it is okay to mistreat a certain group of people, you will go ahead and do this? The hell with American Laws, more than half of them are bogus. Including the ones which allow bestiality to be okay. These are your laws bud?

[iDevonian]

Goku, on 01 June 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

So if a law was made that said it is okay to mistreat a certain group of people, you will go ahead and do this? The hell with American Laws, more than half of them are bogus. Including the ones which allow bestiality to be okay. These are your laws bud?

Well, there is no law now that says you can misteat someone.  Im just saying how it is.  Back in the day African Americans did have laws that deraded them.  And yes I agree that they were bad laws.

The point here though is that...well there are a few points.

The first one is, nobody is automatically entitled to anything out here. Just because there are freedoms, doesnt mean anyone can do whatever they want, whenever they want.  There is due process that needs to be followed, and hurdles that need to be jumped over before people can do these things.  Whether through law, or through social relations with their community.

Another point.  This case isnt particularly special.  We could all name a million and one cases where racism has caused conflict and the law has become involved.  We can do the same for religion as well.  So, if it happens with this case in Tennessee, we shouldnt act surprised.  As if this kind of stuff doesnt happen every day.  As if these people are entitled to do whatever they want, wherever they want, just because its America.

These are the key points.  And Im not saying the mosque shouldnt be built, and im not saying the towns people are truly justified.  Im just saying, this is the way it is.

And I dont think it will always be this way.  Over time cultures do work their way in and...I mean look at the US now.  Its not even predominantly white anymore.  So, with time, the immigrants of today become the America of tomorrow, our leaders and well...u know.  And if blacks can get a president in office, when 50 years ago they were getting lynched, i think muslims will be fine...especially when the hardest thing they are up against is a questionable temporary delay of an already approved, nearly completed mosque in Tennessee.

btw, I am multi racial, and I have each of these races in my family and in my own blood, and I have each of these religions in my own family as well.  My grandfather back in his day would probably laugh at someone calling this injustice in comparison to what he went through.  My Irish family members as well, and my native american ancestors.  This is like a walk in the park, and these people will be fine.

Edited by iDevonian, 01 June 2012 - 10:06 PM.

[Goku]

[titumir]

iDevonian is using typical American logic.

If you meet an American on the street, and talk to him, he will tell you how much America cares about equal rights, how America is very concerned about the plight of the oppressed all over the world, how America is a model for all the nations of the world, how America cares so much about Tibetans oppressed by the Chinese, how America is so important to keeping peace in the world, because no other nation can be trusted....

Then if you bring up such an example of American intolerance, he changes track. In one second, all the previous talk is forgotten. All talk of human rights, democracy, peace, everything vanishes in a puff of smoke. Now, its, "Muslims have to "prove" themselves", the people have a right to ban building anything in their own town, the law is the law, when in Rome do as the Romans do, etc.

This is America, in a nutshell, and what idevonian is doing here is applicable for the majority of Americans, and the American government as a whole.

[Gypsy]

Did you guys remember the ground zero mosque that was condemned by the fanatical Christians and right wingers even before it was built?

The same thing is happening again.

Edited by Gypsy, 02 June 2012 - 08:11 AM.

[iDevonian]

titumir, on 02 June 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

iDevonian is using typical American logic.

If you meet an American on the street, and talk to him, he will tell you how much America cares about equal rights, how America is very concerned about the plight of the oppressed all over the world, how America is a model for all the nations of the world, how America cares so much about Tibetans oppressed by the Chinese, how America is so important to keeping peace in the world, because no other nation can be trusted....

Then if you bring up such an example of American intolerance, he changes track. In one second, all the previous talk is forgotten. All talk of human rights, democracy, peace, everything vanishes in a puff of smoke. Now, its, "Muslims have to "prove" themselves", the people have a right to ban building anything in their own town, the law is the law, when in Rome do as the Romans do, etc.

This is America, in a nutshell, and what idevonian is doing here is applicable for the majority of Americans, and the American government as a whole.

I am concerned with human rights.  Just as you are.

And dont get me wrong, i do recognize racist bigots, and I think its wrong.  But just because they are wrong, doesnt mean that they are somehow going to magically change their minds for no apparent reason.

And this is why there are different Americans too, there are racist ones and other Americans who will fight the racist.  But ultimately, it is up to the muslims themselves to demonstrate who they are.  That is the only way you will teach the world.

So, it is up to you to prove yourself.  We cannot prove you are a good person, you have to prove you are a good person.  Otherwise, nobody will ever know. And the racist will be racist.

Back in the day, many Americans didnt like blacks.  It wasnt until blacks stepped up and started to show that they were good people, that our mindset changed.  When Martin Luther King stepped up, he was proving to America that Blacks were equal.  He was proving by demonstration that all blacks deserved equal rights. And this is something that other white people couldnt tell other whites.  It was up to the blacks themselves to make the statement. And they did.  They stepped up in many ways, large movements, large statements, and it was good.  And this is also why MLK is often respected more than malcom X too, because it took heart for the peaceful movement they made. Its not about fighting, its about showing America who you are.  And making the injustice clear.  This is what makes the black movement such a great thing, we now have a black president. We know that Africans are doing great things, they are us, we are them.  We are together.

This is why the movie Glory is so popular in American culture.  It is a movie in which blacks step up and prove that they are not only equal, but heroes of the civil war.  Not only are they equal, but they demonstrated they were equal, and nowhone in the world can deny that.  They had proven that they were American heroes, and to this day, they still are.  All because they stepped up and showed the world. They proved themselves to their fellow Americans and earned great respect.  Even racist whites in the union  give respect to these guys because they were physically putting their lives on the line for the country.  Its a beautiful story, it really is.  And will forever be one of the most famous black movies, hence why morgan freeman and denzel washington are so popular today. This is why Americans know of the black regiment who stepped up in those times.  Even white people not so familiar with American history respect these blacks.

And this is the only way to gain acceptance in the eyes of the bigots.  It is the only way.  You must prove yourself, you must demonstrate that you arent some crazy foreigner coming to destroy America.  You have to show Americans who you are and what good you are bringing to them.

Becuase in all honesty, most people do not know about foreigners. We know about blacks because over generations they have done great things in our country and for our country.  But with middle easterners in particular, its a clean slate. Are these people crazy wahabi coming to rule with an iron fist like they do in saudi?  Are they more secular like in indonesia? Who are they? Most people honestly do not know. I know people had had grown up and rarely if ever even seen a black person, let alone would they know anything about a person from the other side of the planet.

And this isnt just in America, its for the world.  Show America who you are, so people dont mistake all muslims for the crazy ones. And many muslims are doing this, we have foreign doctors and engineers, scientists, school teachers, even soldiers. And we are all coming together well, but its still a new relationship.  One that will need time to develop.

And anyone who thought that a foreign race could just move into the country and somehow everything would be perfectly peaceful, is a fool.  Because we know about human nature, and we know about American history, and we know, thats not going to happen.  Not until trust is earned. Just like when you meet a new person, you earn their trust.

Edited by iDevonian, 02 June 2012 - 09:05 AM.

[aliasghark]

Bigotry is the problem of the bigots, they need to deal with their mental handicaps (not the people who are the victims).

Anyhow, when there are millions of dollars being spent to create hate and intolerance, you can hardly blame the victim (for not having 'proven themselves', of all things).

[iDevonian]

aliasghark, on 02 June 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Bigotry is the problem of the bigots, they need to deal with their mental handicaps (not the people who are the victims).

Anyhow, when there are millions of dollars being spent to create hate and intolerance, you can hardly blame the victim (for not having 'proven themselves', of all things).

Bigotry is a problem for everyone in the nation.  It is a problem that the bigots hold, it is a problem for the less or non bigots because we share power with them, we share our land with them. We share our laws with them.  We share our rights and our homes with them.

Their problem is our problem, because we are together.  When an evangelical organization makes a noahs ark amusement park for kids, its not just the problem of the evangelicals.  The nation speaks out because it effects us (even if nowhere near us in another state). It is all of us. Not only do the muslims need to prove themselves, but bigots need to learn as well about equal rights and about foreign culture.  Its a joint relationship and everyone needs to work together.  Everyone plays their part. But nobody should be surprised that the conflict is there. Thats just the way it is.

And ill say this again.  We will get passed the hump, just as we did with the Irish and the blacks and the Japanese, and the hispanics and on and on.  Racism still exists, but we are working it down.  So long as everyone works to educate each other, we will be fine.

At the end of the day though, the best way to teach is by demonstration.

Edited by iDevonian, 02 June 2012 - 09:16 AM.

[aliasghark]

And the unending comparisons to black emancipation sound tired and hopeless now... they were fighting to change the discriminatory laws, not to change some paid bigot's opinion.

[iDevonian]

aliasghark, on 02 June 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

And the unending comparisons to black emancipation sound tired and hopeless now... they were fighting to change the discriminatory laws, not to change some paid bigot's opinion.

Laws change with opinions of the people making the laws.  Equal rights is about showing that you are equal.  Yes its about changing the law, but to change the law, blacks first had to change the people. Or at least show the people who they were, so that the people would change themselves. Laws would never change if people did not change.

And this is another reason our law system is good.  It is flexible, and people change it as it suits them. If a law in the past has unfair rights, and people stand up against it, then the opinion of the nation  will change, and the law will too.

There is no single system that is supposedly perfect. Its a fluid system that very often changes to accommodate changes in the nation.  And it will continue to do so.  And this is something that not all countries have. You go to china and you have suicide nets stopping you from jumping out of the window.  That is their solution to unjust laws.

Edited by iDevonian, 02 June 2012 - 09:25 AM.

[aliasghark]

iDevonian, on 02 June 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

Laws change with opinions of the people making the laws. Equal rights is about showing that you are equal. Yes its about changing the law, but to change the law, blacks first had to change the people. Or at least show the people who they were, so that the people would change themselves.

And as I had said, this time it's not about changing the law.

By the way, a majority of Americans distrust atheists with power, that doesn't mean atheists now have to 'prove' themselves, or be kicked out of towns and cities.

[iDevonian]

And ya know, I have stood up for Islam and muslims in this country on multiple occasions against these same kinds of bigots. So im not the bad guy here.  But the fact of the matter is, these people wont believe something unless they see it.  I cant tell someone that another person is ok, often they need to see that person for themselves to see.

aliasghark, on 02 June 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

And as I had said, this time it's not about changing the law.

By the way, a majority of Americans distrust atheists with power, that doesn't mean atheists now have to 'prove' themselves, or be kicked out of towns and cities.

Muslims aren't being kicked out of towns or cities. And im drawing a comparison here.  And yes, we atheists (and by we atheists, I mean liberals and...non by the book believers) do need to prove ourselves, and in my opinion, we are.  Some of our nations greatest minds are "atheists", proving ourselves through our practice. I can think of great non religious minds right now who have publically changed the national perspective of non believers over time.  Mostly we have been moving through science.  Guys like Neil Tyson, Carl Sagan, Marie Curie, ,Bill Neye, Edison.

People know these names.  People know what they stand for, and atheists have been in this nation leading in some means, for generations.  You cant draw that comparison to muslims in American history.  Not only that, but we typically arent the bigots. You dont have to worry about us. We arent out to potentially indoctrinate a community. We dont teach beliefs, we teach knowledge.

Thats a tough comparison to make, atheists in America to muslims in America.

Edited by iDevonian, 02 June 2012 - 09:42 AM.

[aliasghark]

iDevonian, on 02 June 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

Some of our nations greatest minds are atheists

Some of the worst minds too. You seem like one of the calmer ones, but my experience many, many atheists has been about having to tolerate their abusive language and arrogant attitudes.

[iDevonian]

aliasghark, on 02 June 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

Some of the worst minds too. You seem like one of the calmer ones, but my experience many, many atheists has been about having to tolerate their abusive language and arrogant attitudes.

thanks.  I wanted to add bill maher to that list too.  People know these names and they respect them for their accomplishments.

Muslims just havent been in America as a large population.  We dont have muslim politicians, we dont have popular muslim figures in the media. We dont have many muslim scientists standing out in the media.  Most states have very small muslim populations.  As the population grows, we will get these figures and views across the nation will change. But right now, nobody knows who they are.

And by we, thats just a broad statement.  Obviously in diverse areas we have muslim friends and neighbors. I am from a liberal area, so I have muslim friends, I know muslim scientists, I have muslim family even. But across the nation, how many muslims are even in America? What popular figures do we have? Mike tyson? Dave Chappelle? Ice cube.  They dont count.

But its not a bad thing, its just the way it is.  If anything, its a good thing, because the ones who break the ice are the ones who go down in history. So now is the time to shine.

Things will change.

Alright, well, ill give you all the last word, Theres nothing to say which hasnt already been said.

Edited by iDevonian, 02 June 2012 - 10:01 AM.

[aliasghark]

There are instances where I think I can finally agree with you, but no, you just have to make it impossible. Bill Maher is stands out as an extremely narrow-minded and dumb guy. He may sound impressive when you listen to him initially, but lacks depth and spreads hate (including against Muslims) through his wide following. He has very superficial knowledge of Islam and Muslims, but often makes sweeping generalizations.

Popular Muslims in America? Muslims have been living here and immigrating for a very long time, so it's an easy question. Here are some I can think of:
Hossein Nasr, Vali Nasr, Muhammad Ali, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Keith Ellison, Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam, Yusuf Estes, Malcolm X, Sean Stone.

[kadhim]

aliasghark, on 01 June 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

Wow, such immaturity... you really can't swallow anyone else getting in fairly can you? This is a fairly common attitude found among negatively competitive people - they insist on closing the doors behind them, and cannot see anyone doing better than them.

There are many millions of dollars being spent on creating fear of Islam and Muslims in America (and they've succeeded to an extent in the past few years), and you want people to believe this is some kind of hazing contest? Get real.

ali asghar - Let me break it down.
You're talking "ought."
He is talking "is."
"Is" takes time and usually some drama to become what "ought."
That's how it "is."

[aliasghark]

kadhim, on 02 June 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

ali asghar - Let me break it down.
You're talking "ought."
He is talking "is."
"Is" takes time and usually some drama to become what "ought."
That's how it "is."

There's one other thing though - he thinks it's natural, while I think a very large portion of it is manufactured.

[iDevonian]

aliasghark, on 02 June 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

There are instances where I think I can finally agree with you, but no, you just have to make it impossible. Bill Maher is stands out as an extremely narrow-minded and dumb guy. He may sound impressive when you listen to him initially, but lacks depth and spreads hate (including against Muslims) through his wide following. He has very superficial knowledge of Islam and Muslims, but often makes sweeping generalizations.

Popular Muslims in America? Muslims have been living here and immigrating for a very long time, so it's an easy question. Here are some I can think of:
Hossein Nasr, Vali Nasr, Muhammad Ali, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Keith Ellison, Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam, Yusuf Estes, Malcolm X, Sean Stone.

Bill maher can definitely be narrow minded, I agree.  But, of course not everyone views him that way. The main thing is they are known figures. Muhammad Ali is one, ill give you that.  Malcom X isnt the best example. Most people do not even respect malcom's black supremacy mindset, he was in some cases, no better than white supremacists, and the nation of Islam, as far as im concerned isnt even real Islam.  Same with Sean stone, hes a white guy.  And I dont know who the rest of those people are. Kareem Abdul Jabbar is ok, though hes essentially been claimed by blacks.  Cat stevens is ok, even though its kind of like a hippy white guy.

Have you ever seen the episode of the chapelle show, where racial delegates get behind a podium and claim popular figures for their race?  You should check it out on youtube if you can.

Yea, these guys are a little different than foreign immigrant muslims. Malcom X doesnt exactly represent Iraqi born or immigrated muslims.  Cat stevens doesnt exactly represent people from Afghanistan.  And the others ones, im not really familiar with. Ill google them. Like Yusuf Estates, who is this? Even wiki doesnt really say much about him.

Its more than just Islam that is transitioning into America, its the middle east and its culture.  If you gave me an example like...its honestly not even easy to give an example.  But, lets say a character like...like a legitimate muslim guy.  Long beard, popularly speaks about Islam...ya know.  Like Dawkins speaks for atheism or bill maher speaks for atheism, or like Jesse Jackson is for Christianity or...Al Sharpton etc.

These guys, you know their names, they preach christianity very publically and aloud.  Know what I mean? Whereas someone like...Muhammad Ali.  Most people when they hear Ali, he is known for boxing.  Kareem Abdul Jabbar, basketball.  So, these people, its just not equivelant to...u know.

I dont think I need to justify this, Id assume u know what I mean.  Islam is just not known in American culture. The muslims that are known, arent known for being muslims, and werent really ademant preachers of it.

I see al sharpton on tv all the time preaching christianity, but...yea.  Islam just isnt nearly as big.   And there are few representatives. And those that are known, arent really an equivelant representative of middle eastern people.

Edited by iDevonian, 02 June 2012 - 12:49 PM.

[aliasghark]

You asked for popular Muslims in America. I gave you a list of the more popular ones.

Now you're going to shift posts and talk about immigrants only?

[iDevonian]

aliasghark, on 02 June 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

You asked for popular Muslims in America. I gave you a list of the more popular ones.

Now you're going to shift posts and talk about immigrants only?

Since the beginning of the discussion, we have been discussing race and religion.  Physical appearance is very important when judging a book by its cover.  And judging a book by its cover is what bigots do. Its not just about religion.

Just because Ice Cube says hes a muslim, doesn mean he is a representative of Islam.  And when people see Ice Cube on TV, it doesnt help them learn about middle eastern Islam.

Edited by iDevonian, 03 June 2012 - 03:59 PM.

[aliasghark]

iDevonian, on 03 June 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Since the beginning of the discussion, we have been discussing race and religion.  Physical appearance is very important when judging a book by its cover.  And judging a book by its cover is what bigots do.

Ok, I was going to address the (loaded) question you had posted below that line, but now that you've removed it, I'm guessing you've found the answer.

We've been discussing 'Muslim' emancipation, versus black and Japanese and hispanic and such emancipation. We haven't been discussing 'immigrant Muslim' emancipation.

[iDevonian]

aliasghark, on 03 June 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

Ok, I was going to address the (loaded) question you had posted below that line, but now that you've removed it, I'm guessing you've found the answer.

We've been discussing 'Muslim' emancipation, versus black and Japanese and hispanic and such emancipation. We haven't been discussing 'immigrant Muslim' emancipation.

Obviously when Americans consider these things, they are considering race as well.  Its not just about Islam, its about middle eastern culture.  If you are walking down the street with a giant beard in pajamas, with a women decked out in a niqaab, obviously people will react differently than if you are some random white guy walking down the street with a blonde.  The random white guy, like sean stone of your list could be muslim, but its just not the same.

Also, these people arent equivelants like...for example, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.  These two are loud about their religion. You could avoid listening to these people and you would still see them having lunch with Obama preaching about Jesus.

Its not the same for someone like...Shaqeel Oniel who is a muslim, and yet you can watch him on tv a million times and he never ever utters the word.

Edited by iDevonian, 03 June 2012 - 04:09 PM.