52 replies to this topic

[Goku]

Construction of a Tennessee mosque that has been strongly opposed by critics of Islam likely will be stopped after a judge ruled Tuesday that local officials didn't give the public adequate notice before the meeting where it was approved.

The mosque was one of several Muslim projects in the U.S. that hit a swell of conservative opposition around the same time as the controversy over a plan to build a Muslim community center near New York's ground zero.

Chancellor Robert Corlew found that the Rutherford County Planning Commission didn't do enough to inform the public of the May 2010 meeting when it approved the site plan for the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro.

Though his ruling voids the approval, he noted there was nothing stopping the commission from reconsidering the issue and voting on the mosque site plan again, as long as any action they take is for "non-discriminatory reasons."

Saleh Sbenaty, a spokesman for the mosque, said the ruling was disappointing but his group remained committed to building the Islamic center. They have been worshipping for many years at a smaller site in Murfreesboro, a booming city of about 100,000 people southeast of Nashville.

Lead plaintiff Kevin Fisher wrote in an email, "Justice is served."

The opponents of the Tennessee mosque have fought for two years to stop construction. During lengthy hearings in 2010, they presented testimony that in effect put Islam on trial. A string of witnesses questioned whether Islam is a legitimate religion and promoted a theory that American Muslims want to replace the Constitution with extremist Islamic law and the mosque was a part of that plot.

The judge dismissed those allegations but held a trial on the narrower claim that the public meeting law was violated because meeting notice wasn't adequate. The meeting notice was published in the Murfreesboro Post, a free weekly newspaper that had a circulation of about 21,000 at the time of the legal advertisement was placed.

The ruling noted that only about 196 papers were placed in racks in unincorporated areas of the county, despite the fact that approximately one-third of the county's more than 250,000 people live in those areas.

State law requires that local governments provide "adequate public notice" for meetings, without defining what is adequate.

The county argued that local officials did all that was required of them legally by placing a notice in the print and Web editions of the newspaper -- the same practice they use for advertising all public meetings. Those notices did not include an agenda.

The judge wrote in his opinion that it was important to consider the totality of the circumstances in deciding whether the meeting notice was sufficient. That includes the intense public interest the mosque construction has generated.

After the site plan was approved, mosque opponents organized a march and rally at which about 400 people showed up, with nearly an equal number turning out for a counter-protest to support the mosque.

The mosque also became an issue in a local congressional race, with Republican candidate Lou Ann Zelenik calling it a threat to the state's moral and political foundation.

Later, a dump truck on the site was burned in what federal officials determined was arson.

In his opinion, Corlew said the public interest in the mosque meant the county should have taken extra steps to ensure that the public was aware of the meeting where it would be discussed. Without spelling out what those steps might be, he notes that the county runs a cable television station and also has a website where the meeting notice and agenda were not posted. The county says that was an oversight.

"Without publication of the issues of business to be discussed at an otherwise routine meeting, citizens may be lulled into the mind set that only routine matters will be raised at a meeting, when suddenly a matter which is to them of earthshaking importance suddenly comes forth," Corlew wrote.

County attorney Josh McCreary had argued in court that the mosque approval was a routine matter at the time and the intense public interest was part of a campaign by the plaintiffs to stir up opposition to the mosque after the fact.

"In this instance, everything they are relying on to prove this is a matter of pervasive public importance came after the lawsuit was filed," he said in court, arguing that plaintiffs had made the situation "notorious."

McCreary did not immediately return a call requesting comment on the ruling.

Although the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro is not a party to the suit, its members are the people most affected by the ruling.

Sbenaty, the mosque spokesman, said they are just beginning to digest Corlew's opinion and its implications. "I'm not sure what the next step is," he said. "We need to take some time to think this through."

As of Tuesday afternoon construction had not yet been halted, but plaintiff's attorney Thomas Smith said he expected that to happen soon.

After the ruling was made public, the Council on American-Islamic Relations called on the U.S. Justice Department to intervene to protect the rights of Muslims in Tennessee if the Planning Commission does not immediately issue new construction approvals.

"The judge's ruling is apparently based on a fictitious `heightened standard for public notice when Muslims are involved," staff Attorney Gadeir Abbas said in a statement.

[titumir]

And these are the same [Edited Out]s that call themselves the "flag bearers of religious freedom and democracy", and publish lists of countries which do not have religious freedom, and invade countries to "spread democracy".

[kadhim]

Patience. The judge actually ruled in the mosque builders' favor on the most relevant issue.
The ruling was based on procedural technicality. The ruling affirms the illegitimacy in general of blocking the mosque because it is a mosque.
This just means the mosque builders need to think ahead and be careful, because the likely followup tactic by the opponents will be to try to find some sort of "legitimate" excuse to bring up in the town meetings to give cover to pressure the vote of the municipal councillors against the project. "It'll cause traffic or parking or noise problems," "the land isn't really zoned for this purpose," "this design falls afoul of some technicality of the municipal fire code," etc. But as long as the builders stand their ground and cross their t's, dot their i's, they will prevail.

[iDevonian]

Everyone has this Islamic bias here in this room of course.

And, not to say that there arent bigots in tennessee, but realistically, laws are laws.  Often counties do not determine laws, they just make sure that property owners adhere to them.

So, it doesnt matter if they were building a mosque, or a pro american veterans memorial. If you dont follow the law, the law will not allow you to pass.

And, I work with people who deal with similar property conflicts.  And often people have this bias, and they see the county as the bad guys.  But in all actuality, if they just followed the law as they claimed they would in their proposals, then there wouldnt be an issue.

And again, thats not to say there arent bigots in tennessee, im just saying, if you want to live on this soil, you need to play by the rules. This isnt some rogue anarchist land where people can just do whatever they want, and build anything wherever they want at any given time.  You cant even build a hot dog stand without abiding by state and county law. And if you do, you are fair game to get fined, and to have your property taken from you.

So if anything, this is helping the mosque by making sure that it is built within the law, and not built palestinian style without any paper work.  Dont want any jews coming around ripping it down 20 years from now.

[Jay]

Is this even Islamically legal? If building that mosque is causing that much disunity and hatred, doesn't that contradict the purpose of Islam (to bring peace and harmony to the community and the liking)? Obviously that place isn't for Muslims.

[kadhim]

iDevonian, on 31 May 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Everyone has this Islamic bias here in this room of course.

And, not to say that there arent bigots in tennessee, but realistically, laws are laws.  Often counties do not determine laws, they just make sure that property owners adhere to them.

So, it doesnt matter if they were building a mosque, or a pro american veterans memorial. If you dont follow the law, the law will not allow you to pass.

And, I work with people who deal with similar property conflicts.  And often people have this bias, and they see the county as the bad guys.  But in all actuality, if they just followed the law as they claimed they would in their proposals, then there wouldnt be an issue.

And again, thats not to say there arent bigots in tennessee, im just saying, if you want to live on this soil, you need to play by the rules. This isnt some rogue anarchist land where people can just do whatever they want, and build anything wherever they want at any given time.  You cant even build a hot dog stand without abiding by state and county law. And if you do, you are fair game to get fined, and to have your property taken from you.

So if anything, this is helping the mosque by making sure that it is built within the law, and not built palestinian style without any paper work.  Dont want any jews coming around ripping it down 20 years from now.

Hoo-wee....yeah, you didn't read the story, eh?
That's not what it was about in the least.

Everything passed, the council reviewed the plans and approved them.
Some locals didn't like there being a mosque there, so they looked for a way to block it.
These locals succeeded, for the moment, by arguing that the municipal council didn't advertise the hearing enough before voting.
The suit won on procedural technicalities at the level of the municipal council, not because of any defect in the application.

Edited by kadhim, 31 May 2012 - 11:12 PM.

[Goku]

iDevonian, on 31 May 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Everyone has this Islamic bias here in this room of course.

And, not to say that there arent bigots in tennessee, but realistically, laws are laws.  Often counties do not determine laws, they just make sure that property owners adhere to them.

So, it doesnt matter if they were building a mosque, or a pro american veterans memorial. If you dont follow the law, the law will not allow you to pass.
Read the first line buddy, "Construction of a Tennessee mosque that has been strongly opposed by critics of Islam"
And, I work with people who deal with similar property conflicts.  And often people have this bias, and they see the county as the bad guys.  But in all actuality, if they just followed the law as they claimed they would in their proposals, then there wouldnt be an issue.

And again, thats not to say there arent bigots in tennessee, im just saying, if you want to live on this soil, you need to play by the rules. This isnt some rogue anarchist land where people can just do whatever they want, and build anything wherever they want at any given time.  You cant even build a hot dog stand without abiding by state and county law. And if you do, you are fair game to get fined, and to have your property taken from you.

So if anything, this is helping the mosque by making sure that it is built within the law, and not built palestinian style without any paper work.  Dont want any jews coming around ripping it down 20 years from now.

Yeah because if they were building a Church this wouldn't have happened at all huh? Please, it has very little to do with the law and more on the fact that these people are full of hatred for Islam. Read the first line buddy, "Construction of a Tennessee mosque that has been strongly opposed by critics of Islam"

[Gypsy]

There is nothing offensive with building the mosque. The mosque is almost completed before it was halted.

Edited by Gypsy, 01 June 2012 - 03:32 PM.

[iDevonian]

kadhim, on 31 May 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

Hoo-wee....yeah, you didn't read the story, eh?
That's not what it was about in the least.

Everything passed, the council reviewed the plans and approved them.
Some locals didn't like there being a mosque there, so they looked for a way to block it.
These locals succeeded, for the moment, by arguing that the municipal council didn't advertise the hearing enough before voting.
The suit won on procedural technicalities at the level of the municipal council, not because of any defect in the application.

Yea, fair enough. Theyre probably just a bunch of islamaphobes

Though, realistically, the locals have perfect right to protest the building of anything and everything in their own town.

Goku, on 01 June 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

Yeah because if they were building a Church this wouldn't have happened at all huh? Please, it has very little to do with the law and more on the fact that these people are full of hatred for Islam. Read the first line buddy, "Construction of a Tennessee mosque that has been strongly opposed by critics of Islam"

The law is the law.

Just a heads up to everyone.  People protest everything out here.  This is America, in case nobody noticed.  The place where you can sue and fight against anything and everything.  And people do, believe me. Granted, its probably a bunch of racist white trash doing the protesting, but thats how it goes.

There were people legally fighting against the construction of a dog kennel near me.  Thats right, a place where you drop your dog off, like a childrens day care, and people had a problem with it.

So, if people have a problem with doggy day care, its not surprising for them to also have a problem with religious constructs.

And yes, people do protest against the building of churches too.  People protest against Christianity related movements all the time.

No demographic earns their stripes in America, without going through the gauntlet.  If you were Irish, Japanese, black or even mexican, you would know that. So let the foreigners earn their stripes like everyone else.

If the Muslims actions are justified, then with time, they will be fine.

Edited by iDevonian, 01 June 2012 - 06:11 PM.

[Goku]

Gypsy, on 01 June 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

There is nothing offensive with building the mosque. The mosque is almost completed before it was halted.

They wanted to complete it before shahr Ramadan too, poor muslims=[

iDevonian, on 01 June 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

Yea, fair enough. Theyre probably just a bunch of islamaphobes

Though, realistically, the locals have perfect right to protest the building of anything and everything in their own town.



The law is the law.

Just a heads up to everyone.  People protest everything out here.  This is America, in case nobody noticed.  The place where you can sue and fight against anything and everything.  And people do, believe me. Granted, its probably a bunch of racist white trash doing the protesting, but thats how it goes.

There were people legally fighting against the construction of a dog kennel near me.  Thats right, a place where you drop your dog off, like a childrens day care, and people had a problem with it.

So, if people have a problem with doggy day care, its not surprising for them to also have a problem with religious constructs.

And yes, people do protest against the building of churches too.  People protest against Christianity related movements all the time.

No demographic earns their stripes in America, without going through the gauntlet.  If you were Irish, Japanese, black or even mexican, you would know that. So let the foreigners earn their stripes like everyone else.

If the Muslims actions are justified, then with time, they will be fine.

But why would people protest the mosque, if a church was being built and it didn't follow the law guidelines I wouldn't protest nor care. Since when did citizens start caring about the law? They don't unless it is about Islam. Oh and don't get me started on the states wanting to ban "shariah" law.

[iDevonian]

Goku, on 01 June 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

But why would people protest the mosque, if a church was being built and it didn't follow the law guidelines I wouldn't protest nor care. Since when did citizens start caring about the law? They don't unless it is about Islam. Oh and don't get me started on the states wanting to ban "shariah" law.

People protest, because they do not like change.  People prefer continuity.  Since when did people start caring about the law? You are young Goku, you should trust me when I say, many people care about the law.  In this case, it may be about Islam, but that doesnt mean that this doesnt happen to everyone else too.

But you know, it is important to scrutinize newcomers.  Nobody wants a bunch of bafoons entering their country, or state or county etc.  Islam needs to prove itself. And the people need to prove themselves.

Edited by iDevonian, 01 June 2012 - 06:31 PM.

[Gypsy]

iDevonian, on 01 June 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Islam needs to prove itself. And the people need to prove themselves.

What? What does this mean exactly?


There are loads of Churches, mosques, synagogues and temples in the USA. People of any religion can practice their faith freely in the USA. We are not living in the dark age IDevonian.

Edited by Gypsy, 01 June 2012 - 06:42 PM.

[aliasghark]

Gypsy, on 01 June 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

What? What does this mean exactly?


There are loads of Churches, mosques, synagogues and temples in the USA. People of any religion can practice their faith freely in the USA. We are not living in the dark age IDevonian.

Haha, iDevonian seems kind of immature... religions don't need to 'prove' anything before they're allowed

[iDevonian]

Gypsy, on 01 June 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

What? What does this mean exactly?


There are loads of Churches, mosques, synagogues and temples in the USA. People of any religion can practice their faith freely in the USA. We are not living in the dark age IDevonian.

That is our legal system, yes.  But, there is a difference between liberty through law, and liberty through social interactions. Muslims havent earned the respect or trust from many Americans.  Thats what it comes down to.  And this has happened in history with just about every other foreign race or culture that has come here.

The Japs were locked up during WWII, my grandfather was sprayed with firehoses, and attacked by police dogs just for being black.  Americans were disgusted by the Irish when they first came, and mexicans...well, we just beat them up quite a bit over the generations.

So, muslims, well, lets take this tennesse mosque for example. Many of these people are probably middle eastern. Moving into a strongly predominantly white area. Or a strongly predominantly christian area.

You cant expect to just waltz up into an area in America, and not to have to jump over some hurdles to earn trust and respect.  And I would give examples of this in other countries (which of course there are),  but America is probably the best example for this just because of the...the history of what America is and who we are.  This country was built on strength in diversity, while...ya know, uniting the states. Never in history has that diversity not first been a struggle or a fight based on religion or race.

aliasghark, on 01 June 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

Haha, iDevonian seems kind of immature... religions don't need to 'prove' anything before they're allowed

Religions may not so much, but people do.

You guys need to pick up your history books.  This is how it works, and its nothing new.

The reality is, if these foreigners are genuine, and they bring beneficial ideas and applications. They will help define America and they will be just as American if not more American than everyone else.  Islam will prosper, and the people will too. So, you guys should have nothing to worry about.

The people of Tennessee are just trying to make sure nobody comes up in here, messing up the gravy train.

And real talk, many countries out here you couldnt even legally build a mosque in, depending on the region.  Muslims would be just as likely to get killed, let alone have a mosque approved for them, so understand that there are people on all sides of the table at all times.  Our laws are made with flexibility to suit our needs, and there is never a time in which laws are somehow, beyond the power of the people. So if the people are racist bigots, well thats just too bad.

well, to a degree...obviously people arent going to overthrow the constitution or anything like that. But you know...

Edited by iDevonian, 01 June 2012 - 07:41 PM.

[aliasghark]

iDevonian, on 01 June 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

Religions may not so much, but people do.

You guys need to pick up your history books.  This is how it works, and its nothing new.

The reality is, if these foreigners are genuine, and they bring beneficial ideas and applications. They will help define America and they will be just as American if not more American than everyone else.  Islam will prosper, and the people will too. So, you guys should have nothing to worry about.

The people of Tennessee are just trying to make sure nobody comes up in here, messing up the gravy train.

And real talk, many countries out here you couldnt even legally build a mosque in, depending on the region.  Muslims would be just as likely to get killed, let alone have a mosque approved for them, so understand that there are people on all sides of the table at all times.  Our laws are made with flexibility to suit our needs, and there is never a time in which laws are somehow, beyond the power of the people. So if the people are racist bigots, well thats just too bad.

No, it's pretty much intolerant bigots stirring things up this time: http://www.nytimes.c.../31shariah.html

[ImAli]

[iDevonian]

aliasghark, on 01 June 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

No, it's pretty much intolerant bigots stirring things up this time: http://www.nytimes.c.../31shariah.html

You pretty much just ignored everything I said.

Muslims/Foreigners need to earn their stripes. Thats all it comes down to.  No other race in America has gotten in without it.

And yes, im sure there are racist bigots amongst the crowd, which I have said multiple times now.  But it doesnt change the situation.  It is the natural way.

You guys are all acting like these muslims have it bad because their mosque which was approved and being built, all of a sudden runs into a little trouble.

Meanwhile other races out here are like...oh please.  My ancestors were slaves whipped by white people.  Other peoples ancestors were wrangled up and thrown in prison. Spat on, churches burned to the grown etc.

This is light work, these muslims have it easy compared to people trying to make it into America in the past. So I say, let them earn it like everyone else. Dont give them any short cuts, and keep out the bafoons please. The last thing anyone wants is some more religious people running around preaching harun yahya. Already have enough of that.

Edited by iDevonian, 01 June 2012 - 08:04 PM.

[aliasghark]

iDevonian, on 01 June 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

You pretty much just ignored everything I said.

Muslims/Foreigners need to earn their stripes. Thats all it comes down to.  No other race in America has gotten in without it.

I know what you're saying, I just think it's rubbish.

[iDevonian]

aliasghark, on 01 June 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

I know what you're saying, I just think it's rubbish.

How is it rubbish?

what you think masses of foreigners should just be able to walk up in a predominantly white county, spring up a mosque and everything should be dandy?

We arent living in a fairy tale.  This may be a free land, but even here you cant just do anything u like 100% of the time.  And im sure many muslims and foreigners did just walk in this country and did just build up their own mosques.  But it should be no surprise that you hear about conflict now and again.

If anything, Id be greatful that they could even originally get that mosque approved.  50 years ago, they would have been hog tied and thrown in the back seat of the bus. And im not even joking about that.  If you know American history, you know they are getting off easy.

haha, people complaining because a mosque that is already 90% built may get a temporary delay.  That's nothing. People get delays on building hot dog stands in this country, for something like...most likely immigrants (race), building a mosque (religion)...in Tennessee of all states (a state notorious for racism).  You know they are getting off easy.

And the only reason its hot on the news is because Islam sells almost as much as sex does with our media.  This story is a dime a dozen.

Edited by iDevonian, 01 June 2012 - 08:13 PM.

[aliasghark]

iDevonian, on 01 June 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

How is it rubbish?

Ok, once again: Muslims were integrating pretty well (having been here for many generations) until the recent few years when Islamophobic activities ramped up. (I don't know why you're coming up with a random patriarchal argument.. you sound so much like college students in the 2nd year, who really want to see their new 1st year classmates bullied and abused, just because you had to go through that the year before)

http://www.americanp...lamophobia.html

[iDevonian]

aliasghark, on 01 June 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

Ok, once again: Muslims were integrating pretty well (having been here for many generations) until the recent few years when Islamophobic activities ramped up. (I don't know why you're coming up with a random patriarchal argument.. you sound so much like college students in the 2nd year, who really want to see their new 1st year classmates bullied and abused, just because you had to go through that the year before)

http://www.americanp...lamophobia.html

Muslims are so few in number, their integration has just begun.  Many, especially with the recent wars are immigrating here, and increasing in numbers is only going to make the topic come up more and more.

This is just the beginning.

Middle easterns have not passed the gauntlet.  Thats all there is to it. In time, they will though.  But this is only the beginning.

Muslims integrating just fine, in a country which still flares up for weeks over the travon martin case, you think middle easterners could just slide in haha. In a country where Obama and racist are used in the same sentence during every congressional discussion. You think middle easterners could just slide in and build a mosque without a peep.

You know, this is how it goes. Nobody should act surprised.

And im not saying I think their mosque should be torn down or anything like that.  Im just saying, this is America.  Even if 9/11 never happened, this would still be in the headlines. People fight every little thing out here, legally.  Especially religion, and especially concepts related to racism.  And especially concepts dealing with foreigners, and especially in a state like Tennessee.

I could have told you this would happen years ago, even prior to 9/11. And its going to keep happening.

And dont get me wrong, I would be one of the people working to approve the mosque, but that doesnt mean im somehow stunned or shocked that there are people against it.

Edited by iDevonian, 01 June 2012 - 08:28 PM.

[aliasghark]

iDevonian, on 01 June 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

Muslims are so few in number, their integration has just begun.  Many, especially with the recent wars are immigrating here, and increasing in numbers is only going to make the topic come up more and more.

This is just the beginning.

Wow, such immaturity... you really can't swallow anyone else getting in fairly can you? This is a fairly common attitude found among negatively competitive people - they insist on closing the doors behind them, and cannot see anyone doing better than them.

There are many millions of dollars being spent on creating fear of Islam and Muslims in America (and they've succeeded to an extent in the past few years), and you want people to believe this is some kind of hazing contest? Get real.

[iDevonian]

aliasghark, on 01 June 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

Wow, such immaturity... you really can't swallow anyone else getting in fairly can you? This is a fairly common attitude found among negatively competitive people - they insist on closing the doors behind them, and cannot see anyone doing better than them.

There are many millions of dollars being spent on creating fear of Islam and Muslims in America (and they've succeeded to an extent in the past few years), and you want people to believe this is some kind of hazing contest? Get real.

Its not a hazing contest, its reality. Tell me the difference between this and integration of blacks, japanese or irish. And if we really need to, I could compare integration of these people with integration of native Americans.  If a Native American asked to built a spirit shrine, they would have been shot on site.

So, things are getting better, but u know its the same old same old. This is the way its been since...even pre america times. Another comparison.  Gays.  Gays cant even marry in this country not in most states (even though you can marry your first cousin in many which is aruably worst), theyre arguably second class citizens.  Now obviously their rights are being worked with and are expanding, but you know they are having a hard time too.

Edited by iDevonian, 01 June 2012 - 08:36 PM.

[aliasghark]

iDevonian, on 01 June 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Its not a hazing contest, its reality. Tell me the difference between this and integration of blacks, japanese or irish.

You're talking about the times when racism and gender discrimination were in the law. I'm talking about now.