7 replies to this topic

[MysticKnight]

When it comes down to hadiths, at the end, you can't trust all hadiths, because they contradict each other.

When it comes to Sunni hadiths, Shias don't trust Sunni Scholarship on what is authentic or not. Rather they trust their own scholarship on what is authentic and what is not. Sunnis don't trust Shia Scholarship and regard Shia hadiths to be almost all fabricated.

If this is the case, then hadiths that would indicate Shiism is true if they are true themselves in Sunni literature are not a real proof. Why? Because Sunni scholarship is not relied upon as authoritative.

Both Sunni and Shia reject some of each other's "mutuwatir" hadiths.  So how can any hadith be a decisive proof of one sect over the other?

At most, you can show there is inconsistency in what is deemed authentic and not. It would show that one scholarship is wrong.

However to rely that you are right, you would have to prove that your scholarship is correct, they are right to what is authentic and what is not.

But if the other sect is wrong, and their scholars are wrong, what makes you think your scholars somehow knew a way to know whom is trustworthy and whom isn't?

The alternative to relying on scholars, is just following hadiths that feel right to you. But then this a tatamount to just picking and choosing what you like or have no problem with.

And so what is the proof of the authority of scholars?

It seems Islam comes down to really submitting yourself to authority of fallible people at the end of the day. We see this is the living reality where people rely on scholars.

It all comes down to authority of scholars. Sunnis trust in their scholars, Shias trust in their scholars. Everything they tell them, they  accept.

So it seems  in Islam, God just wanted you to follow opinions of fallible people at the end?

[Ugly Jinn]

In reality, Islam is not a 100% divine religion, it's not even close.

The bulk of the data comes from fallible sources via fallible narrators via fallible compilers via fallible raters via fallible interpreters via fallible scholars.

The evidence you pointed out is obvious, and the plethora of variances is proof enough. Even the Usool ad-Deen, which are the fundamentals of Shia Islam, are constructed by fallibles. Nowhere in the Quran it states "The 5 Roots of Religion are ..................".

I keep repeating the following because it basically proves how people's mindset work. Most (95%+) of humans are born into a religion, the religion is tattooed in their head since youth, hence they have a bias since youth, hence objective analysis hardly exists - their brains are tainted from the start. If by chance all the hardcore Shias on this website were born to Sunni families, 95% of them would be on sunnichat.com praising Sunni Islam.

Nor are the 5% converts trending towards Shia Islam, the converts are all over the place from Hinduism to Atheism.

You are the 5%.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 31 May 2012 - 11:26 PM.

[wundermonk]

Ugly Jinn, on 31 May 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

In reality, Islam is not a 100% divine religion, it's not even close.

I would love to know how it would be possible to differentiate a divine religion from a non-divine religion. What are the criteria?

[singham]

what i believe is all primary beliefs of islam  are defined in quran . hadiths only give explanation of primary beliefs  or secondary beliefs . not only shias reject mutawatir hadiths of sunnis but also sunni scholar such as javaid ahmed ghamidi etc reject mu[Edited Out]tir hadiths about arrival of mehdi and massiah. one can not be called kaffir if he reject beliefs described  in hadiths .

[Gypsy]

MysticKnight, on 30 May 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

It seems Islam comes down to really submitting yourself to authority of fallible people at the end of the day. We see this is the living reality where people rely on scholars.

It all comes down to authority of scholars. Sunnis trust in their scholars, Shias trust in their scholars. Everything they tell them, they  accept.

So it seems  in Islam, God just wanted you to follow opinions of fallible people at the end?

I should not even be reading any of your posts   You are also a fallible human being so everything you say must be wrong, incorrect, untruth and lies.

[shia4life669]

Thats why a hadith should be tested through the quran and also there is many hadiths that we shia and sunnah agree on so whats the problem? falibality or not Allah is the protecter of truth.

[iDevonian]

Even the Quran isnt what it used to be. It has been interpreted by these same fallible scholars over the years, essentially defined by them.

[Ugly Jinn]

wundermonk, on 31 May 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

I would love to know how it would be possible to differentiate a divine religion from a non-divine religion. What are the criteria?

Well, empirical evidence would sway me. A divine agent which can authenticate himself empirically.