11 replies to this topic

[786abdullah786]

Whilst discussing the ghali concept of tafwid in general forums I asked Macisaac a question he might have missed, I'm hoping he will read it here or anyone else might be able to contribute:

Quote

macisaac, thank you, that really cleared a lot up for me and I will definitely get hold of Modarresi's book. Is there anything else in English that you recommend on topics such as Ghulat narrations making their way into our hadith collections, ghulat concepts being adopted by mainstream Shi'ism or just foreign concepts making their way into our school in general?

(The book that is being referred to is Hossein Modarressi's "Crisis and Consolidation"

[Kaniz e Zahra]

He must have seen your post,but also your intention.
First you so innocently asked what tafwid is then suddenly jumped on ghulat,and everything like you knew a lot.
When everything get settled,then why you want to make Shias fight?
If you are serious for learning then you could pm him,why to start a new thread?quite suspicious it sounds.
First you will get answers then start mixing up tafwid with mainstream Shia beliefs,making it a fitnah thread at last.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra, 29 May 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[Gypsy]

Can someone link to the original thread. I was reading the topic yesterday, but can't seem to locate the thread now.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Gypsy, on 29 May 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Can someone link to the original thread. I was reading the topic yesterday, but can't seem to locate the thread now.

It was in general forums,don't have the link.

[Haji 2003]

http://www.shiachat....on/page__st__50

[786abdullah786]

Kaniz e Zahra, on 29 May 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

He must have seen your post,but also your intention.
First you so innocently asked what tafwid is then suddenly jumped on ghulat,and everything like you knew a lot.
When everything get settled,then why you want to make Shias fight?
If you are serious for learning then you could pm him,why to start a new thread?quite suspicious it sounds.
First you will get answers then start mixing up tafwid with mainstream Shia beliefs,making it a fitnah thread at last.

Theres no fight here so take your conspiracy suspicions elsewhere. I don't even want any fights or discussions, I want Macisaac or anyone as knowledgable as him to recommend us some further academic reading on the topic. You can even ask the mods to delete any post other than book recommendations or lock the thread once we have a nice book list, I don't care so stop insinuating things like you've read my mind and looked into my heart, and keep debating the actual topic in the original thread. Have a nice day.

[Ali_Hussain]

I would also like to get my hands on any articles that talk about the time when the qummi scholars were against ghulu and expelled people from there who held such beliefs.

any recommendations?

[Amir-Husayn]

Modarresi's book is very good and another useful book may be Andrew Newman's, The Formative Period of Twelever Shi'ism. Also, for an alternative perspesctive you may want to read Amir-Moezzi's, The Divine Guide in Early Shi'ism as well as his Spirituality of Shi'i Islam​.

[rotten_coconut]

Amir-Husayn, on 30 May 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

Modarresi's book is very good and another useful book may be Andrew Newman's, The Formative Period of Twelever Shi'ism. Also, for an alternative perspesctive you may want to read Amir-Moezzi's, The Divine Guide in Early Shi'ism as well as his Spirituality of Shi'i Islam​.

Are there any pdf files for these books/articles?

[macisaac]

I don't really have much to add to the thread unfortunately.  There is some decent academic literature out there on the early centuries of Imamism, but the general rule with such works is they can be very hit and miss within a single book, so always to be taken with a grain of salt.  Newman's book I seem to remember as being a decent read, Amir-Moezzi is kind of the reverse of all this, arguing pretty much it seems that in the earliest centuries that was is now identified as ghulw was then part and parcel of Imamism (I strongly disagree obviously).  You can also look to different journal articles out there with varying success on different figures in those times.

The best source of course is none other than the sources themselves, to go back to the ahadith and earlier scholar's texts, and just compare to what you find becoming mainstream later on.

[Gypsy]

macisaac, on 30 May 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

Amir-Moezzi is kind of the reverse of all this, arguing pretty much it seems that in the earliest centuries that was is now identified as ghulw was then part and parcel of Imamism (I strongly disagree obviously).  You can also look to different journal articles out there with varying success on different figures in those times.

I haven't read both of his books but in his book The Divine Guide in Early Shi'sm : The Sources of Esotericism in Islam, Mohammad Ali Amir Moezzi was responding to Marshall G. S. Hodgson writing about ghulats.

Here are quotes from his book.

Quote

On page 232, the author pointed out that the greatest number of Ghulat was not in the entourages of the fifth or sixth Imams but in the entourages of the tenth and eight Imams.

Through an injustifiable twisting of the situation, and in contradiction to the texts, Hodgson (who authored an article on Ghulât) states that it was the imams who were influenced by "extremist" ideas; he thus turns disciples into teachers and teachers into disciples.

I am of course nof familiar with his other work or this work in detail.

[muhibb-ali]

Salam.

Read more about that book here:
http://www.shiachat....f-shiite-islam/