76 replies to this topic

[placid]

Hi Netzari,

Thank you, our family is fine, and it is good to hear from you again.
Thanks for the info on Baptism which was not 'new,' --- but continued to be a symbol of ‘renewal,’ which was practiced in relation to the Feasts.

Quote from Post 49 --- (Directed to Soloman):
I'm glad that you brought Keturah up! There are some interesting Jewish traditions regarding Keturah that Muslims might appreciate. The Midrash (in Bereishis Rabbah and Targum Yonathan) and Rashi say that Abraham remarried Hagar (after sending her away in 21:9). Her name was changed because her deeds were as beautiful as incense (ketores),


Response: --- I have heard this before and it is doubtful, but to check it out we can calculate the age of Hagar --- It would have been an honorable thing for Abraham to do, and since he kept in touch with Ishmael, he perhaps could have found her.
Let’s suppose that Hagar was 24 when she was a maidservant to Sarah, and according to some dating we have, Ishmael was born about 1911 BC.

Sarah would have been 76, since she was 90 when Isaac was born 14 years later in about 1897 BC
Gen 23:1.  Sarah lived one hundred and twenty-seven years; these were the years of the life of Sarah.

--- Sarah would have lived after Ishmael was born, 51 years.
So Hagar would have been perhaps 75.

If Abraham found her again after Sarah’s death, perhaps within a year or two, and had six more children at the rate of one a year, that would be another 7 or 8 years, --- so by the time the sixth child was born, Hagar would be perhaps  82-83.
--- So, I say it is doubtful that Keturah was Hagar.

However, the important thing is where they settled in the land, is it not?

(I will post that interesting history next, --- and ask you how close this is to your understanding.)


Placid

[placid]

(To continue with the descendants of Abraham.)

After the flood, it says in Genesis 9:
18. Now the sons of Noah who went out of the ark were Shem, Ham, and Japheth. 19 These three were the sons of Noah, and from these the whole earth was populated.

--- The genealogies of the sons of Noah are listed in Genesis 10, and as they multiplied they moved out as it says:
5 From these the coastland peoples of the Gentiles were separated into their lands, everyone according to his language, according to their families, into their nations.

Notice, they were called Gentiles.
The dates reveal that there was 500 years from Noah to Ishmael, so much of the country was overspread, long before Ishmael came to the area of Mecca in Saudi Arabia.

--- There would be perhaps quite a few million Gentiles from the generations before Ishmael, but this land in Saudi Arabia had not been occupied by others, --- but seemingly, was the area that God preserved for him, --- and his family of 12 sons, who all lived around him.

--- If Ishmael and his immediate family lived in the area of Mecca, --- (and his expanded family), --- ‘who built towns and settlements and occupied from east of Egypt to Assyria in the north,’ then this was the inheritance that God promised to Abraham in Genesis 17:
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.
--- (Saudi Arabia is still a great nation, is it not?)

--- After Sarah had died (in 1860), Abraham took a wife, Keturah, and they had six sons. In Gen 25, their Genealogy is given, and it also says this:

5. AND ABRAHAM GAVE ALL THAT HE HAD TO ISAAC.
6. But Abraham gave gifts to the sons of the concubines which Abraham had; and while he was still living he sent them eastward, away from Isaac his son, to the country of the east.

--- So there was no inheritance given to these six children of Abraham in the land of Canaan, --- but the inheritance of Ishmael and his kingdom would be the country to the east. --- The area of Jordan and Saudi Arabia.
--- (So, they were sent eastward from Canaan, into Jordan. So these half-brothers of Ishmael would no doubt have settled in central and northern Jordon, between their half-brother Ishmael, and their half-brother Isaac.)

Another interesting thing, was where Esau finally dwelt.

Isaac’s sons, Esau and Jacob, both dwelt in Canaan and increased in possessions.
--- (Esau married one of Ishmael’s daughters, which also joined the family closer together.)

Genesis 36:6. Then Esau took his wives, his sons, his daughters, and all the persons of his household, his cattle and all his animals, and all his goods, which he had gained in the land of Canaan, and went to a country away from the presence of his brother Jacob      
7. For their possessions were too great for them to dwell together in Canaan, because of their livestock, so Esau moved away from his brother Jacob, to Mount Seir in Edom.

--- Edom was in southern Jordan, so all the children and grandchildren of ABRAHAM  were in these areas:

Jacob and his descendants remained in Canaan, their Promised Land

Ishmael had 12 Princes, so he had his kingdom in Saudi Arabia,
Genesis 25:17. These were the years of the life of Ishmael: one hundred and thirty-seven years; and he breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his people.
18 (They dwelt from Havilah as far as Shur, which is east of Egypt as you go toward Assyria.)
--- So they dwelt from east of Egypt in the south, up to Assyria in the north.

The six sons of Abraham and Kerurah settled in Jordan.

Esau dwelt in Edom in southern Jordan.
Genesis 36:8. So Esau dwelt in Mount Seir. Esau is Edom.


Going back to the sons of Noah, from whom the world was populated,
---The Gentile nations, no doubt expanded west into Europe, --- the majority settled north, above and below the Black Sea, then east and south into Persia, presently Iraq and Iran.

Abraham’s descendants were in Israel, Jordan and Saudi Arabia
--- All other Arab countries were the Gentile descendants of Noah and his family, --- so they were not the descendants of ABRAHAM, were they?

--- And really, the Arab countries outside of Saudi Arabia, were not descendants of Ishmael, were they?
--- So, apart from Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Israel, --- all Arabs were descendants of the Sons of Noah, were they not?


Placid

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

I had responded in Post 47 to what Jesus said concerning the Law

Jesus had said to the disciples in John 13:
34 A new Commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

He said again to the disciples in John 14:
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

When the lawyer asked, what is the great commandment of the Law, Jesus answered in Matthew 22:
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

--- So Jesus said the first and great commandment of the law is to love God (in total surrender to Him).
And the second is to Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
--- (And this is fulfilled by ‘doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.’ Matthew 7:12)

He said, “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

How does Love fulfill the Ten Commandments? --- Exodus 20:
1. Love and trust God only.
2. Worship God only (no idols or images).
3. Use God’s name in ways that honor Him.
4. Rest and worship on the Sabbath (seventh) day.
5. Respect and obey your parents.
6. Protect and respect human life.
7. Be true to your husband or wife.
8. Do not take what belongs to others.
9. Do not lie about others.
10. Be satisfied with what you have.

--- If you love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, you will not have any other gods before Him, --- You will not take His name in vain, --- you will honor His day that is set aside for worship.
--- If you love your parents you will obey them as children, --- honor them in your youth, --- and care for them in their old age.
--- If you love your neighbors, you will not kill them, --- commit adultery with or against them, --- steal from them, --- lie to them or about them, --- be envious of what they have.

--- Thus, in the attitude of Love you would fulfill these ten commandments, which are the "code of ethics" for all mankind.


And because we are making comparison to what Paul said about the Law being set aside, --- What does he say about the Law of Love?

1 Corinthians 13 says the following:
1.Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

--- Notice that among all the assets, Paul says the same as Jesus, THE GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE


Placid

[soloman]

Hi Placid

-Your quote:
Jesus had said to the disciples in John 13:
34 A new Commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

When the lawyer asked, what is the great commandment of the Law, Jesus answered in Matthew 22:
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

--- Notice that among all the assets, Paul says the same as Jesus, THE GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE

-My response:
The verses in John 13 is from Jesus to His disciples -- for what reason - to show all they are His disciples.
Whether they eventually obeyed Him after He was raised - up , God alone Knows.

When Jesus answered the lawyer in Matthew 22:37-40 , He was merely explaining the Law in a 'nutshell'.
Jesus did not tell the lawyer to abolish the Law - but gave him the bases of the Law.

If you claim to LOVE God - you will obey All His commandments -- is it not ?

Concerning Paul ,well , It is only obvious that God wants us to LOVE Him , All Scripture makes reference to this -- is it not ?

God wants our LOVE - But certainly not in NEED of our Love.

God's Love means LIVING His Laws - meaning circumcision of the Heart and circumcision of the Flesh ,we must do both -- is it not ?.

Soloman

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

Yes, Jesus gave the new commandment of love, then said, "If you love me, keep my commandments.


Later, jesus said also in John, 14:
21. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

--- This makes it more personal and definite, so it is those who keep the commandments that really show love.

Again in this verse:
23, Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him,

--- This indicates that the proof of love is obedience to God's word.


Quote: If you claim to LOVE God - you will obey All His commandments -- is it not ?


--- Many may clain to love God but that doesn't mean they really do. I John 2:
³ Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
⁴ He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
⁵ But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
⁶ He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.


4.20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

²¹ And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also
--- yes, Gods Love means living His laws.

[soloman]

Hi Placid

Your quote:
Yes, Jesus gave the new commandment of love, then said, "If you love me, keep my commandments.

My response:
The 'new commandment of love ' as you put it ,was actually not so new.

Throughout the Old Scripture we are taught about God's LOVE.

- Exodus 34:6
-6) And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in LOVE  and faithfulness,

- Numbers 14:18
-18) 'The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.'

- Deuteronomy 4:31
-31) For the LORD your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your forefathers, which he confirmed to them by oath.

- Nehemiah 9:17
-17) But you are a forgiving God, gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love.

- Psalm 86:15
-15) But you, O Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness.

- Psalm 108:4
-4) For great is your love, higher than the heavens; your faithfulness reaches to the skies.

- Joel 2:13
-13) Rend your heart and not your garments. Return to the LORD your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, and he relents from sending calamity.

- Psalm 86:5
-5) You are forgiving and good, O Lord, abounding in love to all who call to you.

From these verses it is clear that when Jesus spoke of LOVE He was only expressing what God already expressed through previous prophets.

Even if Jesus had not come, we would still know all about God's LOVE, by virtue of the above verses.

Jesus, as He testifies ,  He never came to change the Law - not even a dot.

Jesus spoke more about judgement and hell than about Love.

Soloman

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

(Your) response (in Post 56):
The 'new commandment of love ' as you put it ,was actually not so new.
Throughout the Old Scripture we are taught about God's LOVE.
- Exodus 34:6
-6) And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in LOVE and faithfulness,

Response: --- You are right, the ‘new commandment’ that Jesus gave to the disciples was not ‘new,’ --- but it was a new commandment to them because they would not have learned it from the teaching of the Pharisees.

The Scripture in Deuteronomy 6:4-5 says:
4. “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

--- And all the good verses you listed from the OT should have kept the Jews believing God’s love for them, --- but what happened was that they applied some of the commandments differently than the way they were written.
--- (They didn't change the Scripture, they just misused it.)

And here it is in Matthew 5:
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

43. --- There is no Scripture that says, ‘love your neighbors and hate your enemy.’
--- If you notice, Jesus didn’t even mention that wasn’t in the written word, --- but this was what the Pharisees taught.
Rather than ‘Love God and love your neighbor,’ --- they adjusted it to --- ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

This would allow anyone who was not in harmony as a neighbor, to be an enemy, so you had the right to hate them.
So the law that the Pharisees taught gave permission to hate.

--- So you can understand that if a regime said that if others were not friends or neighbors, --- they were enemies or infidels, --- so it would build a hateful society.

That is the contrast to loving God first and then --- loving your neighbor, BECAUSE YOU LOVE GOD,
--- But to take God out of the equation, --- you can have a love-hate attitude towards others.

--- But to be honorable before God, you can’t harbor hatred in your heart.

So Jesus goes on to emphasize LOVE YOUR ENEMIES. --- And gives the rewards of love, ‘that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.’

48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

This word ‘perfect’ does not mean ‘without flaw’ --- but more like ‘doing the perfect will of God,’ ---therefore fulfilling the “Great commandments of Love.”


Placid

[soloman]

Hi Placid

- Your quote:
--- And all the good verses you listed from the OT should have kept the Jews believing God’s love for them, --- but what happened was that they applied some of the commandments differently than the way they were written.
--- (They didn't change the Scripture, they just misused it.)

- My response:
Your assessment that the Pharisees misused the Scripture is also what I believe but I also believe Christians are guilty of the same thing
that you accuse the Pharisees of - wrongfully attributing the OT verses to suggest that Jesus is the promised King from Davids line.



-Your quote:
This would allow anyone who was not in harmony as a neighbor, to be an enemy, so you had the right to hate them.
So the law that the Pharisees taught gave permission to hate.

-My response:
Your accusation is a bit biased, for Jesus also taught hatred.

Luke 14:26
-26) "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.
-- Is there any verse that the Pharisees taught that have more hatred in it than the above verse ?

Rom 9:13
-13) Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
-- Is this not hatred from God ? How else could the Pharisees have understood this verse ?

Revelation 2:6
-6) But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
-- Is it not ironic that John of Patmos who is said to have written Revelation also hates - he is supposed to be filled with the holy spirit - is it not ?


-Your quote:
--- There is no Scripture that says, ‘love your neighbors and hate your enemy.’

-My response:
Psalm 79:6
-6) Pour out your wrath on the nations that do not acknowledge you, on the kingdoms that do not call on your name;
-- Is this not hatred on those who do not acknowledge God ?

Psalm 139:21-22
-21) Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD, and abhor those who rise up against you?
-22) I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies.

-- Are these not examples of hatred in the Scripture ?

Soloman

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

Good answer.
Quote: Luke 14:26
-26) "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.
-- Is there any verse that the Pharisees taught that have more hatred in it than the above verse ?  

Response: --- I think it is logical to say that if the Christians had wanted to ‘change’ a word in the NT, to make it more understandable or acceptable, it would have been this word ‘hate,’ because of the way it is used.

Dake’s annotated Bible calls this, ‘an idiom of preference.’
The Amplified Bible renders it this way:
26 If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his [own] father and mother [in the sense of indifference to or relative disregard for them in comparison with his attitude toward God] and [likewise] his wife and children and brothers and sisters—[yes] and even his own life also—he cannot be My disciple.

The motto of the Bible is ‘God first.’

There is a little more revealed within the verses.
Jesus had drawn His close band of disciples, and from them chose 12 who had left their families and professions to follow Him.

Chapter 14 is written in parables, which was His method of teaching:
1-6 --- Healing on the Sabbath with a parable of a farmer.
7-14 --- Humility, take the lowly place.
15-24 --- The parable of the ‘great supper.’

Now, 25, ‘Great multitudes went with Him.’ --- He had healed the sick and fed the 5000, so they followed Him for what they were receiving, so he taught them in Parables, --- and in 25-27 He challenges them with ‘dedication’ by forsaking all to follow Him, as the disciples had done.

25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them,
26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

28-32 --- another two parables on counting the cost of discipleship
--- And concluding this teaching with this verse:
33.So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

34-35 --- a final parable about one who turns back on his purpose,  or abandons his dedication. --- The chapter end with these words that require a deeper look:
“He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

It would read better if it was put together this way:
26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also (by comparison to his Love for God). he cannot be My disciple.
27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
33.So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.


Quote: Rom 9:13
-13) Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
-- Is this not hatred from God ? How else could the Pharisees have understood this verse ?

Response: --- You are right, this may have influenced the Pharisees somewhat.
Romans 9:13. (Amplified Bible) 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).


Quote: Revelation 2:6
-6) But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
-- Is it not ironic that John of Patmos who is said to have written Revelation also hates - he is supposed to be filled with the holy spirit - is it not ?

Response: --- This does not mention hatred of the people, but their ‘practices’
--- (The same as we 'hate' the practices of the world today.)

The other verses from the OT speak of hating enemies, --- But in the Gospel Jesus taught love, so we must ‘choose’ love to be in right relationship with God in our New Testament faith, do we not?


Placid

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

There are certain OT verses that seem to condone hatred and murder. --- The fact that the ungodly had to be destroyed to allow the righteous to succeed, tells us that God had to make choices and show preferences.

In the NT where God is CALLED the heavenly Father, and Jesus is CALLED the Son, there are verses like these from Matthew 5:
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

--- And in these verses, it identifies those who Love God first, and have been given the capacity to love not only their neighbors, but their adversaries and enemies, --- they can be, ‘sons of their Father in heaven.’

In the ‘Beatitudes’ in Matthew 5, in these verses it says:
7.  Blessed are the merciful,
    For they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
    For they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
    For they shall be called sons of God.

To go back to the Canaanite woman, --- the disciples said, “Send her away,” --- but Jesus used each occasion to teach the disciples. --- After saying He had come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, ---  she still prevailed in asking, and Jesus responded by commending her for her faith, and He healed her daughter.
--- He did not have to rebuke the disciples for their prejudice, but rather revealed that the woman had more faith than they did.

It was always the case that when someone came to Jesus He responded to their needs. --- Even as He was choosing the disciples, this was written in Matthew 4:
23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people.
24 Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them.
25 Great multitudes followed Him—from Galilee, and from Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan.

Jesus became famous among the whole area, but He chose only Jews to be His Apostles, as the New Covenant of Salvation was to be preached by the Jews first.
--- God set aside the Old Covenant, Hebrews 8, --- and fashioned some new Jewish vessels to carry the Gospel, ‘Good News.’
Jesus said in another place, “You don’t put new wine in old wineskins.”

On another occasion they went through Samaria, and this happened, Luke 9:
51 Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem,
52 and sent messengers before His face. And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him.
53 But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem.
54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?”
55 But He turned and rebuked them and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of.
56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.”[g] And they went to another village.

--- Even at this time when Jesus was going up to Jerusalem to be arrested and crucified, --- the disciples still showed their prejudice towards the Samaritans.

However, after their conversion, and being filled with the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, Acts 2, --- John came to be called, ‘The Apostle of Love.’
And he wrote this later in 1 John 3:
1. “Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
2. Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
3. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.”


Placid

[soloman]

Hi Placid

- Your quote:
There are certain OT verses that seem to condone hatred and murder. --- The fact that the ungodly had to be destroyed to allow the righteous to succeed, tells us that God had to make choices and show preferences.

-My response:
I don't believe God make choices , it is we His creation that have to choose ,either righteousness or unrighteousness. But what is righteousness ?
I believe righteousness is whatever God have revealed in His Holy Revelations through all His Holy Prophets.

Isaiah 42:21
-21) It pleased the Lord for the sake of his righteousness to make his law great and glorious.
-- Through God's Law we become righteous.

Isaiah 42:24
-24) Who handed Jacob over to become loot, and Israel to the plunderers? Was it not the LORD, against whom we have sinned? For they would not follow his ways; they did not obey his law.
-- God is prepared to destroy the people He love , why ? Because they did not obey His Laws -- is it not.

Isaiah 48:18
-18) If only you had paid attention to my commands, your peace would have been like a river, your righteousness like the waves of the sea.
--Righteousness can only be achieved through upholding the Commands of God -- is it not ?

Christians are of the notion that God changed His Law with the coming of Jesus ,but this is not true .

Why listen to Paul or any of the Gospel writers interpretation of what Jesus  said and did when you can listen to the Master Himself.

Matthew 5 :17-18
-17) "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
-18)  I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

-- Jesus stressed that no part of God's written Law of the OT will pass away until Heaven and Earth disappear - How much clearer could He be.

-- Why would God put this particular verse in Jesus mouth ? Because God knew there would be people who would mis-interpret His teachings
   as abolishing God's Law and that some parts were no longer binding -- is it not ?.


-Your quote:
In the NT where God is CALLED the heavenly Father, and Jesus is CALLED the Son, there are verses like these from Matthew 5:
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

-My response:
Again as with the false idea that Jesus portrays God's love in the NT , Christians want to portray the above NT verses you quote as exclusive to
Jesus. I have to inform you this is not so. Before Jesus was conceived in Mary we are instructed in the OT of the above.

Exodus 23 : 4-5
-4) "If you come across your enemy's ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to take it back to him.
-5) If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help him with it.
-- Is this not a loving action to your enemy ?

Deuteronomy 23:-7
-7) Do not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. Do not abhor an Egyptian, because you lived as an alien in his country.
-- Is this not instruction to love your brother ?.


Proverbs 24:17
-17) Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when he stumbles, do not let your heart rejoice

Proverbs 25:21
-21) If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.

Leviticus 19:17
-17) "Do not nurse hatred in your heart for any of your relatives. Confront people directly so you will not be held guilty for their sin.

Jesus taught nothing new! He was quoting from the OT ,correcting what was taught by the  Pharisees.

As Jeremiah says "It is the lying pen of the scribes that change the Law"


All God's revelations through His Prophets will stand till the end of time - that is Judgment Day.

Soloman

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

Quote: I don't believe God make choices , it is we His creation that have to choose, either righteousness or unrighteousness. But what is righteousness ?
I believe righteousness is whatever God have revealed in His Holy Revelations through all His Holy Prophets.

Response: --- I will not disagree with you that righteousness in the OT involved keeping  the law, --- but you had to keep the whole law, which even they failed to do. --- but I will show you the contrast from the NT. --- Titus 3:
5. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration (a New Birth) and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6. whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


Quote: --Righteousness can only be achieved through upholding the Commands of God -- is it not ?
Christians are of the notion that God changed His Law with the coming of Jesus ,but this is not true .

Response: --- The verses from Isaiah only show that the people who were given the law, did not keep it, and they became the plunder of the nations around,
Since the Old Covenant of the Law was failing, --- God gave the promise of the New Covenant which would fulfill the old one, --- through the power of God’s Holy Spirit. --- Jeremiah was the Prophet in Israel when Israel fell to Nebuchadnezzar about 600 BC, and they were carried off to Babylon. --- It was during that time that God gave him this prophecy in Jeremiah 31:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

--- And this was fulfilled in the coming of Jesus, ---- and the empowering came on the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit filled their minds and hearts with wisdom and power to preach the Message of the New Covenant

--- The fulfillment is recorded in Hebrews 8:
7. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Quote: As Jeremiah says "It is the lying pen of the scribes that change the Law"

Response: --- This is from the same timeframe as the New Covenant when Jeremiah was warning them of the soon coming destruction. Chapter 8:
“Even the stork in the heavens
Knows her appointed times;
And the turtledove, the swift, and the swallow
Observe the time of their coming.
But My people do not know the judgment of the Lord.
8 “How can you say, ‘We are wise,
And the law of the Lord is with us’?
Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.
9 The wise men are ashamed,
They are dismayed and taken.
Behold, they have rejected the word of the Lord;
So what wisdom do they have?

The Scribes were only the copiers of the Scriptures. If they were writing false statements and saying that was from the Scripture, that didn’t change the previously written Scripture. --- God’s word cannot be changed.


Placid

[omar111]

Once again Mathew corrupted a story of Bible. Mark wrote his gospel about four decades after Jesus  and Matthew about one or two decades after Mark. Mark was written a few decades prior to Matthew so Matthew changed the story. In it the woman call Jesus as messianic `Son of David` and Jesus says that he was sent for the lost sheep of Israel. In Mark 7:25 He responded to her like this: "Let the children first be fed, since it isn't good to take bread out of children's mouths and throw it to the dogs! [kynaria]"
The early church under James was still trying to convert Jews only and not gentiles. So they quoted a story to please them. But what is interesting is the tone in the contradictory passages. Mark is trying to keep the insult mild; maybe it is not even insulting in Mark. Mark uses kynaria(puppies) not dog.This can also mean that Jesus was calling the children as playful puppies or playing with puppies.
    But Mathews changed all this. Jesus is now messiah and gentiles dog.
Christian answer that Jesus was testing the woman. But testing what? That she can grovel at his feet or not? So Jesus would not cure a gentile woman? He rewarded her for a witty saying, like a master reward a dog for a new trick. This is not the image of a loving savior of mankind,Christians try to portray. If the woman failed the test, would Jesus refuse to heal a human? Jesus considered Gentiles impure like Dogs. But when the policy of Church was changed toward converting gentiles, Paul called Jews as dogs because they were circumcised. (Phil 3:2)
Matt. 10:5 "Go not into the way of the Gentiles"
John 4:22 "Salvation is of the Jews"

[soloman]

Hi Placid

-Your quote:
I will not disagree with you that righteousness in the OT involved keeping the law, --- but you had to keep the whole law, which even they failed to do.

-My response:
I will also not disagree with you that the Pharisees and Scribes did not keep the whole Law - hence the continual punishment and refinement they
had to undergo for their disobedience.
The Israelites were a stubborn nation, continually breaking the Law - The coming of Jesus was a point in time that ended their reign as Gods chosen people.
This was the purpose of Jesus - He made miraculous signs among them , but because of their sins God had made them oblivious to the advent of
the Messiah which intern will be held against them on the return of Jesus and the King in the line of David.

The Christians on the one hand are closer to the truth than these stubborn Jews - For you recognized the Messiah but unfortunately have mistaken
Jesus (Messiah) the High Priest for the King to come ,which is also a misunderstanding of these stubborn Jews - for if you ask a Jew about Jesus,
he could easily give you many reasons in the OT why Jesus could not be the King in the line of David - so, because Jesus the Messiah did not fullfil
the criteria of the promised King these stubborn Jews dismissed Him as the Messiah.

-- I am aware that you probably disagree with most of what I say and in no way do I intend to offend you in your belief.


-Your quote:
but I will show you the contrast from the NT. --- Titus 3:
5. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration (a New Birth) and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6. whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

-My response:
This is the problem with Christians "they are lazy" ,they don't want to take the hard yards to attain God's mercy , they just bank on God's grace
irrespective of God's laws.

I will contrast the verses in James, to what you have quoted from Titus- James is in harmony with the OT.

James 2 : 17
-17)n the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
-20)You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
-21)Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
-22)You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

--James concludes that faith and action have to work together - action in this case is observing the Law which is an integral part of righteousness.
   Is it not ?

Isaiah 51:7
-7) "Hear me, you who know what is right, you people who have my law in your hearts: Do not fear the reproach of men or be terrified by their insults.
-- The Hebrew word   for Law is תּוֹרָה (torah) and in the context of the above verse - who have my torah in your hearts.


-Your quote:
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

-My response:
To suggest that God's covenant is at -fault because people are unrighteous is blasphemy -- Don't you think ?

Yes , their will be a renewed covenant - not because the old one was faulty but because God will once and for all establish His Glory through out
the earth without question with His  promised King through the line of David - The renewed covenant will be established through Him -- it certainly
could not have been Jesus because many events that is supposed to take place after the advent of the promised King have not transpired yet.


Isaiah 48:11
-11)For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another.

-- It is for  God's own sake , for Himself that He will make this new covenant - through the line of David - Jesse - Judah - Abraham - Noah - Adam,
   that line is still present today , hidden away in the Palm of His hand ,through which He will bring forth his Glory .

-- On that Day there will be no arguments - everyone will see the Glory God in plain sight - that Day is yet to come -- Is it not ?

Soloman

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

Quote: For you recognized the Messiah but unfortunately have mistaken
Jesus (Messiah) the High Priest for the King to come

Response: --- It is whether or not you believe what the Scripture says.
In the genealogy it identifies Jesus in Matthew 1:
6 and Jesse was the father of King David. David was the father of Solomon,

16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ
--- Joseph was descended from Solomon and was the foster father of Jesus. Because the lineage went through the father, Jesus was registered in the line of King David.

In the genealogy in Luke it recognizes Jesus as the Son of Mary, Luke 3:
23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli,
31. The son of Nathan, the son of David,

Joseph was descended from Solomon, the son of King David.
Mary was descended from Nathan, another son of King David.
--- Had Jesus been revealed as illegitimate among the Jews there would have been no end of scandal, --- but if you notice, it is not mentioned through the Gospels.
--- However, this is perhaps what is alluded to in Surah 4:156.

Again in Matthew 2 it identifies Jesus this way:
1. Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem,
2. saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”
9 When they heard the king, they departed; and behold, the star which they had seen in the East went before them, till it came and stood over where the young Child was.

10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceedingly great joy.
11 And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

He was called ‘The Son of David,’ different times as well as ‘the King of the Jews. --- Matthew 27:37. And they put up over His head the accusation written against Him:      THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

It was the angel Gabriel that announced this to Mary in Luke 1:
30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

--- When Jesus returns He will take up His position as King.
Jesus came first as a Servant of God, but will come again as KING OFKINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, --- Revelation 19:11-16.


Quote: This is the problem with Christians "they are lazy" ,they don't want to take the hard yards to attain God's mercy , they just bank on God's grace
irrespective of God's laws.
I will contrast the verses in James, to what you have quoted from Titus- James is in harmony with the OT.

Response: --- I should have added one more verse to Titus 3:
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.
--- Good works always follows faith. --- Good works alone are just ‘good works.’

James verifies that Abraham was already a believer, and proved it by his actions.
Faith without works is dead, or dormant. --- James asks, ‘How do you show faith without action?

Here is an example of ‘faith by works’ in Mark 2:
1. And again He entered Capernaum after some days, and it was heard that He was in the house.
2 Immediately many gathered together, so that there was no longer room to receive them, not even near the door. And He preached the word to them.
3 Then they came to Him, bringing a paralytic who was carried by four men.
4 And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where He was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying.
5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”
--- Notice these words, “WHEN HE SAW THEIR FAITH.”


Placid

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

Quote from Post 64:
To suggest that God's covenant is at -fault because people are unrighteous is blasphemy -- Don't you think ?

Response: --- It was God that revealed this prophecy in Jeremiah 31:31-34, at the time when Israel was being carried away into captivity, and this revelation was the promise and hope of the future (that the Jews still had a future), and that they would be restored as a nation to fulfill the rest of God’s promises.

God’s plan was perfect, but the people chose to become corrupt. --- And after the New Covenant was in place, the writer of the Hebrews recorded the same prophecy, ch 8, and explained how it was fulfilled with the coming of Jesus Christ.

It was about the same scenario as the failure of Adam and Eve to keep God’s perfect plan. --- The difference was that with Adam and Eve, the covenant was made with those who were created perfect, but who had the ability to choose.
The covenant of the Law was made with the ‘already sinful’ people who were stubborn and rebellious, and also had the ability to choose.
--- How many times did God have to bail them out?

God’s New Covenant is also a perfect ‘Plan of Salvation,’ --- those who want it can have it. --- Jesus said in John 5:
24. “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”
So the New Covenant is again about choice, and it is on a, “Whosoever will” basis.


--- I like it when you quote from Isaiah, as in this verse in 48:
11. For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another.

--- I am going to build around this verse to show what the context says:
First, --- It is the Lord of hosts who is speaking, v2, “And shall lean on the God of Israel, the Lord of hosts is His name.
V3, “I have declared the former things from the beginning.” --- (So the Lord of hosts was there from the beginning.)  
V11, “How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another.”

12. “Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
13. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;

Pay close attention to this verse. --- The Lord of hosts is still speaking.
16. “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”

--- Notice this? --- It identifies that there are ‘Three’ Personages mentioned:
The Lord God, --- and His Spirit, --- and the Speaker, the Lord of hosts.

It mentions ‘Three’ Personages in heaven in 1 John 5:
7. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one

--- So here it says, “The Lord God, (the Father), --- and His (Holy) Spirit, --- have sent Me, (the Lord of hosts.)

If we look at what the Lord of hosts said about Himself, we see this:
V2,  He is ‘the God of Israel, the Lord of hosts.’
V3. ‘Declared from the beginning,’ so He was there in the beginning.
V11. ‘Will not give His glory to another.’
V12, ‘I am He, --- I am the First and I am the Last.
V13, ‘He laid out the foundation of the earth and stretched out the heavens.
V 16, ‘From the beginning, I was there.’
V16, ‘Now the Lord God and His Spirit have sent Me.’ (The Lord of hosts.)

In 1 John 5:7 it says the ‘Three’ in harmony in heaven are  ‘the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit.
And the same Apostle John wrote this in the Gospel of John, 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

So, this is interesting.
(More later)


Placid

[soloman]

Hi Placid

- Your quote:
It is whether or not you believe what the Scripture says.

- My response:
Well, if the Scripture you refer to is the NT then I have to say it is a jumble of mixed-up theories , all designed to mislead people from the truth
of Jesus.
This NT have elements of truth but it is flawed with conjecture and theories based on the misgivings of the famous false prophet , Saul - Paul.  
Paul confessed that he was born for this task, hence the Pauline theories.

It does not take a genius to see that Paul preached a different doctrine than Jesus, e.g

--) 2 Corinthians 8 : 21
  -21)for we aim at what is honorable not only in the Lord's sight but also in the sight of men.

--) Romans 12 : 17
  -17) Repay no one evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all men.

--) Romans 14 : 18
  -18) he who thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.

--) 1 Corinthians 10 : 33
  -33) just as I try to please all men in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.

-- It can easily be deduced from Paul's comments that whatever he does must be approved by Men.

-- Lets see what the Master Jesus say ;
-- Luke 16 : 15
  -15) But he said to them, You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts; for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

-- It is abundantly evident from the above verse that Jesus condemns the Pauline theory that your actions must be approved by men - is it not ?

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 : 31
  -31) I protest, brethren, by my pride in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day!

The Master Jesus says in John 11 : 26
  -26) and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die.  

-- Who do you believe ? Jesus or Paul - I suppose the Christian will say ,both !

Paul says in Romans 7 : 10
  -10) the very commandment which promised life proved to be death to me.  

The Master Jesus says in Matthew 19 : 17
  -17)And he said to him, Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.

To Paul the the Commandments brought death and to the Master Jesus the Commandments brought Life.

The above quotations are only a few examples of the many differences between Paul and the Master Jesus.

The Problem Paul faced was,that he was not privileged to the things Jesus did and he was not aware of Jesus teachings to His Apostles , this
would account for all the misunderstandings between the Apostles and Paul.

The NT Scripture is a collections of sayings after the fact ,whereas God's revelations were always revealed before the fact -- is it not ?

Much have been said about the genealogy of Jesus - the evidences you give are weak and questionable but I suppose for the die - hard
Christian it does not matter how flimsy the foundations are - as long as Jesus can be tied to David -- is it not ?

Soloman

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

Quote from Post 67:
It can easily be deduced from Paul's comments that whatever he does must be approved by Men.
-- Lets see what the Master Jesus say ;
-- Luke 16 : 15
-15) But he said to them, You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts; for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.


Response: --- These ‘one liners’ don’t take anything away from Paul.
After first putting Faith in God, and following Jesus, which means being guided by the Holy Spirit, we are to be just that, approved of men in what we do, --- as 'reflectors' of God's goodness.

Jesus called Paul, --- so it is not important what one might say against him. God used him as the Missionary and Apostle to the Gentiles. If you notice in Revelation 1, John was instructed to write letters to 7 Churches in Asia Minor and most of them were Churches that Paul had started.

--- So if you are speaking against the Scriptures on account of Paul, you are criticizing Jesus, and criticizing God’s word, --- and included is your assessment of the Quran as not being the revelations of God either.

Since God revealed the former Scriptures and Gabriel confirmed them in the Quran, --- and they were available in written form for over 200 years before Muhammad , and there have been no changes in the NT or the Pauline letters since then, --- but they, as well as the Gospels have been God’s message to mankind. --- Whosoever will believe it.  

Gabriel approved the former Scriptures, and there is only one criticism of one Church in the Quran, of a problem that developed between the time the NT was completed and distributed in various languages, --- and the time of the Quran.

When you make a comparison to Luke 16:15 where Jesus criticized the Pharisees you have to look at the context of this verse:
14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.
15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
16 “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

Notice, --- that ‘God Knew their hearts,’ --- that they were looking for an opportunity to kill Jesus.
But NOTICE SOMETHING ELSE IN THE NEXT VERSE:
16. “THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS WERE UNTIL JOHN (the Baptist).
SINCE THAT TIME THE KINGDOM OF GOD HAS BEEN PREACHED.”

--- Remember that Jesus said in Matthew 5:20 that “Unless your righteousness EXCEEDS that of the scribes and Pharisees you will by no case enter the kingdom of heaven.”  

--- Did you notice THAT? --- Jesus said the LAW AND THE PROPHETS ended with the preaching of John the Baptist, because the New Covenant started with Jesus.

Now let’s see what Jesus taught the disciples to be like in their dealings with men, which is also recorded in Matthew 5:
1 --- And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him.
2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn, For they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful, For they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,  For they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.
12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.
14 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.
15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

--- Really, your light can only shine if it is bright, and draws someone else to it in glorifying God and not glorifying one’s self.


Placid

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

Since you prefer the OT, --- I want to begin again from the verse you quoted from Isaiah 48:
11. “How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another.”

12. “Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
13. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;

Pay close attention to this verse. --- The Lord of hosts is still speaking.
16. “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”
--- Notice this? --- It identifies that there are ‘Three’ Personages mentioned:
The Lord God, --- and His Spirit, --- and the Speaker, the Lord of hosts.

It mentions ‘Three’ Personages in heaven in 1 John 5:
7. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one

--- So here in Isaiah it says, “The Lord God, (the Father), --- and His (Holy) Spirit, --- have sent Me, (the Lord of hosts.)

If we look at what the Lord of hosts said about Himself, we see this:
V2,  He is ‘the God of Israel, the Lord of hosts.’
V3. ‘Declared from the beginning,’ so He was there in the beginning.
V11. ‘Will not give His glory to another.’
V12, ‘I am He, --- I am the First and I am the Last.
V13, ‘He laid out the foundation of the earth and stretched out the heavens.
V16, ‘From the beginning, I was there.’
V16, ‘Now the Lord God and His Spirit have sent Me.’ (The Lord of hosts.)

In 1 John 5:7 it says the ‘Three’ in harmony in heaven are: ‘the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit.
And the same Apostle John wrote this in the Gospel of John, 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. --- (Here the Word is identified as the ‘Logos,’  or the ‘creative’ Word that was with God from the beginning, and through whom all things were made. .

Also, in the Book of Revelation, which was revealed to the same Apostle John, Jesus appears to him in His glorified body in Revelation 1:
9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,
11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”
12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire;
15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;
16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.”

--- So, the identification of the Word in John 1, and the identification of the Personage in Revelation 1, are the same as the Personage in Isaiah 48, who is there called ‘the Lord of hosts,’ --- are they not?
(More later.)


Placid

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

To continue:
So, the identification of the Word in John 1, and the identification of the Personage in Revelation 1, are the same as the Personage in Isaiah 48 who is there called ‘the Lord of hosts,’ --- are they not?

This is how Scripture verifies itself. --- The OT gives both the history and the prophecy, as is written here in Isaiah, --- and the fulfillment is found in the New Covenant.

History: --- the speaker, the Lord of hosts said, ‘I was there in the beginning,’

--- What do we know about the Lord of hosts?
There is an image given in Joshua, just before they were to cross the Jordan River to go into the Promised Land, in Joshua 5:
13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”
14 So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.”
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”
15 Then the Commander of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.

So Joshua recognized Him as being a Manifestation or Representative of God. This image of the ‘Commander of the Lord’s army’ would be with Joshua to strengthen and encourage him.

--- The title, the Lord of hosts is used from 1 Samuel to the end of Malachi, the last book of the OT, --- and is not mentioned in the NT.

I have said different times that God manifested Himself in the Personage of the Word (Logos), and I believe this was a Manifestation of the Word, --- as the Word (Logos) was there in the beginning, and the Word is there in the Gospel of John, and the Word is there in the Revelation, --- Then it was the Word (Logos) that was there in the beginning with God, and is there to the end, and therefore could say, "I am the First, and I am the Last," representing God.

However, the Manifestation of the Word through the OT was, the Lord of Hosts.

Prophecy:  --- Here in Isaiah 48 we could say that it was the Word speaking in v16, where it says this:
16. “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”

Then we can understand that the speaker was saying,
The Lord God and His Spirit have sent Me, --- the Word.

This is verified later so I will just write a bit at a time and ask you to try and understand these prophecies in Isaiah.

You may disagree with me and have many questions, but I will try to present what the Scripture says.


Placid

[placid]

To continue:

When we look at prophecy we have to realize that it is different from the history that was written in sequence.
If prophecy is written in different places by different servants of God, they are often interwoven, or certain promises preceding others in Scripture, are not necessarily to be first in fulfillment. --- For instance the Prophecies in Isaiah were written during his lifetime, from 740-680 BC, and this prophecy is dated about 712 BC.

The verse you quoted from Isaiah 48:
11. “How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another.”
--- God is responding to this by taking action to bring the people back to Himself and restore His Glory as the God of Creation, to Whom only glory belongs.

Then verse 16 reveals God’s plan in these words:
16. “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”

It is written in the immediate past – or present tense.
It is not written in the future tense, though it would not happen for over 700 years.

Remember you quoted a verse from Jeremiah:
As Jeremiah says "It is the lying pen of the scribes that change the Law"

The scribes and priests were false teachers, unfaithful to God and disobedient to the Law, --- and the Jews continued to deteriorate as a nation for the next hundred years.

--- The Prophet Jeremiah, who followed Isaiah, lived from 627-580.  And he prophesied both the destruction and the restoration, shortly before the time of their captivity into Babylon, about 600 BC. --- He confirms the failure of the Jews, --- and he gave them the promise of hope, --- that Israel would be restored.

This is part of the same prophecy. --- Chapters 30-31 are all about the restoration It begins this way in chapter 30:
1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,
2 “Thus speaks the Lord God of Israel, saying: ‘Write in a book for yourself all the words that I have spoken to you.
3 For behold, the days are coming,’ says the Lord, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the Lord. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’”

--- And it is in this prophecy that he gives the pattern of the New Covenant, 31:
31. “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.


--- But let’s go back to Isaiah 48 and continue with the next verses:
17. Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the Lord your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
--- (Here it includes the name ‘Redeemer,’ --- another identification of the Lord of hosts, who is still speaking.)

--- And He goes on to say:
18. Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.
--- (Here He is speaking of Israel’s disobedience and loss of position as God’s people.)

19. Your descendants also would have been like the sand,
And the offspring of your body like the grains of sand;

--- Consider this promise given to Abraham, ‘that his descendants would be like the stars and like the sand, --- too numerous to count,’ --- has been removed from the Jews, the Children of Israel.
Because of their disobedience to the law, they were set aside, and have not become the faithful and numerous people that God planned for them.

And Jeremiah predicted this in conjunction with the prophecy in Isaiah, that the first covenant would be ‘replaced’ by a New Covenant.--- But that would not happen for some 600 years.
--- So the New Covenant and the promised Redeemer would coincide.


Placid

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

To continue:
Again in prophesy there is the proof of Scripture.
God speaks directly, or through someone to make a prediction, like He did with Prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah, --- and when the prediction comes to pass, this is the evidence that God does know all things, and can predict them, and then bring them to pass.
This should be clear evidence to everyone that God is All-Knowing.

However, there are other mysteries that are revealed to believers that add extra assurance that God is God.

This is very interesting and beyond our understanding.

There are sixty six Books in the Bible, --- 39 in the OT, and 27 in the NT
There are sixty six chapters in the Book of Isaiah.

While there is much of both history and prophecy in the first 39 chapters, they close with the error of King Hezekiah in showing all of his treasures to men who came from Babylon. --- Then Isaiah predicted this in 39:
4. So Hezekiah answered, “They have seen all that is in my house; there is nothing among my treasures that I have not shown them.”
5 Then Isaiah said to Hezekiah, “Hear the word of the Lord of hosts:
6 ‘Behold, the days are coming when all that is in your house, and what your fathers have accumulated until this day, shall be carried to Babylon; nothing shall be left,’ says the Lord.
7 ‘And they shall take away some of your sons who will descend from you, whom you will beget; and they shall be eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon.’”
--- So chapter 39 ends with the prediction of loss and defeat. (Like the OT.)

Chapter 40 begins with these words:
1“Comfort, yes, comfort My people!”
Says your God.
2 “Speak comfort to Jerusalem, and cry out to her,
That her warfare is ended,
That her iniquity is pardoned;
For she has received from the Lord’s hand
Double for all her sins.”
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
“Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make straight in the desert[a]
A highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be exalted
And every mountain and hill brought low;
The crooked places shall be made straight
And the rough places smooth;
5 The glory of the Lord shall be revealed,
And all flesh shall see it together;
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

--- And in Book 40, Matthew, the first Book of the NT, there is the announcement of the ‘Comfort for God’s people’ --- and ‘coming to Jerusalem.’

“The voice of one crying in the wilderness,’ --- was fulfilled in John the Babtist. Matthew 3:
1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea,
2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”
3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying:
“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.’”

--- The New Message to ‘Comfort the people,’ begins with the preaching of John the Baptist, who was the forerunner and announcer of the coming of the Gospel of Salvation through Jesus, the Christ.


Placid

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

To continue from the prophecy of Isaiah, related to the verse in 48:
11. “How can I let myself be defamed?

If we continue with the comparison of the 66 chapters of Isaiah to the 66 Books of the Bible we have to marvel at how God foresaw this.
Isaiah prophesied and wrote his book some 700 years before the coming of John the Baptist and Jesus. --- He wrote 39 chapters of history and prophecy, ending in doom and gloom for Israel, and the prophecy that they would be taken captive to Babylon.
--- And what does the corresponding 39th Book say about the spiritual state of Israel?

The 39th Book is Malachi, the last Book of the OT.
--- This again is the Lord of hosts speaking in Malachi 1:
6. “A son honors his father, And a servant his master.
If then I am the Father, Where is My honor?
And if I am a Master, Where is My reverence?
Says the Lord of hosts To you priests who despise My name.
Yet you say, ‘In what way have we despised Your name?’
7 “You offer defiled food on My altar, But say,
‘In what way have we defiled You?’
By saying, ‘The table of the Lord is contemptible.’
8 And when you offer the blind as a sacrifice,
Is it not evil? And when you offer the lame and sick, Is it not evil?
Offer it then to your governor! Would he be pleased with you?
Would he accept you favorably?” Says the Lord of hosts.
10. I have no pleasure in you,” Says the Lord of hosts,
“Nor will I accept an offering from your hands.
11 For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down,
My name shall be great among the Gentiles;
In every place incense shall be offered to My name,
And a pure offering;
For My name shall be great among the nations,” Says the Lord of hosts.
12 “But you profane it, In that you say,
‘The table of the Lord[b] is defiled;
And its fruit, its food, is contemptible.’
13 You also say, ‘Oh, what a weariness!’
And you sneer at it,” Says the Lord of hosts.
“And you bring the stolen, the lame, and the sick;
Thus you bring an offering!
Should I accept this from your hand?” Says the Lord.

--- So the action of the priesthood was totally defiled.

However, something to bear in mind is that about 6oo BC, the people were taken into captivity in Babylon, and this lasted for 70 years.
--- Through the miracles of Daniel and the teaching of the faithful Jews who were taken captive, they trusted God again, --- and the Persian King Cyrus let them go back to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple and their homeland.

Cyrus restored all of the treasures that Nebuchadnezzar had taken and provided building material.
--- This is written in the Book of Ezra, who along with Zerubbabel and Nehemiah led the return of the captives to Israel in two phases
--- (Ezra was considered as a type of Messiah because he brought the people out of captivity, and there is a mention of this in Surah 9:30. “And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God.”)

The Jews were restored to Israel, they rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem and repaired the Temple, --- but here again in Malachi, some 150 years later, they had deteriorated again to the point that the Old Covenant with Israel was ineffective in leading people to God.

--- They were going through the motions of keeping the law, like putting out ‘show bread’ and food, but it would become spoiled and contemptible to the Lord.
--- They still sacrificed, but rather than offering the best to God they gave the sick, the lame, or the stolen. --- Because they had lost their faith they said, “What a weariness,” ---(to serve the Lord) --- “And sneered at it.”

There is too much to put in a long post, so will add more later.


Placid

[placid]

To continue from the prophecy of Isaiah, related to the verse in 48:
11. “How can I let myself be defamed?

To continue in Malachi 2:
1 “And now, O priests, this commandment is for you.
2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take it to heart,
To give glory to My name,” Says the Lord of hosts,
“I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings.
Yes, I have cursed them already, Because you do not take it to heart.
3 “Behold, I will rebuke your descendants And spread refuse on your faces,
The refuse of your solemn feasts; And one will take you away with it.

4 Then you shall know that I have sent this commandment to you,
That My covenant with Levi may continue,” Says the Lord of hosts.
5 “My covenant was with him, one of life and peace,
And I gave them to him that he might fear Me;
So he feared Me And was reverent before My name.
6 The law of truth was in his mouth, And injustice was not found on his lips.
He walked with Me in peace and equity, And turned many away from iniquity.

7 “For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge,
And people should seek the law from his mouth;
For he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.
8 But you have departed from the way; You have caused many to stumble at the law.
You have corrupted the covenant of Levi,” Says the Lord of hosts.
9 “Therefore I also have made you contemptible and base Before all the people,
Because you have not kept My ways But have shown partiality in the law.”

--- (Do you see now why the whole corrupt priesthood was set aside?)

It goes on to mention their infidelity in relationships, and in marriage:
10. Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us?
Why do we deal treacherously with one another By profaning the covenant of the fathers?
11 Judah has dealt treacherously,
And an abomination has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem,
For Judah has profaned The Lord’s holy institution which He loves:
He has married the daughter of a foreign god.
12 May the Lord cut off from the tents of Jacob The man who does this, being awake and aware,
Yet who brings an offering to the Lord of hosts!
--- (As though bringing an offering covers their iniquity from which they haven’t repented.)

13. And this is the second thing you do: You cover the altar of the Lord with tears,
With weeping and crying; So He does not regard the offering anymore,
Nor receive it with goodwill from your hands.
14 Yet you say, “For what reason?” Because the Lord has been witness
Between you and the wife of your youth, With whom you have dealt treacherously;
Yet she is your companion And your wife by covenant.
15 But did He not make them one, Having a remnant of the Spirit? And why one?
He seeks godly offspring. Therefore take heed to your spirit,
And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.

17. You have wearied the Lord with your words; Yet you say,
“In what way have we wearied Him?” In that you say,
“Everyone who does evil Is good in the sight of the Lord,
And He delights in them.”
--- (This is the false hope of people today who believe they are following God, but have no relationship with Him.)

3:8. “Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say,
‘In what way have we robbed You?’ In tithes and offerings.
9 You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation.
10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, That there may be food in My house,
And try Me now in this,” Says the Lord of hosts,
“If I will not open for you the windows of heaven And pour out for you such blessing
That there will not be room enough to receive it.

13. “Your words have been harsh against Me,” Says the Lord,
“Yet you say, ‘What have we spoken against You?’
14 You have said, ‘It is useless to serve God;
What profit is it that we have kept His ordinance,
And that we have walked as mourners Before the Lord of hosts?
15 So now we call the proud blessed, For those who do wickedness are raised up;
They even tempt God and go free.’”

--- So this was why the Old Covenant was set aside with its laws, --- that were meant to bring them to righteousness and make them a prosperous and honorable nation before the Lord, --- but they failed.
--- So God, in due time, brought in the New Covenant.


Placid

[placid]

To continue in Malachi:
--- (In spite of the wickedness of the priesthood there was a remnant of true believers.
--- So the righteous from that generation would receive their reward.)

3:16.Then those who feared the Lord spoke to one another,
And the Lord listened and heard them;
So a book of remembrance was written before Him
For those who fear the Lord And who meditate on His name.
17 “They shall be Mine,” says the Lord of hosts,
“On the day that I make them My jewels.
And I will spare them As a man spares his own son who serves him.”
18 Then you shall again discern Between the righteous and the wicked,
Between one who serves God And one who does not serve Him.

(Then there is the prophecy of the Day of Judgment on the wicked of Israel, which some would place in the future, but it was really fulfilled shortly after this time.)

4:1. “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the Lord of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch.

--- (There would be a burning and a cleansing among the people that would leave them “neither root, nor branch.”)

--- The hierarchy of the Pharisees continued after John the Baptist came preaching repentance and baptism for the remission of sins. Matthew 3:
1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea,
2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”
3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying:
“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.’” (Isaiah 40:3)
4 Now John himself was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him
6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,
9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

--- (Here again ‘the ax is laid to the root of the trees.’ --- It speaks of the judgment of God on the wicked, --- but the whole “growth” would be removed.  
The great pride and heritage of the Jews was the Temple. This was where all the records were kept as well as all their treasures. The Temple was the great house of God and all of the family ‘trees’ were recorded and preserved.

--- But Jesus made a prediction about the Temple in Matthew 24:
1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the Temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

--- Forty years later, in AD 70, the Romans destroyed the Temple, and burned it with fire, destroying all of the records kept in Jerusalem.
Tradition says that the literal prophecy of ‘not one stone being left here upon another,’ was fulfilled, because the inside walls were overlaid with a thin layer of Gold which melted and ran down in the cracks between the stones, so the soldiers used their horses to separate the stones to retrieve the gold.

--- With all the records being destroyed, they could no longer trace their ‘roots,’ so their family ‘tree’ was cut down. --- And their ‘branch’ was destroyed as well,  ---so their lineage had to start over with their own generation.

However, with the New Covenant that God was introducing, there was a new ‘BRANCH’ to identify with. It is first mentioned in Isaiah 11:
There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.
2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him,
The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The Spirit of counsel and might,
The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.

The Prophecies of Isaiah are very important because David was the son of Jesse, and it was through this line that the new BRANCH would come.


Placid