76 replies to this topic

[Christianlady]

Haydar Husayn, on 26 May 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

Matthew 15 (NIV)

²¹ Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.  ²² A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
²³ Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
²⁴ He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
²⁵ The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
²⁶ He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
²⁷ “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
²⁸ Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.


Charming.

Hello Haydar Husayn,

Just like it is possible that you read a passage in the Quran and learn a lesson important to you from reading it, so I, a Christian Gentile lady, read this passage and learn a very important lesson!

Sad to say, just like how it is possible that a Non Muslim reads a passage in the Quran and does not understand it, so I have to say that you, a Muslim, obviously do not understand this passage.

So, below is a summary of what I personally learn from this passage.

First of all, i relate to the Canaanite woman. Why? I am a Gentile. She was too.

Secondly, I came to Jesus in faith, recognizing him as Lord (Master). She did too.

Ok, so let's get down to what you think is so "charming" (sarcasm?)

1. Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, the offspring who God promised King David would be on David's throne forever (2 Samuel 7, 1 Chronicles 17, Psalm 2, Psalm 89) He is therefore a Jewish man (descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are nowadays called Jews) and was sent obviously to the lost sheep of Israel - the descendants of Israel (Jacob). Jesus stated the truth.

2. Some people who obviously do not understand or treasure what Jesus said and did seem to think that Jesus was insulting the Canaanite woman when he said, "“It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” This statement is true, with doble sentido... double meaning. It is true that it's not right to take bread of children and give it to the dogs.  Feeding children are the priority and deserve nice people food. Dogs need to eat too, and it is good to give them food that they like which would not be good for children. So literally, this statement is true. In the allegorical meaning, Jesus is telling the truth as well that he was sent to the children of Israel, and their "bread" includes the miracles God is doing for them through Jesus. Jesus did not go to Greece or Rome or anywhere in the Gentile world (with the exception of going to teach in Samaria, which was Jewish as well as Gentile) in order to heal people. So, in both meanings, Jesus' statement is true.

3. Now, this Canaanite lady could have taken it as an insult (as some people today do) and have just rushed away in anger. However, this lady is very intelligent and witty. Her reply proves she has those qualities, and also proves a more important quality... that she is humble. Now, it is possible that she had not always been humble. It is very possible that she struggled with pride. Many intelligent and witty men and women do struggle with pride. However, she answered with an incredibly intelligent, witty, and humble reply! She did not get offended. She did not insult Jesus. She took his words, digested them, and then revealed the beauty and faith in her heart!

4. I personally believe that Jesus was both testing her and teaching important lessons to future generations, knowing that people would read about her somday. I believe he tested her faith and her humility, knowing already that she would pass the test with flying colors!

5. The important lessons I get out of this conversation are the following:
- Jesus is indeed the Lord (Master), King of on the throne of King David forever - of the children of Israel.
- Jesus' miracles were done mainly among the Jewish people, not to all of the Gentiles surrounding them.
- Jesus tests the faith of people, knowing already how they will react to the tests.
- Jesus appreciates humility, intelligence, and reverence to him.
- I need to make sure to be humble and to use the gifts God has given me for God's glory.
- When tested, I want to pass with flying colors as well, by God's amazing grace!
- Jesus loves all people, and he healed this lady's daughter while at the same time, praising and encouraging her faith! I have personally experieced God saving me through Jesus, and am glad to have faith in him!

So, as a Christian lady, this is what I learn from this passage. People of other beliefs can say "charming" all they want and maybe do not understand the important lessons I personally have learned, but as for me, I praise God for the lessons I learn from what Jesus did and said!!!

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady, 26 May 2012 - 11:45 AM.

[Haydar Husayn]

As a Christian Gentile, you have little choice but to try to put a positive spin on it, but the fact of the matter is he compared her to a dog, and clearly implied that Gentiles were inferior to Jews.

[Christianlady]

Haydar Husayn, on 26 May 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

As a Christian Gentile, you have little choice but to try to put a positive spin on it, but the fact of the matter is he compared her to a dog, and clearly implied that Gentiles were inferior to Jews.

Hello Haydar Husayn,

If Jesus had said to her "You are a dog..." then I would agree with you. However, Jesus merely stated 2 truthful statements, the one about not giving the children's bread to dogs having a double meaning. It was not intended as an insult, but as a test. The woman obviously understood and answered his statement with intelligence, wit, humility, and faith.

You are of course free to believe what you like. However, I know without a doubt that Jesus does not consider Gentiles to be inferior to Jewish people, and that Jesus does not consider women to be inferior to men. He called her "Woman" because that is what/who she is. (By the way, he called his mother Mary "woman" too) - John 2 and John 19:26) Being a woman is not a bad thing, but is a wonderful and beautiful human being that God created.

Back to the Canannite woman, Jesus did not call her "a dog", but rather, after she answered his true statements in a humble and intelligent way filled faith, he praised her faith and answered her request.

if that does not teach you the lessons I have learned by God's grace, that is obviously between you and God.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady, 26 May 2012 - 12:32 PM.

[Haydar Husayn]

Christianlady, is the Old Testament the word of God? And if so, then doesn't that mean Jesus would have to agree with anything found therein?

[Christianlady]

Haydar Husayn, on 26 May 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Christianlady, is the Old Testament the word of God?

Hello Haydar Husayn,

Yep. The Tanakh was the only written Word of God that the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel) had. Jesus read the Tanakh and quoted extensively from the Tanakh. Jesus said the following:

Matthew 5 - http://www.biblegate... 5&version=TNIV
(I boldened some.)

"¹⁷“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.  ¹⁸ Truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.  ¹⁹ Anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ²⁰ For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

The Law and the Prophets are written in the Tanakh.

Quote

And if so, then doesn't that mean Jesus would have to agree with anything found therein?

Jesus did not disagree with the Tanakh. He did however go deeper into the whys and the hows of the Law.

For example, in the following teaching accounted in Mattew, Jesus quoted the following commands, and went deeper into the whys and how. He did not disagree with the commands, but he did show how they were more than just surface requirements... that they are a matter of the heart, of having a pure heart for God. I boldened some below.

Matthew 5:21-22
“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,^[Exodus 20:13^] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister^[Some manuscripts brother or sister without cause^] will be subject to judgment."

As one can see, Jesus is not saying that it is ok to murder now. No! He agrees with the command of not murdering and actually goes deeper... to a root cause of murder for many people - anger, (which many times leads to hatred.)

Matthew 5:27-28
"“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’^[Exodus 20:14^] But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Jesus is not saying ok it's ok to commit adultery now. No way! Jesus totally agrees with this command and goes deeper to the matter of the heart, to the problem that causes adultery - lust.

Matthew 5:31-32
“It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’^[Deut. 24:1^]  32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

The above has been a hard one for me to understand personally. I am divorced. and for awhile, I thought that i couldn't marry again, because I want to obey Jesus. However, from what I understand through God's grace and talking with a knowledgeable Messianic Jewish scholar who knows Hebrew, Jewish culture, and the Greek language, this command concerning a certificate of divorce is indeed in the Law that God gave to Moses, and that sadly, many Jewish men would treat their wives as inferior beings and would consider them property in a way. How Jesus addresses this is to warn men to not treat lightly their commitment before God with their wife, and to greatly discourage divorce.

By God's grace, I just recently got married again - September of last year, to a wonderful man who loves God very much and loves me! I prayed a lot about this though before, and there are Christians who do believe that it is wrong for a person who has been divorced to marry again. I understand why they think so, but I do believe that here, Jesus is addressing a very difficult problem for the Jewish ladies. Jewish ladies at that time did not have the right to divorce... it was mainly a man's decision. So, Jesus was addressing men about marriage and divorce, and showing how marriage is a sacred covenant between 2 people who God made into one flesh (See Matthew 19:1-12 and Genesis 1 and 2)

Matthew 5:33-36
“Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.  ³⁶ And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.^[Or from evil^]"

Here Jesus is not saying to break your oath. He's going deeper, and basically teaching just to not even make an oath at all! The reason is because many people make oaths and can't or don't fulfill them.

Matthew 5:38-42

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’^[Exodus 21:24; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21^] But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

Here, it does seem that Jesus does not agree. However, he is not saying that the Tanakh is wrong. He is actually giving a new order, which is hard to do! I am a very independent and reactionary person naturally, with a hot and fast temper. However, Jesus' teaching forces me to not treat other people badly if they treat me badly. For example, if someone slapped me, my first natural reaction would be to want to slap that person back. However, as a Christian, I want to obey Jesus! So, if someone slaps me, I need to pray, asking God for help, and "turn to them the other cheek also"  This is very hard to do, but the reason why Jesus teaches this is because hurting a person back does not help bring peace and is not loving. Jesus commands people to love God and to love others, which are the two greatest commandments (and both those commandments are in the Tanakh as well.)

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighborLev. 19:18^] and hate your enemy.’  ⁴⁴ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Jesus agrees with the Tanakh to love one's neighbor. However, it does seem like he is disagreeing about hating one's enemy. However, if a person hates, the person/people who that person hates does automatically become that person's enemy, whether publicly or subconsciously. Sad to say, many people hate their neighbors, considerig them their enemies. Just think about what would happen if instead of hating the Palestinians, if all the Jewish people in Israel (and there are Jewish people  who love Arab people) loved their neighbors, what would happen? That would be awesome!!! If you love someone, even if they hate you, you will not treat them badly.

Here are what Jesus said are the two most important commandments.   Please note that he quotes from the Tanakh, the written Word of God.

Mark 12 - http://www.biblegate...12&version=TNIV
(I boldened some.)

"²⁸ One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
²⁹ “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.^[Or The Lord our God is one Lord^{] 30} Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’^[Deut. 6:4,5^]  31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’^[Lev. 19:18^] There is no commandment greater than these.”
³² “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.  ³³ To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
³⁴ When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”  And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions."

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady, 26 May 2012 - 01:50 PM.

[Haydar Husayn]

A 'yes' would have sufficed. No offense Christianlady, and I really do mean this in the best possible way, but you need to be a bit more concise in your posts, because their length makes it very hard to maintain a discussion with you for long. I would be quite happy to discuss many issues related to Christianity and Islam with you, but I simply don't have the time or the energy. Your fellow Christian on this forum, placid, has a similar problem. Every so often everyone has to write a long post, but this should be kept to a minimum.


Now, with regard to the point I wanted to get at:

Quote

I know without a doubt that Jesus does not consider Gentiles to be inferior to Jewish people, and that Jesus does not consider women to be inferior to men.

Since I want to keep the posts relatively short, I will first deal with your claim that Jesus (ie God in your view) does not view women as inferior to men. This clearly contradicts many passages in the Old and New Testament.
Genesis 3 (NIV)

¹⁶ To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you. ”

Numbers 30 (NIV)

³ “When a young woman still living in her father’s household makes a vow to the Lord or obligates herself by a pledge ⁴ and her father hears about her vow or pledge but says nothing to her, then all her vows and every pledge by which she obligated herself will stand.  ⁵ But if her father forbids her when he hears about it, none of her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand; the Lord will release her because her father has forbidden her.
⁶ “If she marries after she makes a vow or after her lips utter a rash promise by which she obligates herself ⁷ and her husband hears about it but says nothing to her, then her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand. ⁸ But if her husband forbids her when he hears about it, he nullifies the vow that obligates her or the rash promise by which she obligates herself, and the Lord will release her.
⁹ “Any vow or obligation taken by a widow or divorced woman will be binding on her.
¹⁰ “If a woman living with her husband makes a vow or obligates herself by a pledge under oath ¹¹ and her husband hears about it but says nothing to her and does not forbid her, then all her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand. ¹² But if her husband nullifies them when he hears about them, then none of the vows or pledges that came from her lips will stand. Her husband has nullified them, and the Lord will release her. ¹³ Her husband may confirm or nullify any vow she makes or any sworn pledge to deny herself. ¹⁴ But if her husband says nothing to her about it from day to day, then he confirms all her vows or the pledges binding on her. He confirms them by saying nothing to her when he hears about them. ¹⁵ If, however, he nullifies them some time after he hears about them, then he must bear the consequences of her wrongdoing.”
¹⁶ These are the regulations the Lord gave Moses concerning relationships between a man and his wife, and between a father and his young daughter still living at home.
1 Corinthians 11 (NIV)

⁷ A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. ⁸ For man did not come from woman, but woman from man;  ⁹ neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.  ¹⁰ It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels.

1 Corinthians 14 (NIV)

³⁴ Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. ³⁵ If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Colossians 3 (NIV)

¹⁸ Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

Ephesians 5 (NIV)

¹¹ A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.  ¹² I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.  ¹³ For Adam was formed first, then Eve.  ¹⁴ And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.  ¹⁵ But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
²² Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.  ²³ For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. ²⁴ Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

[soloman]

Hi Christian Lady


-Your quote

First of all, i relate to the Canaanite woman. Why? I am a Gentile. She was too.

2. Some people who obviously do not understand or treasure what Jesus said and did ../../../public/style_emoticons/default/sad.png seem to think that Jesus was insulting the Canaanite woman when he said,

5. The important lessons I get out of this conversation are the following:
- Jesus is indeed the Lord (Master), King of on the throne of King David forever - of the children of Israel.
- Jesus' miracles were done mainly among the Jewish people, not to all of the Gentiles surrounding them.
- Jesus tests the faith of people, knowing already how they will react to the tests.
- Jesus appreciates humility, intelligence, and reverence to him.
- I need to make sure to be humble and to use the gifts God has given me for God's glory.
- When tested, I want to pass with flying colors as well, by God's amazing grace!
- Jesus loves all people, and he healed this lady's daughter while at the same time, praising and encouraging her faith! I have personally experieced God saving me through Jesus, and am glad to have faith in him!

So, as a Christian lady, this is what I learn from this passage. People of other beliefs can say "charming" all they want and maybe do not understand the important lessons I personally have learned, but as for me, I praise God for the lessons I learn from what Jesus did and said!!!

-My response

For all the explanations you give about that verse , you still fail to see the message in the passage.
It is not about a Muslim or Christian reading a Quran or Bible , it is reading with rational and logic.

Matthew 15 (NIV)
²¹ Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. ²² A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
²³ Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
²⁴ He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
²⁵ The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
²⁶ He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
²⁷ “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
²⁸ Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Certainly Jesus did'nt intend to insult the lady by comparing her  a `gentile - to a dog .

The reason why Jesus associate Gentiles with dogs are because the type of life they lead.

Jews regarded their lifestyle ,what they ate ,the way they dressed, the hygiene , etc.... to be pure as sanctioned by God.

Their men were circumcised - there was a barrier between them and the animal kingdom.

The Gentiles on the other hand had an opposite lifestyle - they had no restrictions ,much like animals - hence the term dogs.


The message in Mat, 15 is none of what you say dear Christian Lady.

The message is not difficult to comprehend.

Jesus told this gentile lady why he had come and because Jesus saw that she accepted that he did not come to all people - only
to the lost sheep of Israel - her request was granted.

Only because she accepted that fact was her request granted.

There a reason why this verse have been preserved - it is to show gentiles can also receive salvation through righteous belief.

If you Christian Lady have the same faith as that Gentile Lady you will also share in her happiness.

You must also accept what that lady accepted that Jesus only came to the lost sheep of Israel.

Soloman

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

Quote from Post 1:  Matthew 15 (NIV)
21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.


Response: --- I wanted to add a little to this, whether you accept it or not.

It was true that Jesus came to bring revival, first to the Jews, so He gathered twelve disciples to travel with Him, that He might teach them the Gospel, --- which was the Good News of salvation, --- and how to live by faith in God.

--- The twelve were in training, and Jesus sent them out two by two to heal the sick, to cast out evil spirits, and to preach the Gospel, and it says in Matthew 10:
5. These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

Jesus, with the twelve, had gone to the region of Tyre and Sidon, on up the coast beyond Galilee, and a long way from Jerusalem. --- A woman of Canaan came and spoke to Jesus, asking Him to heal her daughter. --- It was a bold move for a Gentile woman to speak to a Jewish man, but she knew who He was and said:---

“Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
And Jesus didn’t respond.

--- Notice the natural reaction of the Jewish disciples towards Gentiles?
They cared not for her need (no compassion), but said to Jesus:
“Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

Then Jesus gave the answer that He had taught the disciples, --- He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
(Jesus was testing the woman’s faith, but also teaching the disciples a new lesson in compassion for others, as He had already taught in different parables.)

--- He let it play itself out. --- She was no doubt close enough to hear what the disciples said, and after Jesus spoke, --- rather than wandering away, disappointed, --- she came closer and knelt before Him and said, “Lord, help me.”

He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
In a footnote in Dakes Study Bible it says:
--- Greek, Kunaria, ‘little dogs,’ --- Gentiles were called dogs by the Jews, so Jesus merely used the common speech of His people. Mature dogs were not cared for, (but ‘little dogs’ were under their master’s table). --- The term was not offensive, but merely expressed the fact that Gentiles were outside of the Covenant rights of Israel. --- End of footnote.
(It suggested that the Jews could have the loaves, and the Gentiles could have the crumbs.)

That is no doubt what the disciples were thinking when they said, “Send her away.” --- and now they were observing how Jesus was dealing with the situation.

And she responds quickly and appropriately,
"Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

And Jesus responds to her faith and granted her request.
--- And the lesson is learned by the Disciples.
If Jesus had granted her request without revealing her faith, --- which, at this time was greater than the faith and prejudice of some of the disciples, --- they could have asked, “How is it that You told us not to go to the Gentiles?”

However, Jesus didn’t go to her, but she came to Him.
--- After the Disciples were trained, they were called Apostles, which means, ‘Sent ones,’ --- Then Jesus said, “Go into all the world and preach the Gospel.”


Placid

[Aarash_Australia]

it's amazing what contortions literalists will put themselves through to try and explain away mistakes and immoralities in scripture.

these books were written and compiled by Men - not God.

They're going to have mistakes, and nasty things.

[Christianlady]

Haydar Husayn, on 26 May 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

A 'yes' would have sufficed. No

Hello Haydar Husayn,

I don't think a simple yes would have been adequate, because just simply stating yes doesn't explain why.

Quote

offense Christianlady, and I really do mean this in the best possible way, but you need to be a bit more concise in your posts, because their length makes it very hard to maintain a discussion with you for long. I would be quite happy to discuss many issues related to Christianity and Islam with you, but I simply don't have the time or the energy.

I am sorry for the length. The thing is, I am very passionate about the Scriptures, which I believe are the Word of God, so it is natural for me to copy and paste them. I think one would find that my own words are not as plentiful as the Scriptures that I quote. The Holy Spirit's leading and the Scriptures are why I believe what I believe.

Quote

Your fellow Christian on this forum, placid, has a similar problem. Every so often everyone has to write a long post, but this should be kept to a minimum.

Lol. I would be interested in meeting Placid someday. It is obvious that even though we don't agree on everything, he likes to study the Bible too.

Quote

Now, with regard to the point I wanted to get at:



Since I want to keep the posts relatively short, I will first deal with your claim that Jesus (ie God in your view) does not view women as inferior to men. This clearly contradicts many passages in the Old and New Testament.
Genesis 3 (NIV)

¹⁶ To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you. ”

When God created Eve, He did not give her pains in childbearing or painful labor, nor did He state that her husband will rule over her.

However, the above were consequences of sin - of disobeying the one rule that God gave to Adam and Eve. Adam has consequences as well, which include the tragic curse on earth and painful labor in order to make a living.

Genesis 3 - http://www.biblegate...203&version=NIV
(I boldened some.)

"¹⁷ To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
¹⁸ It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
¹⁹ By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”"

God punished both Adam and Eve, both man and woman, for disobeying Him. This does not mean that God made women inferior to men, no. It does show however the consequence of the actions that both of them received for their sin.

Because I will try to keep my posts more to the point, I will address the other verses in another thread.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady, 29 May 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[soloman]

Hi Placid

-Your quote.
I wanted to add a little to this, whether you accept it or not.

-My response.
Everyone is certainly entitled to their own point of view. But I also like to say that I welcome your thoughts as you are
rational in your approach to the Scriptures which is an uncommon trait  among Christians.

-Your quote
After the Disciples were trained, they were called Apostles, which means, ‘Sent ones,’ --- Then Jesus said, “Go into all the world and preach the Gospel.”

-My response.
Your description is a bit out of context ,Jesus had many disciples , but he chose 12 apostles and 72 disciples to help him.

Verses to verify the above statement of 12 apostles:

-Matthew 10:2, These are the names of the 12 apostles.

-Mark 3:14, He appointed 12 - designating them apostles

-Luke 6:13, And when morning came , He called His disciples and chose from them 12 whom He named apostles

As for disciples.

-Luke 10:1, The Lord now chose 72 other disciples and sent them ahead in pairs to all the towns and places He planned to visit.


- Your quote
(Jesus was testing the woman’s faith, but also teaching the disciples a new lesson in compassion for others, as He had already taught in different parables.)

-My response
This is your opinion and not part of the verse.

-Your quote
Greek, Kunaria, ‘little dogs,’ --- Gentiles were called dogs by the Jews, so Jesus merely used the common speech of His people. Mature dogs were not cared for, (but ‘little dogs’ were under their master’s table). --- The term was not offensive, but merely expressed the fact that Gentiles were outside of the Covenant rights of Israel. --- End of footnote.
(It suggested that the Jews could have the loaves, and the Gentiles could have the crumbs.)

-My response
It makes no difference whether it is a small tame dog or a vicious wild dog , a dog is a dog - they all represent animal behaviour.

-Your quote
If Jesus had granted her request without revealing her faith, --- which, at this time was greater than the faith and prejudice of some of the disciples, --- they could have asked, “How is it that You told us not to go to the Gentiles?”

-My response
Again you guessing about Jesus's intentions and you are judging the faith of the disciples - remember thou  shall not judge.

Soloman

[Christianlady]

soloman, on 26 May 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

-My response

For all the explanations you give about that verse , you still fail to see the message in the passage.
It is not about a Muslim or Christian reading a Quran or Bible , it is reading with rational and logic.

Matthew 15 (NIV)
²¹ Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. ²² A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
²³ Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
²⁴ He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
²⁵ The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
²⁶ He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
²⁷ “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
²⁸ Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Certainly Jesus did'nt intend to insult the lady by comparing her  a `gentile - to a dog .

Hello Soloman,

No, Jesus did not intend to insult the lady. He was also not comparing her to a dog. He did make a truthful statement with double meaning, but he was not calling her a dog. Instead, he was expressing the point that he is the fulfillment of the Jewish prophesies/promises that God gave to the children of Israel (including Deuteronomy 18, 2 Samuel 7, 1 Chronicles 17, Psalm 2, Psalm 22, Psalm 89, Isaiah 42, Isaiah 53, ...) God sent Jesus to the children of Israel for this reason. It would make no sense for Jesus to go to other peoples who did not have these prophesies/promises concerning him. However, Gentiles both in that time and till today go to Jesus, including me! Jesus accepts those who in the future will believe in him as well:Jews and Gentiles.

Quote

The reason why Jesus associate Gentiles with dogs are because the type of life they lead.

Actually, the Jewish people were ordered by God specifically through Moses to be "set apart." God did not give the laws He gave to Moses to all people, but rather to the children of Israel. Jewish people long before Jesus did not associate with Gentiles. Peter talks about this to a group of Gentiles after he receives a vision from God concerning Gentiles being able to follow Jesus too.

Acts 10 - http://www.biblegate... 10&version=NIV
(I boldened some.)

^"27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. ²⁸ He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.  ²⁹ So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?”
³⁰ Cornelius answered: “Three days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me ³¹ and said, ‘Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. ³² Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.’ ³³ So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us.”
³⁴ Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism ³⁵ but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.  ³⁶ You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.  ³⁷ You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— ³⁸ how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
³⁹ “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross,  ⁴⁰ but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. ⁴¹ He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. ⁴²He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. ⁴³ All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
⁴⁴ While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. ⁴⁵ The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. ⁴⁶ For they heard them speaking in tongues^[Or other languages^] and praising God.
Then Peter said, ⁴⁷ “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”  ⁴⁸ So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days."

Quote

Jews regarded their lifestyle ,what they ate ,the way they dressed, the hygiene , etc.... to be pure as sanctioned by God.

Agreed. Many still do.

Quote

Their men were circumcised - there was a barrier between them and the animal kingdom.

Lol. Um, no. The circumcision was the sign of the covenant between God and them, starting with Abraham. I am curious, do you think women are animals, if they are not "circumcised"? Do you think men who are not circumcised are animals? By the way, do you believe Adam was circumcised? Is he an animal? Or was he a man?

Quote

The Gentiles on the other hand had an opposite lifestyle - they had no restrictions ,much like animals - hence the term dogs.

Sigh. People have been calling other people "dogs" or other terms for a long time. Some Gentiles call Jewish people "dogs" or "pigs"which is really sad. However, it is important to note that Jesus did not call this woman a dog. Rather, he called her "Woman" Why? Because that is what she is, a woman. Women are not dogs, whether they are circumcised (and thank God, God never commanded for women to be circumcised) or not. Men are not dogs, whether they are circumcised (and God commanded circumcision as a way to separate a group of people, the children of Israel, from other groups) or not.

Quote

The message in Mat, 15 is none of what you say dear Christian Lady.

You can deny the message, but please answer my question, do you believe all that is accounted in Matthew is true? Yes or no. If no, then you obviously do not understand the message.

Quote

The message is not difficult to comprehend.

Jesus told this gentile lady why he had come and because Jesus saw that she accepted that he did not come to all people - only
to the lost sheep of Israel - her request was granted.

Only because she accepted that fact was her request granted.

Jesus healed her daughter because of the lady's faith in him. That is what he praised her for, her faith. His statements, which are true and are not insults, were a test to her, which she passed by flying colors.

Quote

There a reason why this verse have been preserved - it is to show gentiles can also receive salvation through righteous belief.

God preserves His Scripture, which is why God has protected the Tanakh and the Christian Scriptures from corruption.  Yes, of course Gentiles receive salvation through righteous belief (faith). Jewish people also receive salvation through righteous belief (faith) as well. Jesus accepts all people who believe in him, both Jews and Gentiles. Below is another account in Matthew, where Jesus commends the faith of a Gentile. Please note that centurions are Gentiles - Roman in particular.

Matthew 8 - http://www.biblegate...w 8&version=NIV
(I boldened some.)

"⁵ When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. ⁶ “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”
⁷ Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”
⁸ The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed.  ⁹ For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
¹⁰ When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. ¹¹ I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.  ¹² But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
¹³ Then Jesus said to thecenturion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.”  And his servant was healed at that moment."

Quote

If you Christian Lady have the same faith as that Gentile Lady you will also share in her happiness.

You must also accept what that lady accepted that Jesus only came to the lost sheep of Israel.

Soloman

I do most definitely share in this lady's happiness!!! Do you? Do you accept all that Jesus said and did accounted in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? Do you accept that Jesus accepts all people, whether Jew or Gentile, who believe in him? Do you accept his gift of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, that Jesus promised his followers, accounted in John 14-16 and was fulfilled accounted in Acts 2 as well as in the lives of his followers from then till when Jesus comes back? Jesus obviously accepted Gentiles who sought him, both those who asked him for healing for others, and those of today, including me.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady, 31 May 2012 - 09:20 AM.

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

Quote from Post 11:
-(Your) response
It makes no difference whether it is a small tame dog or a vicious wild dog , a dog is a dog - they all represent animal behaviour.

-(My) quote
If Jesus had granted her request without revealing her faith, --- which, at this time was greater than the faith and prejudice of some of the disciples, --- they could have asked, “How is it that You told us not to go to the Gentiles?”

- (Your) response
Again you guessing about Jesus's intentions and you are judging the faith of the disciples - remember thou shall not judge.


I want to comment on two things relating to the above:
First, the reference to animals, and: Second the prejudice of the disciples.

First some verses from the Quran:
Surah 2:65. And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!

5:60. Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.

7:166. So when they took pride in that which they had been forbidden, We said unto them: Be ye apes despised and loathed.


--- Do you believe that God actually turned the disobedient ones into apes and swine?

Was it a figure of speech, or was it comparing their mentality to pigs and swine?

[placid]

To follow, the Jewish disciples and their prejudice:

The disciples were Jews and they came with the baggage of the past, so the challenge to Jesus in training them was to teach them to ‘Love everybody,’ including their enemies.

--- We saw how with the Canaanite woman, they said to Jesus, “Send her away for she keeps crying out after us.”

--- As I said, Jesus let it play out so that it taught them a lesson in compassion.

The division between Jews and the people groups around, --- and the closest group, the Samaritans, had resulted years before from intermarriage, --- so they were half Jewish, half Samaritan.

--- ‘The Jews had no dealings with the Samaritans,’ --- and usually when the Jews went from Judea to Galilee they would cross the Jordan river around Jerusalem and go up the east bank past Samaria, which was on the west side of the Jordan, and they would cross back into Galilee in the north, rather than going through Samaria.

Jesus sometimes took the disciples through Samaria. They welcomed Him when he stayed to teach them, but here is a case where they were just passing through on their way to Jerusalem. --- And it says this in Luke 9:    

52. And (He) sent messengers before His face. And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him.
53 But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem.
54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?”

55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of.
56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.” And they went to another village.

--- If that was their mindset, it was pretty strong prejudice, wasn’t it?

--- So they went to another village.


Placid

[placid]

Another lesson for the disciples in dealing with the Samaritans

In John 4 there is the story of the Samaritan woman at the well, which begins:

1 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John
2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples),
3 He left Judea and departed again to Galilee.
4 But He needed to go through Samaria.
5 So He came to a city of Samaria which is called Sychar, near the plot of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.
6. Now Jacob’s well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied from His journey, sat thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour.

7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” 8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.
9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

The Pharisees were criticizing the fact that Jesus was having the disciples baptize converts, even as John was doing in another area, --- so Jesus moved from there, and went up toward Galilee.
And it said, “He needed to go through Samaria.”

He might have ‘needed to go through Samaria’ to get to Galilee, --- or He might have ‘needed to go’ because of the Divine appointment along the way
--- It is interesting that Jesus sent all the disciples to buy food, and He stayed alone, --- but as you read it you can see the reason.

First, a Jewish man would not speak to a woman, and especially no a Samaritan woman.
She entered the conversation and asked various questions that Jesus answered

--- Then He said, in 22.  “You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

27 And at this point His disciples came, and they marveled that He talked with a woman; yet no one said, “What do You seek?” or, “Why are You talking with her?”

--- (Notice the immediate attitude? --- And the woman in her excitement left her waterpot, --- the very reason she had come to the well.)
28 The woman then left her waterpot, went her way into the city, and said to the men,
29 “Come, see a Man who told me all things that I ever did. Could this be the Christ?”
30 Then they went out of the city and came to Him.

31 In the meantime His disciples urged Him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.”
32 But He said to them, “I have food to eat of which you do not know.”
33 Therefore the disciples said to one another, “Has anyone brought Him anything to eat?”
34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.
35 Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest!

--- (The people were coming to the well as a result of the woman’s words
And when Jesus said, “Look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest,” --- He was looking at the people, --- they were the harvest.)

39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all that I ever did.”
40 So when the Samaritans had come to Him, they urged Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days.
41 And many more believed because of His own word.
42 Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”

Now, --- some questions:
What do you think the disciples were going to do, when the crowd came?
--- And what would they be doing during the two days they were there?

Do you think they would have withdrawn from Jesus and sat at a distance, and not mingled with the Samaritans?
--- Or do you think they might have dropped some of their prejudice and began teaching also?


Placid

[soloman]

Hi Christian Lady and Mr Placid

Firstly , i would like to point out that Christians do not own Jesus .

What Christians can lay claim to is the re-interpretation of the Law according to Paul and those who was under his influence.

The early people who followed Jesus ,the Nazarenes ,these are the people who followed the teachings of Jesus and the people
who call themselves Christians follow the re-interpretation of the Law according to Paul's understanding.

It is this re-interpretation of the Law that Muslims have a problem with ,as this Paul swipes away the Law that God ordained with one stroke
of the pen.


-Your quote ,ChristL:
God sent Jesus to the children of Israel for this reason.

-My response:
Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel ,Matthew 15:24, not all Israel.

-Your quote ChristL
However, it is important to note that Jesus did not call this woman a dog. Rather, he called her "Woman" Why? Because that is what she is, a woman. Women are not dogs, whether they are circumcised (and thank God, God never commanded for women to be circumcised) or not. Men are not dogs, whether they are circumcised (and God commanded circumcision as a way to separate a group of people, the children of Israel, from other groups) or not.

-My Response:

No, Jesus did not call this woman a dog , but she cohabits with the uncircumcised and give birth to people who don't believe in circumcision,
hence, the term 'dogs' by Jesus.

Certainly men are not dogs - The question is why do Jesus associate these uncircumcised people with 'dogs' .

You Christians can try to explain it away ,but what Jesus said is what he said.


Circumcision of the flesh and circumcision of the 'heart' meaning those who observe the Law are very important as a believer in God.

Circumcision is an EVERLASTING COVENANT with Abraham - emphasis on everlasting. Genesis 17:1-14

-7) I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations
to come , to be your God and the God of your descendants after you .

-10) This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be  circumcised.

-11) You are to undergo circumcision , and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.

-12) for the generations to come every male among you who is 8 days old must be circumcised ,including those born in your household
   or bought with money from a foreigner - those who are not your offspring.

-13) Whether born in your household or bought with your money , they must be circumcised . My covenant in the flesh is to be an everlasting
covenant .

-14) Any male who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be CUT OFF from his people  he has BROKEN my covenant.


What can we learn from this covenant that God made with Abraham.

1)  Abraham was not an Israelite - it was his descendant Jacob who was called Israel by God - So it is not as you claim Christianlady-
to separate Israel from other groups.

2)  The covenant was made with all Abraham's descendants gentiles and Israelites

3)  The Israelites were the group of people who observed this covenant with God .

4)  The gentiles (nations) on the other hand abandoned circumcision and so abandoned there covenant with God ,they were cut off.
Now you find Paul - who has this infatuation to be an apostle making all sorts of interpretation of the law ,blatantly ignoring Gods
decree on circumcision as an everlasting covenant with Abraham and all his descendants ,gentile and Jew.

5)  This covenant of circumcision was not commanded by any man but by God himself.


-Your quote  Christl:
Jesus obviously accepted Gentiles who sought him, both those who asked him for healing for others, and those of today, including me.

-My response:
Yes ,Jesus accepted non Jews that he met when he was on His mission from God.
But ,you are deluding yourself if you assume that Jesus will accepts you and others when you follow a re-interpretation of the Law.


-Your quote  Placid
56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.”

- My response
If you refer Jesus to the son of man - I have to say Jesus was the son of a woman not a man.

-Your quote  Placid
Do you believe that God actually turned the disobedient ones into apes and swine. ?

-My response
I certainly believe it is possible for God to turn the disobedient into apes and swine, Don't you ?

Soloman

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

Quote from Post 16:
7) I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations
to come , to be your God and the God of your descendants after you .
-10) This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.


Response: --- The sign of circumcision was given to Abraham for him and his descendants, and I believe circumcision was always observed by the Jews, or the descendants of Abraham. --- I believe Jews today still practice this, and they will continue to observe this practice. It is an identification of the Jew, is it not?
--- And circumcision is practiced by many people around the world, which followed the pattern of the Jews.


By comparison, --- God made another covenant with Abraham in Genesis 13:
14. And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are—northward, southward, eastward, and westward;
15 for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever.

And in Genesis 17 (just a few verses after the covenant of circumcision), it says:
19. Then God said: “Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.
21 But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.”

This promise was repeated to Jacob, and he relates it to Joseph in Gen 48:
3. Then Jacob said to Joseph: “God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me,
4 and said to me, ‘Behold, I will make you fruitful and multiply you, and I will make of you a multitude of people, and give this land to your descendants after you as an everlasting possession.

And to Moses, God said this in Exodus 6:
6 Therefore say to the children of Israel: ‘I am the Lord; I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, I will rescue you from their bondage, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments.
7 I will take you as My people, and I will be your God. Then you shall know that I am the Lord your God who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
8 And I will bring you into the land which I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and I will give it to you as a heritage: I am the Lord.

Again in Joshua, just before they crossed the Jordan River into the land of Canaan, it says in Joshua 1:
1 After the death of Moses the servant of the Lord, it came to pass that the Lord spoke to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ assistant, saying:
2 “Moses My servant is dead. Now therefore, arise, go over this Jordan, you and all this people, to the land which I am giving to them—the children of Israel.
3 Every place that the sole of your foot will tread upon I have given you, as I said to Moses.


--- So the Land of Canaan was given to the Children of Israel (the twelve tribes, or sons of Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel).
--- Is this not an everlasting covenant with Israel too?


Placid

[Haji 2003]

placid, on 06 June 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

--- So the Land of Canaan was given to the Children of Israel (the twelve tribes, or sons of Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel).
--- Is this not an everlasting covenant with Israel too?
Placid

Does your definition of everlasting allow for their being expelled for a couple of thousand years? That's really the fundamental problem isn't it? If God really gave the land to them, you'd imagine that He'd be able to ensure that they'd remain there?

Clearly He didn't.

They are there now, with their gay pride marches (which must sit really well with the OT), and no doubt they'll be there for some years to come. But then they'll leave again. Jerusalem will be theirs for perpetuity in the same way as the Third Reich lasted for a thousand years.

[placid]

Hi Haji,

I wish there were some Jewish posters here to keep the balance, to whom we could ask such questions.

I am not taking up the Jewish cause, but observing that they are a people with roots that deserve the right to live in their land, do they not?

There are endtime prophecies that involve the Jews being in their city of Jerusalem.

We will have to wait and see how it plays out.

[Haji 2003]

placid, on 08 June 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

I wish there were some Jewish posters here to keep the balance, to whom we could ask such questions.
I am not taking up the Jewish cause, but observing that they are a people with roots that deserve the right to live in their land, do they not?

The political dimension of the debate is another matter.

I was just referring to your religious beliefs and asking that if you believe God had granted this land to the Jews for all eternity - why were they kicked out by the Romans? As a Muslim I believe that there is an inconsistency here.

Secondly there are a number of queries relating to this:

placid, on 08 June 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

There are endtime prophecies that involve the Jews being in their city of Jerusalem.

For example:

1. If this interpretation has always been there in Christianity why were there no moves to instal a Jewish government in Jerusalem at the time of the Crusades?
2. Why were Jews seemingly comfortable in living outside the Holy Land for all these millenia? I note that the initial moves towards founding Israel in the 19th century were mooted by secular Jews - the religious dimension is more recent.
3. Who says that the end times are now?


I just see that there is a fortuitous coming together of a political, economic and military agenda and a modern American interpretation of Christianity is being used (after the event) to give some justification for it.

Edited by Haji 2003, 08 June 2012 - 06:50 AM.

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

Quote from Post 16:
56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.”
- My response
If you refer Jesus to the son of man - I have to say Jesus was the son of a woman not a man.


Response: --- As I’ve said before, Jesus was CALLED the Son of God. --- We know that God didn’t come down and have a relationship with Mary. --- Nevertheless, the Spirit of God impregnated Mary, and Jesus was born

The angel Gabriel said two things, they should CALL His name Jesus, and that He would be CALLED the Son of God.
Because He was indwelt all His life on earth by the Word (Logos), He was God’s Messenger, Servant, Savior and Messiah, to the ‘lost people of the house of Israel’ --- the remnants of the 12 tribes, who at this time were not honoring God or His plan of salvation.
--- God had promised a Messiah to come with a New Covenant which was prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34, --- and was fulfilled in Hebrews 8:7-13.

The Book of Hebrews was written to the Jews, that they might understand what had happened, and understand the New Covenant (Testament) --- The author is not identified and the content seems to have been inspired, or ‘dictated’ by the Holy Spirit, to or through someone, and the only thing that makes it personal, and sometimes attributed it to Paul, is the last chapter.
--- Since Paul didn’t write most letters, himself, but had a companion do the writing, --- it doesn’t follow the pattern of Paul, besides, --- when he was sent as an Apostle to the Gentiles, his life and work was there.    

Jesus came to restore faith in God and to live the New Covenant before them, and to train disciples and Apostles, and to show them the new relationship, as was revealed in John 14:17, about the Holy Spirit, indwelling Him, --- and after His death, resurrection and ascension, would indwell them, Acts 1:4-5.  

--- Verse 8, is their commission to first be witnesses at home, ‘in Jerusalem,’ ---and then to the neighbors, ‘all Judea and Samaria,’ (notice, no more prejudice toward the Samaritans), --- then, ‘to the end of the earth.’  

--- In Acts 2:1-4 the Holy Spirit came upon them, and the first manifestation was that they began to speak in other languages, --- and it was not babble, as though they were under a spell, --- but they spoke in the languages of the people that had come to Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost, v 5-12.
And, after the crowd gathered to see and hear, they said, --- notice v8, “And how is it that we hear them speak, each in our own language in which we were born?”

If you make the comparison, --- Jesus spoke from the cradle with God’s wisdom, did He not? --- Here are the Disciples and Apostles of Jesus, speaking languages they never learned, and glorifying God, v11.

Jesus, being human was the Son of ‘mankind’ --- He usually called Himself the Son of Man, --- whereas in the Quran He is always called the Son of Mary.

It is easy to understand why Jesus was not identified as the Son of God in the Quran. --- Among the some 360 idols in the Kabah there were those, supposedly, daughters and sons of gods, --- so it would have added to the mockery had the idolaters heard that there was one more ‘son of god.’
Furthermore, these idols were there until the eighth year of the Hijrah, which was only two years before Muhammad’s death.

However, there is enough of the witness of Jesus in the Quran for believers to acknowledge that Jesus was the Messiah.

The references to Jesus, --- ‘He, Him, and Son,’ --- are always capitalized in the OT and NT because of the Word (Logos) that indwelt Him, and the Holy Spirit that was with Him.

(Sorry, long response for your short comment.)


Placid

[soloman]

Hi Placid
I have no problem with a long response.

-Your quote:
- As I’ve said before, Jesus was CALLED the Son of God. --- We know that God didn’t come down and have a relationship with Mary. --- Nevertheless, the Spirit of God impregnated Mary, and Jesus was born

-My response:
There is no question to the miraculous birth of Jesus to His virgin Mother.

If one refer to God as Father does this make one God's son ?

The phrase son of God is mentioned many time in the OT and NT.

Genesis 6:2
SONS Of GOD saw that the daughters of men were beautiful.

Job 2:1
On another day THE SONS OF GOD came to present themselves before the Lord,
Be advised that most Bibles now substitute the Hebrew words 'THE SONS OF GOD' with angel.

Job 38:7
while the morning stars sang together and all the SONS OF GOD shouted for joy.
Be advised that most Bibles of today have substituted the Hebrew words 'THE SONS OF GOD' with angels.

Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called THE SONS OF GOD.

Romans 8:14
because those who are led by the Spirit of God are SONS OF GOD.

Romans 8:19
The creation waits in eager expectation for THE SONS OF GOD to be revealed.


If Jesus were refered to as the son of God then it is no different in meaning to those who were refered to in the above verses.

-Your quote:
God had promised a Messiah to come with a New Covenant which was prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34,

-My response:
If you quote this verse to suggest that Jesus brought the new covenant then you must also quote the rest of the verse , otherwise you'll
be guilty of what you accused me of - choosing verses to prove a point.

Jeremiah 31 :30
-30) Instead, everyone will die for his OWN sin,
Is this what Paul preaches ?

-31) .....I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
Where do Paul get that you gentiles are included in this verse ?

-33) This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel.......
Do the gentiles belong to the house of Israel ?

-34) No longer will a man teach his neighbor or a man his brother , saying " Know the Lord" because they will know Me.....
Paul went all over gentile lands teaching his gospel -- Is it not ?

The more we analyze these verses the more obvious it becomes that the new covenant did not happen in the time of Jesus the Messiah.

-Your quote:
Jesus, being human was the Son of ‘mankind’ --- He usually called Himself the Son of Man, --- whereas in the Quran He is always called the Son of Mary.

-My response:
If you suggest Jesus to be the son of man then I have to say the phrase is not unique to Jesus alone.

Ezekiel 6:2
-2) SON OF MAN set your face against the mountains.

Ezekiel 12 :2
-2) SON OF MAN you are living among a rebellious people.

Ezekiel 12:9
-9) SON OF MAN did not that ...........

Ezekiel 12:8
-8) SON OF MAN tremble as you eat.......

Ezekiel 12 :27
-27) SON OF MAN the house of Israel.........

Ezekiel 14 : 13
-13) SON OF MAN  if a country sins.......

The phrase SON OF MAN is used approximately  94 times in Ezekiel.

In Isaiah 51:12   and    56 : 2

In Jeremiah 49 : 8  and  49:33  and   50 : 40   and   51 : 43

Numbers 23 : 19

In Job 3 times   ,  In Psalms 4 times

Daniel was also refered to as SON OF MAN.

If Jesus is refered to as the son of Mary in the Quran we no exactly who He is, But if He is refered to as the son of man then
it is not really specific as the SON OF MAN phrase were used across the Scripture.

- Your quote:
However, there is enough of the witness of Jesus in the Quran for believers to acknowledge that Jesus was the Messiah.

-My response:
I agree.

Soloman

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

Quote from Post 22:
My response:
There is no question to the miraculous birth of Jesus to His virgin Mother.

If one refer to God as Father does this make one God's son ?


--- Response: --- In the NT Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, and God was CALLED His Heavenly Father. --- This was to introduce the ‘family of God,’ as part of the New Covenant.
--- That would include ‘born again’ believers, --- or ‘born of the Holy Spirit’ believers, --- or, as it says, ---those who were ‘born of God,’ in John 1:
12. ‘But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.’


Quote: The phrase son of God is mentioned many time in the OT and NT.
If Jesus were refered to as the son of God then it is no different in meaning to those who were refered to in the above verses.


Response: --- I am glad you have acknowledged that different ones were called ‘sons of God.’
The difference is in what you said earlier,
Quote: There is no question to the miraculous birth of Jesus to His virgin Mother.
--- This is the difference, Jesus had no human father, as all the others had, and Jesus was indwelt by the Word (Logos) of God that came from heaven. --- If we identify that the Word could be CALLED the Son of God, then Jesus could be Called the Son of God, with a capital S, signifying ‘Deity’ because the Scripture says that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.


Quote: If you suggest Jesus to be the son of man then I have to say the phrase is not unique to Jesus alone.


Response: --- Again I am glad that you have acknowledged that others have been called ‘sons of man.’
Now you are accepting both terms, and the easy way to understand it is that Jesus was the ‘Son of Man,’ through the Virgin Birth, being the Son of Mary in the flesh. --- But because the Seed planted in her was of the Holy Spirit of God, the Christ, the Messiah was the Son of God.’


--- (You mentioned this) --- Jeremiah 31:29. In those days they shall say no more:
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.

--- This was a type of ‘blame game’ they played by saying the children weren’t responsible for their own actions because it was the fault of the father.
(This could almost be said today if a father was infected with ‘aids’ and transferred it to his son. --- If the son was dying from the disease, he could say, “It’s not my fault, it was my father who did it.”
But God says (you can’t use that argument any more), but everyone shall die (a spiritual death) for his own iniquity.

There is a cross reference to Ezekiel 18:
1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying,
2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.

--- There actually is a cross reference to what Paul said in Galatians 6:
4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5 For each one shall bear his own load.
6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

(To be continued, as there is a little more from the Post.)


Placid

[soloman]

Hi Placid

-Your quote:
In the NT Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, and God was CALLED His Heavenly Father. --- This was to introduce the ‘family of God,’ as part of the New Covenant.
--- That would include ‘born again’ believers, --- or ‘born of the Holy Spirit’ believers, --- or, as it says, ---those who were ‘born of God,’ in John 1:
12. ‘But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.’

-My response:
Your response indicates that Jesus was the only one that was refered to as a son of God ,when in reality in Genesis  6:2 we find the mentioning of
the Sons of God - would it not be biased only to refer  Jesus as the son of God when others are also refered to in this manner ?
It does not matter if Jesus had a miraculous birth, this does not take away from others if God refer to them as His sons in the OT.


You mention the introduction of God's family , but those you include are based on conjecture and not from revelation of God.
So you find that before God introduced 'His family' as you put it in the NT ,He already mentions sons and children  in the OT.
In Isaiah 45 : 11
-11) .....do you question me  about my children or give me orders about the works of my hands ?
Now the above is a revelation to the Prophet Isaiah , God refers to Israel as His children long before assumptions are made in John 1 : 12,13
Is  Israel no longer God's children ? seeing God introduces His new family .

About The Gospel According to John.
It is traditionally thought that the apostle Jesus loved wrote this Gospel - but what is strange is that this apostle's name is not even mentioned  in John.
Most modern Christian scholars have concluded that this gospel were written in 3 parts each with its own author.
John the Evangelist is credited with writing the last part towards the end of the last century.

-Your quote:
Jesus had no human father

-My response:
I'm glad you acknowledge that Jesus had no human father, which automatically cancels Him having a male genealogy and thus removing
Him from being a descendant of David , which is in line with Jesus understanding of whose  descendant the Messiah was in Mat,22:41-44 .

-Your quote:
Again I am glad that you have acknowledged that others have been called ‘sons of man.’
Now you are accepting both terms, and the easy way to understand it is that Jesus was the ‘Son of Man,’ through the Virgin Birth, being the Son of Mary in the flesh. --- But because the Seed planted in her was of the Holy Spirit of God, the Christ, the Messiah was the Son of God.’

- My response:
Jesus name according to the gospels were 'Jesus" and not Messiah or Christ , Christ is a title which comes from Christos in Greek , a translation
of the Hebrew word Messiah.
Cyrus the King was also a Messiah - Isaiah 45:1 . I wander what the implications would be if Cyrus the Messiah  was a Jew .

The title of Messiah was not only conferred on Jesus but on Cyrus ,by God as well.-Isaiah 45:1.

Concerning the son of man,
Before we can suggest who's who , we first have to examine what Jesus himself says about the son of man,

The Pharisees and the Scribes asked Jesus for a sign , Jesus replied in Matthew 12:38 -39 ,
-39) He answered , " A wicked an adulterous  generation asks for a miraculous sign ! But none will be given it except for the sign of
   the Prophet Jonah.
-40) For as Jonah was in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man shall be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

So we find that Jesus said that in Jonah is a sign for the Son of Man , the only sign He is prepared to give - which makes it a very
important point as far as who the Son of Man is concerned.
Whoever is nominated to be the Son of Man must undoubtedly have experienced  what Jesus foretold -- Is it not ?

If I may ask you then did Jesus fit the description of the Son of Man as foretold by Jesus in Mat, 12:38-39 ?

Soloman

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

Quote: If I may ask you then did Jesus fit the description of the Son of Man as foretold by Jesus in Mat, 12:38-39


Response: --- I think we have spent enough time on the Genealogy and names, Son of God and Son of Man, to recognize that they refer to Jesus who had said this in Matthew 12:
38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

--- I think that should be quite self-explanatory because Jesus said later in Matthew 20:
17 Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them,
18 “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death,
19 and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.”

--- This was clarified in Acts 3, after the promised Holy Spirit had been poured out on the disciples, and Peter boldly spoke to the Pharisees at the Temple:
11 Now as the lame man who was healed held on to Peter and John, all the people ran together to them in the porch which is called Solomon’s, greatly amazed.
12 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: “Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk?
13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.
14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,
15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.
16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

--- Not only did they witness the death and resurrection of the Christ, which fulfilled the Sign of Jonah,
--- But notice that, after His ascension, in v13, Peter calls Him “His Servant, Jesus.”

Also, a few verses later, where it verifies that He was also the Prophet that was to come, Peter again in v26, calls Him, “His Servant Jesus”:
17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers.
18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.  
22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.
23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’
24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretol] these days.
25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’
26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

--- (At this time His role as Son of God and Son of Man, in the flesh, had been fulfilled.)


Placid