180 replies to this topic

[shia_from_texas]

aliasghark, on 29 May 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

It makes sense, it's how things are analyzed. 'Doing this activity has 2 benefits, and 26 drawbacks. As the pros are outweighed by the cons, one shouldn't do it'. (I imagine if the Quran mentioned only the harmful nature of it, you would be telling us how science has proven there are some benefits to alcohol, and therefore that we shouldn't rely on the Quran)

He will try to tell you up is down if it means it bashes Islam in some way, you can't argue with this terrible logic!

[hejsansvejsan]

aliasghark, on 29 May 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

It makes sense, it's how things are analyzed. 'Doing this activity has 2 benefits, and 26 drawbacks. As the pros are outweighed by the cons, one shouldn't do it'. (I imagine if the Quran mentioned only the harmful nature of it, you would be telling us how science has proven there are some benefits to alcohol, and therefore that we shouldn't rely on the Quran)

I am not saying your interpretation is wrong. Only that there obviously are lots of other interpretations too.

[aliasghark]

Wow, 'Obviously' there are other 'lots of other interpretations', and you are 'not saying' my interpretation is wrong? What are you, an Ayatollah?

No hejsanvejsan, Islam is pretty clear on prohibition of intoxication, it's corroborated through other narrations as well - there's no way around it. Things that hurt your health are generally not allowed in Islam.

But we don't need alcohol to get along, don't worry - let's not get fixated on this issue.

[hejsansvejsan]

You may think Islam is very clear. But the existance of Muslims who do not share your opinion proves the opposite. This is common sense. No need to be an Ayatollah to see this.

[aliasghark]

If a trained scientist A says 'the sun is very hot, its temperature is 5500 degrees celsius',

and random person on the street B has a different opinion 'I don't think the sun is that hot, it might be 35 degrees celsius',

hejsansvejsan comes along and says 'hmm, there are multiple points of view, A and B, so it's not clear if the sun is hot. It's common sense that it's not clear, because there are people who don't share the scientist's view. And I don't need to be a scientist to find out how hot the sun is'.

[shia_from_texas]

aliasghark, on 30 May 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:

If a trained scientist A says 'the sun is very hot, its temperature is 5500 degrees celsius',

and random person on the street B has a different opinion 'I don't think the sun is that hot, it might be 35 degrees celsius',

hejsansvejsan comes along and says 'hmm, there are multiple points of view, A and B, so it's not clear if the sun is hot. It's common sense that it's not clear, because there are people who don't share the scientist's view. And I don't need to be a scientist to find out how hot the sun is'.

What did I tell you? He is looking for an excuse to bash Islam, that is the whole reason he is here.

[aliasghark]

shia_from_texas, on 30 May 2012 - 07:29 AM, said:

What did I tell you? He is looking for an excuse to bash Islam, that is the whole reason he is here.

He wants to change Islam so that it's not as Islamic anymore... no wait, now he says he doesn't want to change Islam, he just wants Muslims to respect the law... no wait, he can't say which laws Muslims are breaking by being Muslim, and he now just wants to get along.

[shia_from_texas]

aliasghark, on 30 May 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

He wants to change Islam so that it's not as Islamic anymore... no wait, now he says he doesn't want to change Islam, he just wants Muslims to respect the law... no wait, he can't say which laws Muslims are breaking by being Muslim, and he now just wants to get along.

Salam alaikum, Aliasghark,

It's Johanna. This man doesn't know WHAT he wants from Muslims and Islam. My guess is that he wants us to just disappear along with our religion because we somehow upset the order of his society.  What does that mean exactly, changing Islam so it's not as Islamic anymore???? Another thing, Muslims DO respect the law, give us an example of how we don't! I can assure you, he can't come up with one law that we are breaking and as far as getting along, well, he is a very hostile and hateful person, how does he expect to get along with us? This is amazing. You know, my cousin is married to a revert from Sweden, I wonder how this guy would react to one of his own accepting Islam and practicing it?

[aliasghark]

Wa alaikum assalam. Yeah, his rantings have so far been pretty incoherent, he hasn't been able to tell us exactly what he's doing here or what he wants in a logical way. I have a feeling he's indirectly trying to get us to water down our Islamic practices so that ultimately there's not much of actual Islam left except for some meaningless rites (as with other religions), hence the ridiculing of modesty and halal diet.

Inshallah he'll see the light soon. 'First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.' I think we're somewhere in the ridicule-fight phases

[shia_from_texas]

aliasghark, on 30 May 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

Wa alaikum assalam. Yeah, his rantings have so far been pretty incoherent, he hasn't been able to tell us exactly what he's doing here or what he wants in a logical way. I have a feeling he's indirectly trying to get us to water down our Islamic practices so that ultimately there's not much of actual Islam left except for some meaningless rites (as with other religions), hence the ridiculing of modesty and halal diet.

Inshallah he'll see the light soon. 'First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.' I think we're somewhere in the ridicule-fight phases

Yes, it seems that way. I want to see what else he is going to come back with now. Doesn't he understand that his so called argument is full of holes and doesn't make much sense??

[hejsansvejsan]

aliasghark, on 30 May 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:

If a trained scientist A says 'the sun is very hot, its temperature is 5500 degrees celsius',

and random person on the street B has a different opinion 'I don't think the sun is that hot, it might be 35 degrees celsius',

hejsansvejsan comes along and says 'hmm, there are multiple points of view, A and B, so it's not clear if the sun is hot. It's common sense that it's not clear, because there are people who don't share the scientist's view. And I don't need to be a scientist to find out how hot the sun is'.

So you are comparing an ayatollah with a scientist? How convenient would it be if science could tell us which is the correct faith! I believe that faith is a personal thing that is independent of level of scholarship.  But if we are talking about scholarship I am convinced that there are lots of teologians who are more qualified than ayatollahs in religious matters.

[aliasghark]

hejsansvejsan, on 30 May 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

But if we are talking about scholarship I am convinced that there are lots of teologians who are more qualified than ayatollahs in religious matters.

Haha really, like who?

[shia_from_texas]

aliasghark, on 30 May 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

Haha really, like who?

I want to hear the answer to that since he is just so learned about Islam!

[hejsansvejsan]

aliasghark, on 30 May 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

Haha really, like who?

Being swedish, the first name that comes to my mind is professor Jan Hjärpe http://en.wikipedia....Jan_Hj%C3%A4rpe  He is a famous Swedish islamolog and has taught many good students. But of course there are many universities in the world with academic islamic studies. I am no specialist on the subject. So I made a search on internet and found this http://islam.uga.edu...html#professors

Edited by hejsansvejsan, 30 May 2012 - 03:31 PM.

[aliasghark]

And how did you decide that that guy was more 'qualified' in Islam than an Ayatollah?

[shia_from_texas]

aliasghark, on 30 May 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

And how did you decide that that guy was more 'qualified' in Islam than an Ayatollah?

I can answer that, the guy is Swedish and therefore more qualified according to our confused friend here, lol

[hejsansvejsan]

aliasghark, on 30 May 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

And how did you decide that that guy was more 'qualified' in Islam than an Ayatollah?

Well, I don´t know the Ayatollahs so well. So I have to admit there maybe some who have similar academic qualifications. But science demands objectivity. And my impression is that most Ayatollahs have difficulties in living up to this criterion. I may be wrong. Could you please mention some Ayatollahs and their academic qualifications?

[aliasghark]

hejsansvejsan, on 30 May 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

But science demands objectivity. And my impression is that most Ayatollahs have difficulties in living up to this criterion.

Where did you get that impression from?

And what is the 'science' that you're referring to here?

[shia_from_texas]

Inaya, on 30 May 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

This swedish man is asking politely and commenting in a polite way. We don't have to be so harsh in commenting. He asked about our Ayatallahs and their knowledge. It's a nice question. I can't answer now, I'm on the phone..

But I do know that our Imams had great knowledge, including science, maths, philosofy etc. There are narrations that desbribe their discussions with atheïst, christians, and jews. The way they discuss is mindblowing and very impressive.

If you read his previous comments from the beginning, you'd see that he is condescending and rude.

[shia_from_texas]

Inaya, on 30 May 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't have the time to go through all the comments. But him being rude doesn't mean we have to react in a harsh way.

My question now, is this still about the women that wanted to pray with her family? Or did the topic change to Ayatallahs and scientists?

It actually changed to find fault within Muslims and Islam, claiming that Muslims do not obey the laws and then it turned to Ayatallahs and scientists.

[aliasghark]

shia_from_texas, on 30 May 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

It actually changed to find fault within Muslims and Islam, claiming that Muslims do not obey the laws and then it turned to Ayatallahs and scientists.

Yeah, it's Ayatullahs and other scholars for now

As you can see hejsansvejsan is going around in circles and not sticking to one topic - he first says Islam should be changed. When asked what should be changed in Islam, he doesn't answer and says Muslims should respect the law. When asked which law are Muslims breaking, he says he just wants to get along... blah blah.

[hejsansvejsan]

Inaya, on 30 May 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

hejsansvejsan, var är du?

Please enlighten us which topic you want to discuss, one at a time. It's easier for us if you could post one question, or some interpretation you have about Islam, and then we can try to answer and elaborate more clearly.

Hej Inaya! Jag är här. Men strax ska jag sova.

Please read the first post in this thread! And as it seems that you can read Swedish, please read what the Muslim woman wrote and the comments that the readers have written (I gave the link)! What is your impression? And what do you think of her interpretation of Islam? And what do you think of the possibility that Islam and Swedish society will accept and respect each other? This was what I wanted to discuss.