12 replies to this topic

[Christianlady]

Hello,

The Christian Cross is probably something many Muslims do not understand or like. However, for Christians, the Christian Cross is a very important symbol of what Jesus did once for all on the cross.

Jesus is Jewish. His mother Mary is Jewish. During Jesus' time, Israel, which was the nation of the Jewish people, had been living under the conquest and rule of Rome. The Roman soldiers were not very nice. They were known for their brutality. Before and after Jesus' death on the cross, the Roman soldiers had crucified on crosses many Jewish people, as well as people of other groups. Criminals and rebellious people were crucified, as well as innocent people as a fear tactic to intimidate others.

For the Jewish people, most of them do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah who God promised would be on the throne of King David forever (2 Samuel 7, 1 Chronicles 17, Psalm 2, Psalm 89). However, the Jewish apostles who Jesus chose, who walked and talked with Jesus, as well as all the Jewish disciples who continued to follow him, did believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and were scared and at a loss when Jesus died on the cross.

Later on, when God rose Jesus from the dead, the apostles and disciples understood that the suffering and death of the Messiah was prophesied about, because Jesus explained to them about how he fulfills the prophesies and promises and the law that God gave to the children of Israel. So, the Christian cross is the symbol of how Jesus fulfilled the suffering and death that was prophesied about concerning him.

However, Jesus also fulfills prophesies of God rescuing him. Christians believe that God rose Jesus from the dead, and that Jesus is coming back again! So, even though the Christian cross is an important symbol, it is not the only symbol. The empty tomb, the dove (which symbolizes the Holy Spirit) and other symbols are important to Christians too.

The Christian Cross reminds many Christians that God loves us so much, that Jesus became the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world, and died for us. God is way above human suffering, but Christians believe that God took on human suffering through Jesus, and that because of what Jesus did once for all on the cross, both Jews and Gentiles have a new covenant with God, through Jesus. Now, this does not mean that Jesus abolished the Old Covenant no! Jesus fulfilled /fulfills/will fulfill the Law and the Prophets, all the Scriptures concerning him. The cross is just one symbol of what Jesus did in accordance to God's plan.

If you have any polite questions or comments, I'd be interested in hearing them. I understand that most people here do not believe (after all, this is a Muslim forum) and that is fine. I am merely explaining what I and many other Christians believe concerning Jesus and what he did once for all on the cross.

Peace and God bless you

[Rasul]

Does God have Nationality?

[Jihadi]

salaam

its nice to see a christian here like you  here with the true followers of Muhammad and his Ahlul Bayt

ok to my little of knowledge that i have i can tell you with no disrespect to you and your religion but the cross stands for cursed it is said that being cruxified in a cross  ment you were cursed but all this i got from  from other people sources and history, look it up yourself you will find it , here is a good link i found in that  http://www.watchtowe...appendix_05.htm




THE cross is loved and respected by millions of people. The Encyclopædia Britannica calls the cross “the principal symbol of the Christian religion.” Nevertheless, true Christians do not use the cross in worship. Why not?
An important reason is that Jesus Christ did not die on a cross. The Greek word generally translated “cross” is stau·ros′. It basically means “an upright pale or stake.” The Companion Bible points out: “[Stau·ros′] never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle . . . There is nothing in the Greek of the [New Testament] even to imply two pieces of timber.”
In several texts, Bible writers use another word for the instrument of Jesus’ death. It is the Greek word xy′lon. (Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Galatians 3:13; 1 Peter 2:24) This word simply means “timber” or “a stick, club, or tree.”
Explaining why a simple stake was often used for executions, the bookDas Kreuz und die Kreuzigung (The Cross and the Crucifixion), by Hermann Fulda, states: “Trees were not everywhere available at the places chosen for public execution. So a simple beam was sunk into the ground. On this the outlaws, with hands raised upward and often also with their feet, were bound or nailed.”
The most convincing proof of all, however, comes from God’s Word. The apostle Paul says: “Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: ‘Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake [“a tree,” King James Version].’” (Galatians 3:13) Here Paul quotes Deuteronomy 21:22, 23, which clearly refers to a stake, not a cross. Since such a means of execution made the person “a curse,” it would not be proper for Christians to decorate their homes with images of Christ impaled.
There is no evidence that for the first 300 years after Christ’s death, those claiming to be Christians used the cross in worship. In the fourth century, however, pagan Emperor Constantine became a convert to apostate Christianity and promoted the cross as its symbol. Whatever Constantine’s motives, the cross had nothing to do with Jesus Christ. The cross is, in fact, pagan in origin. The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The cross is found in both pre-Christian and non-Christian cultures.” Various other authorities have linked the cross with nature worship and pagan sex rites.
Why, then, was this pagan symbol promoted? Apparently, to make it easier for pagans to accept “Christianity.” Nevertheless, devotion to any pagan symbol is clearly condemned by the Bible. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) The Scriptures also forbid all forms of idolatry. (Exodus 20:4, 5;1 Corinthians 10:14) With very good reason, therefore, true Christians do not use the cross in worship.*

Edited by Jihadi, 23 May 2012 - 05:16 PM.

[soloman]

Hi Christian Lady

Please do not feel offended if I question your position on Jesus .

You go out into the world and spread stories about Jesus the Messiah ,which I find to be false and at best debatable.

In Honor of Jesus I'd like to inform you that He did not Die on the cross.

Christianlady, on 23 May 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

The Roman soldiers were not very nice. They were known for their brutality. Before and after Jesus' death on the cross, the Roman soldiers had crucified on crosses many Jewish people, as well as people of other groups. Criminals and rebellious people were crucified, as well as innocent people as a fear tactic to intimidate others.

The Christian Cross reminds many Christians that God loves us so much, . The cross is just one symbol of what Jesus did in accordance to God's plan.

If you have any polite questions or comments, I'd be interested in hearing them. I understand that most people here do not believe (after all, this is a Muslim forum) and that is fine. I am merely explaining what I and many other Christians believe concerning Jesus and what he did once for all on the cross.

You say that the Romans were not nice ,brutal etc.....

The cross was the Roman symbol for crucifying and intimidating.

That means the Romans regarded the cross as the symbol to get what they wanted, torture etc.....

It is ironic that you claim to love Jesus and yet you hold the Roman cross of torture so dear to you ( by you ,I mean Christians)

If you really loved Jesus as you say ,why don't you discard this horific symbol ?

Soloman

[samarobin0]

soloman, on 23 May 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

The cross was the Roman symbol for crucifying and intimidating.

That means the Romans regarded the cross as the symbol to get what they wanted, torture etc.....

It is ironic that you claim to love Jesus and yet you hold the Roman cross of torture so dear to you ( by you ,I mean Christians)

If you really loved Jesus as you say ,why don't you discard this horific symbol ?

Soloman

Actually, no they view it as a reminder of the sacrifice. As i grew up in a catholic family and home as a child my mother used to always pray her rosary beads and held the cross as a reminder that she needs to make an effort to become close with God as she believed Jesus was in that moment. She used to have me and my sister hold the cross and promise with each day we will sacrifice something in our lives to become closer with God.. this is a common catholic prayer they do daily.
Even though I personally have chosen to follow a different path & believe certain events differently then my mother, i still find the beauty in my mothers devotion.

[AR2011]

Quote

The Christian Cross is probably something many Muslims do not understand or like

the cross is certainly not something i dislike. i respect ur faith and as Muslims we respect the "people of the book". also, the Quran commands "lekum deenakum walya deeni" meaning "i have my religion and u have urs". there should be mutual respect. and imam ali as said if u r not my brother in faith then u r my brother in humanity.

[Qa'im]

While I believe Jesus was not crucified and rather Allah saved him from that, what I appreciate in the cross is the concept of self-sacrifice. The quote "carry your crosses and follow me" symbolizes that we all have burdens, and we are to face them directly whilst submitting to God. That is the only way to overcome life's challenges. Unfortunately, for the Apostles and early Christians, persecution was very real, and many of them were killed unjustly. Christianlady, you may be interested in the story of the death of Husayn at the Battle of Karbala', as it also symbolizes some of the ideals you admire in the cross.

[Renaissance_Man]

Technically, Jesus wasn't crucified on a cross.  According to the words of Paul and other early Christian sources, Jesus was crucified on a tree not a cross.  Just putting it out there.

Putting that aside, you state that Christians believe that Jesus or God died for the sins of mankind.  This is at odds with both the Old Testament which says that one man cannot take upon another's sins and Jesus himself.  In the NT Jesus states his mission is to uphold and fulfill the law.  Nowhere does he say his mission is to be a human sacrifice for mankind's sins.  I understand this is what Christian theology teaches, but I would urge you to study the words of Jesus himself and see whether this has any basis in the NT.

Edited by Renaissance_Man, 23 May 2012 - 10:05 PM.

[Chaotic Muslem]

Christianlady, on 23 May 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Hello,

The Christian Cross is probably something many Muslims do not understand or like. However, for Christians, the Christian Cross is a very important symbol of what Jesus did once for all on the cross.

Jesus is Jewish. His mother Mary is Jewish. During Jesus' time, Israel, which was the nation of the Jewish people, had been living under the conquest and rule of Rome. The Roman soldiers were not very nice. They were known for their brutality. Before and after Jesus' death on the cross, the Roman soldiers had crucified on crosses many Jewish people, as well as people of other groups. Criminals and rebellious people were crucified, as well as innocent people as a fear tactic to intimidate others.

For the Jewish people, most of them do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah who God promised would be on the throne of King David forever (2 Samuel 7, 1 Chronicles 17, Psalm 2, Psalm 89). However, the Jewish apostles who Jesus chose, who walked and talked with Jesus, as well as all the Jewish disciples who continued to follow him, did believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and were scared and at a loss when Jesus died on the cross.

Later on, when God rose Jesus from the dead, the apostles and disciples understood that the suffering and death of the Messiah was prophesied about, because Jesus explained to them about how he fulfills the prophesies and promises and the law that God gave to the children of Israel. So, the Christian cross is the symbol of how Jesus fulfilled the suffering and death that was prophesied about concerning him.

However, Jesus also fulfills prophesies of God rescuing him. Christians believe that God rose Jesus from the dead, and that Jesus is coming back again! So, even though the Christian cross is an important symbol, it is not the only symbol. The empty tomb, the dove (which symbolizes the Holy Spirit) and other symbols are important to Christians too.

The Christian Cross reminds many Christians that God loves us so much, that Jesus became the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world, and died for us. God is way above human suffering, but Christians believe that God took on human suffering through Jesus, and that because of what Jesus did once for all on the cross, both Jews and Gentiles have a new covenant with God, through Jesus. Now, this does not mean that Jesus abolished the Old Covenant no! Jesus fulfilled /fulfills/will fulfill the Law and the Prophets, all the Scriptures concerning him. The cross is just one symbol of what Jesus did in accordance to God's plan.

If you have any polite questions or comments, I'd be interested in hearing them. I understand that most people here do not believe (after all, this is a Muslim forum) and that is fine. I am merely explaining what I and many other Christians believe concerning Jesus and what he did once for all on the cross.

Peace and God bless you

your post makes me confused about many things , may i ask questions to understand ? i am really not up a debate , i just want to know

1- i am confused about your definition of Israel, because i thought Israel is a name of a prophet whom jews decended from , and we call jews children of Israel

2-do you have any other resources that tell another reason as to why Jews didnt believe in Jesus ? and why they tried to kill him?

3-can you say more about the lamb of God?

[Christianlady]

Rasul, on 23 May 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

Does God have Nationality?

Hello Rasul,

Nope. God does not have human characteristics. He is not limited to time and space.

Jesus says that God is Spirit (John 4:24) God is the Creator of the earth. The earth contains many people groups and nations, but God is the Creator and over them all.

Now, God does have a special relationship with the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Through Moses, God gave the chidlren of Israel (Jacob) specific laws to follow, as well as prophesies, warnings, and promises through many prophets. Christians, both Jewish and Gentile Christians, believe that Jesus, who is a child of Israel like Moses and the prophets after Moses, fulfilled/fulfills/and will fulfill prophesies and promises God gave to the children of Israel.

Jesus talked to a Samaritan woman about how salvation is from the Jews.

John 4 - http://www.biblegate...04&version=TNIV
(I boldened some.)

"¹⁹ “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet.  ²⁰ Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
²¹ “Woman,”^[The Greek for Woman does not denote any disrespect.^] Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.  ²² You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. ²³ Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. ²⁴ God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
²⁵ The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
²⁶ Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”"

After Jesus ascended into Heaven, his apostles who he chose who walked and talked with him did not understand that Gentiles could "officially" follow Jesus too, until God gave Peter a vision (Acts 10). After that, the first "official" Gentile believers in Jesus are accounted in Acts 15. That's when the apostles (who are all Jewish) and other believers in Jesus undestood that Jesus fulfills the prophesies concerning the Gentiles too!

As a Gentile, I am not jealous of the Jewish people. Rather, they are brothers and sisters in humanity. Those who believe that Jesus is the Messiah are my brothers and sisters in Jesus, as well as the other Gentiles who believe in Jesus!!!

Peace and God bless you

Jihadi, on 23 May 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

salaam

its nice to see a christian here like you  here with the true followers of Muhammad and his Ahlul Bayt

Hello Jihadi,

Thank you It is nice to be a guest here and I appreciate the tolerance, hospitality, and courtesy of the Muslim members.

Quote

ok to my little of knowledge that i have i can tell you with no disrespect to you and your religion but the cross stands for cursed it is said that being cruxified in a cross  ment you were cursed but all this i got from  from other people sources and history, look it up yourself you will find it , here is a good link i found in that  http://www.watchtowe...appendix_05.htm




THE cross is loved and respected by millions of people. The Encyclopædia Britannica calls the cross “the principal symbol of the Christian religion.” Nevertheless, true Christians do not use the cross in worship. Why not?
An important reason is that Jesus Christ did not die on a cross. The Greek word generally translated “cross” is stau·ros′. It basically means “an upright pale or stake.” The Companion Bible points out: “[Stau·ros′] never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle . . . There is nothing in the Greek of the [New Testament] even to imply two pieces of timber.”
In several texts, Bible writers use another word for the instrument of Jesus’ death. It is the Greek word xy′lon. (Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Galatians 3:13; 1 Peter 2:24) This word simply means “timber” or “a stick, club, or tree.”
Explaining why a simple stake was often used for executions, the bookDas Kreuz und die Kreuzigung (The Cross and the Crucifixion), by Hermann Fulda, states: “Trees were not everywhere available at the places chosen for public execution. So a simple beam was sunk into the ground. On this the outlaws, with hands raised upward and often also with their feet, were bound or nailed.”
The most convincing proof of all, however, comes from God’s Word. The apostle Paul says: “Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: ‘Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake [“a tree,” King James Version].’” (Galatians 3:13) Here Paul quotes Deuteronomy 21:22, 23, which clearly refers to a stake, not a cross. Since such a means of execution made the person “a curse,” it would not be proper for Christians to decorate their homes with images of Christ impaled.
There is no evidence that for the first 300 years after Christ’s death, those claiming to be Christians used the cross in worship. In the fourth century, however, pagan Emperor Constantine became a convert to apostate Christianity and promoted the cross as its symbol. Whatever Constantine’s motives, the cross had nothing to do with Jesus Christ. The cross is, in fact, pagan in origin. The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The cross is found in both pre-Christian and non-Christian cultures.” Various other authorities have linked the cross with nature worship and pagan sex rites.
Why, then, was this pagan symbol promoted? Apparently, to make it easier for pagans to accept “Christianity.” Nevertheless, devotion to any pagan symbol is clearly condemned by the Bible. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) The Scriptures also forbid all forms of idolatry. (Exodus 20:4, 5;1 Corinthians 10:14) With very good reason, therefore, true Christians do not use the cross in worship.*

I believe that the article you quoted is not true in its claim concerning Jesus. I believe Jesus did indeed die on the cross, which was made from a tree.

There is a saying in the Tanakh that talks about a curse for anyone hung on a tree.

Deuteronomy 21:22-23 - http://www.mechon-ma...p/pt/pt0521.htm
(I boldened some.)   כב  וְכִי-יִהְיֶה בְאִישׁ, חֵטְא מִשְׁפַּט-מָוֶת--וְהוּמָת:  וְתָלִיתָ אֹתוֹ, עַל-עֵץ. 22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree;   כג  לֹא-תָלִין נִבְלָתוֹ עַל-הָעֵץ, כִּי-קָבוֹר תִּקְבְּרֶנּוּ בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא--כִּי-קִלְלַת אֱלֹהִים, תָּלוּי; וְלֹא תְטַמֵּא, אֶת-אַדְמָתְךָ, אֲשֶׁר יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, נֹתֵן לְךָ נַחֲלָה.  {ס} 23 his body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt surely bury him the same day; for he that is hanged is a reproach unto God; that thou defile not thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. {S}

Jesus did indeed die on material from a tree (whether you woud like to call the items made from the tree for this purpose a cross or wooden planks or stakes)

Jesus fulfilled the prophecy God gave, accounted in Psalm 22, concerning crying out to God. The reason why Jesus felt that God had forsaken him was because of the curse. Jesus fulfilled Deuteronomy 21:22-23, Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, and other prophesies through his suffering, death, and resurrection.

Psalm 22 - http://www.mechon-ma...p/pt/pt2622.htm
(I boldened some.)


  א  לַמְנַצֵּחַ, עַל-אַיֶּלֶת הַשַּׁחַר; מִזְמוֹר לְדָוִד. 1 For the Leader; upon Aijeleth ha-Shahar. A Psalm of David.   ב  אֵלִי אֵלִי, לָמָה עֲזַבְתָּנִי; רָחוֹק מִישׁוּעָתִי, דִּבְרֵי שַׁאֲגָתִי. 2 My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me, and art far from my help at the words of my cry?      ג  אֱלֹהַי--אֶקְרָא יוֹמָם, וְלֹא תַעֲנֶה; וְלַיְלָה, וְלֹא-דֻמִיָּה לִי. 3 O my God, I call by day, but Thou answerest not; and at night, and there is no surcease for me.   ד  וְאַתָּה קָדוֹשׁ-- יוֹשֵׁב, תְּהִלּוֹת יִשְׂרָאֵל. 4 Yet Thou art holy, O Thou that art enthroned upon the praises of Israel.   ה  בְּךָ, בָּטְחוּ אֲבֹתֵינוּ; בָּטְחוּ, וַתְּפַלְּטֵמוֹ. 5 In Thee did our fathers trust; they trusted, and Thou didst deliver them.   ו  אֵלֶיךָ זָעֲקוּ וְנִמְלָטוּ; בְּךָ בָטְחוּ וְלֹא-בוֹשׁוּ. 6 Unto Thee they cried, and escaped; in Thee did they trust, and were not ashamed.   ז  וְאָנֹכִי תוֹלַעַת וְלֹא-אִישׁ; חֶרְפַּת אָדָם, וּבְזוּי עָם. 7 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.    ח  כָּל-רֹאַי, יַלְעִגוּ לִי; יַפְטִירוּ בְשָׂפָה, יָנִיעוּ רֹאשׁ. 8 All they that see me laugh me to scorn; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head:    ט  גֹּל אֶל-יְהוָה יְפַלְּטֵהוּ; יַצִּילֵהוּ, כִּי חָפֵץ בּוֹ. 9 'Let him commit himself unto the LORD! let Him rescue him; let Him deliver him, seeing He delighteth in him.'    י  כִּי-אַתָּה גֹחִי מִבָּטֶן; מַבְטִיחִי, עַל-שְׁדֵי אִמִּי. 10 For Thou art He that took me out of the womb; Thou madest me trust when I was upon my mother's breasts.   יא  עָלֶיךָ, הָשְׁלַכְתִּי מֵרָחֶם; מִבֶּטֶן אִמִּי, אֵלִי אָתָּה. 11 Upon Thee I have been cast from my birth; Thou art my God from my mother's womb. יב  אַל-תִּרְחַק מִמֶּנִּי, כִּי-צָרָה קְרוֹבָה: כִּי-אֵין עוֹזֵר. 12 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.   יג  סְבָבוּנִי, פָּרִים רַבִּים; אַבִּירֵי בָשָׁן כִּתְּרוּנִי. 13 Many bulls have encompassed me; strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.   יד  פָּצוּ עָלַי פִּיהֶם; אַרְיֵה, טֹרֵף וְשֹׁאֵג. 14 They open wide their mouth against me, as a ravening and a roaring lion.   טו  כַּמַּיִם נִשְׁפַּכְתִּי-- וְהִתְפָּרְדוּ, כָּל-עַצְמוֹתָי:
הָיָה לִבִּי, כַּדּוֹנָג; נָמֵס, בְּתוֹךְ מֵעָי. 15 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; {N}
my heart is become like wax; it is melted in mine inmost parts.   טז  יָבֵשׁ כַּחֶרֶשׂ, כֹּחִי, וּלְשׁוֹנִי, מֻדְבָּק מַלְקוֹחָי; וְלַעֲפַר-מָוֶת תִּשְׁפְּתֵנִי. 16 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my throat; and Thou layest me in the dust of death.   יז  כִּי סְבָבוּנִי, כְּלָבִים: עֲדַת מְרֵעִים, הִקִּיפוּנִי; כָּאֲרִי, יָדַי וְרַגְלָי. 17 For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet. יח  אֲסַפֵּר כָּל-עַצְמוֹתָי; הֵמָּה יַבִּיטוּ, יִרְאוּ-בִי. 18 I may count all my bones; they look and gloat over me.    יט  יְחַלְּקוּ בְגָדַי לָהֶם; וְעַל-לְבוּשִׁי, יַפִּילוּ גוֹרָל. 19 They part my garments among them, and for my vesture do they cast lots.   כ  וְאַתָּה יְהוָה, אַל-תִּרְחָק; אֱיָלוּתִי, לְעֶזְרָתִי חוּשָׁה. 20 But Thou, O LORD, be not far off; O Thou my strength, hasten to help me.    כא  הַצִּילָה מֵחֶרֶב נַפְשִׁי; מִיַּד-כֶּלֶב, יְחִידָתִי. 21 Deliver my soul from the sword; mine only one from the power of the dog.   כב  הוֹשִׁיעֵנִי, מִפִּי אַרְיֵה; וּמִקַּרְנֵי רֵמִים עֲנִיתָנִי. 22 Save me from the lion's mouth; yea, from the horns of the wild-oxen do Thou answer me.   כג  אֲסַפְּרָה שִׁמְךָ לְאֶחָי; בְּתוֹךְ קָהָל אֲהַלְלֶךָּ. 23 I will declare Thy name unto my brethren; in the midst of the congregation will I praise Thee.      כד  יִרְאֵי יְהוָה, הַלְלוּהוּ-- כָּל-זֶרַע יַעֲקֹב כַּבְּדוּהוּ;
וְגוּרוּ מִמֶּנּוּ, כָּל-זֶרַע יִשְׂרָאֵל. 24 'Ye that fear the LORD, praise Him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify Him; {N}
and stand in awe of Him, all ye the seed of Israel.      כה  כִּי לֹא-בָזָה וְלֹא שִׁקַּץ, עֱנוּת עָנִי-- וְלֹא-הִסְתִּיר פָּנָיו מִמֶּנּוּ;
וּבְשַׁוְּעוֹ אֵלָיו שָׁמֵעַ. 25 For He hath not despised nor abhorred the lowliness of the poor; neither hath He hid His face from him; {N}
but when he cried unto Him, He heard.' כו  מֵאִתְּךָ, תְּהִלָּתִי: בְּקָהָל רָב--נְדָרַי אֲשַׁלֵּם, נֶגֶד יְרֵאָיו. 26 From Thee cometh my praise in the great congregation; I will pay my vows before them that fear Him.      כז  יֹאכְלוּ עֲנָוִים, וְיִשְׂבָּעוּ-- יְהַלְלוּ יְהוָה, דֹּרְשָׁיו;
יְחִי לְבַבְכֶם לָעַד. 27 Let the humble eat and be satisfied; let them praise the LORD that seek after Him; {N}
may your heart be quickened for ever!   כח  יִזְכְּרוּ, וְיָשֻׁבוּ אֶל-יְהוָה-- כָּל-אַפְסֵי-אָרֶץ;
וְיִשְׁתַּחֲווּ לְפָנֶיךָ, כָּל-מִשְׁפְּחוֹת גּוֹיִם. 28 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto the LORD; {N}
and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before Thee. כט  כִּי לַיהוָה, הַמְּלוּכָה; וּמֹשֵׁל, בַּגּוֹיִם. 29 For the kingdom is the LORD'S; and He is the ruler over the nations.   ל  אָכְלוּ וַיִּשְׁתַּחֲווּ, כָּל-דִּשְׁנֵי-אֶרֶץ-- לְפָנָיו יִכְרְעוּ, כָּל-יוֹרְדֵי עָפָר;
וְנַפְשׁוֹ, לֹא חִיָּה. 30 All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and worship; all they that go down to the dust shall kneel before Him, {N}
even he that cannot keep his soul alive.   לא  זֶרַע יַעַבְדֶנּוּ; יְסֻפַּר לַאדֹנָי לַדּוֹר. 31 A seed shall serve him; it shall be told of the Lord unto the next generation.   לב  יָבֹאוּ, וְיַגִּידוּ צִדְקָתוֹ: לְעַם נוֹלָד, כִּי עָשָׂה. 32 They shall come and shall declare His righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that He hath done it. {P}


The suffering and death of the Messiah was prophesied about a long time ago. Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 are the main prophesies that Jesus' suffering, death, and resurrection fulfills.

Interestingly, in the promise God gave to King David concerning the king who would be from David's offspring forever, the reference to this son being flogged for sins is a part of 2 Samuel 7. Now, it is possible that King Solomon was flogged, but most Christians who study believe that this is an additional prophesy to the suffering of the Messiah before he was killed (the prophesies of the death and resurrection being accounted in Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53.)

2 Samuel 7 - http://www.mechon-ma.../pt/pt08b07.htm
(I boldened some.)   יב  כִּי יִמְלְאוּ יָמֶיךָ, וְשָׁכַבְתָּ אֶת-אֲבֹתֶיךָ, וַהֲקִימֹתִי אֶת-זַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ, אֲשֶׁר יֵצֵא מִמֵּעֶיךָ; וַהֲכִינֹתִי, אֶת-מַמְלַכְתּוֹ. 12 When thy days are fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, that shall proceed out of thy body, and I will establish his kingdom.   יג  הוּא יִבְנֶה-בַּיִת, לִשְׁמִי; וְכֹנַנְתִּי אֶת-כִּסֵּא מַמְלַכְתּוֹ, עַד-עוֹלָם. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.   יד  אֲנִי אֶהְיֶה-לּוֹ לְאָב, וְהוּא יִהְיֶה-לִּי לְבֵן--אֲשֶׁר, בְּהַעֲו‍ֹתוֹ, וְהֹכַחְתִּיו בְּשֵׁבֶט אֲנָשִׁים, וּבְנִגְעֵי בְּנֵי אָדָם. 14 I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son; if he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men;   טו  וְחַסְדִּי, לֹא-יָסוּר מִמֶּנּוּ, כַּאֲשֶׁר הֲסִרֹתִי מֵעִם שָׁאוּל, אֲשֶׁר הֲסִרֹתִי מִלְּפָנֶיךָ. 15 but My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.   טז  וְנֶאְמַן בֵּיתְךָ וּמַמְלַכְתְּךָ עַד-עוֹלָם, לְפָנֶיךָ:  כִּסְאֲךָ, יִהְיֶה נָכוֹן עַד-עוֹלָם. 16 And thy house and thy kingdom shall be made sure for ever before thee; thy throne shall be established for ever.' יז  כְּכֹל הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה, וּכְכֹל הַחִזָּיוֹן הַזֶּה--כֵּן דִּבֶּר נָתָן, אֶל-דָּוִד.  {פ} 17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David. {P}

So, one reason why I don't believe the article you quoted is because the prophesies and promises God gave to the children of Israel, accounted in the Tanakh, are fulfilled by Jesus' suffering, death, and resurrection.

Another reason why I don't believe the article you quoted is because the apostles of Jesus testified to the fact that Jesus did indeed die on a cross and that God rose him from the dead.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady, 24 May 2012 - 02:26 PM.

[Jihadi]

Christianlady, on 24 May 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

Hello Rasul,

Nope. God does not have human characteristics. He is not limited to time and space.

Jesus says that God is Spirit (John 4:24) God is the Creator of the earth. The earth contains many people groups and nations, but God is the Creator and over them all.

Now, God does have a special relationship with the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Through Moses, God gave the chidlren of Israel (Jacob) specific laws to follow, as well as prophesies, warnings, and promises through many prophets. Christians, both Jewish and Gentile Christians, believe that Jesus, who is a child of Israel like Moses and the prophets after Moses, fulfilled/fulfills/and will fulfill prophesies and promises God gave to the children of Israel.

Jesus talked to a Samaritan woman about how salvation is from the Jews.

John 4 - http://www.biblegate...04&version=TNIV
(I boldened some.)

"¹⁹ “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet.  ²⁰ Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
²¹ “Woman,”^[The Greek for Woman does not denote any disrespect.^] Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.  ²² You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. ²³ Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. ²⁴ God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
²⁵ The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
²⁶ Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”"

After Jesus ascended into Heaven, his apostles who he chose who walked and talked with him did not understand that Gentiles could "officially" follow Jesus too, until God gave Peter a vision (Acts 10). After that, the first "official" Gentile believers in Jesus are accounted in Acts 15. That's when the apostles (who are all Jewish) and other believers in Jesus undestood that Jesus fulfills the prophesies concerning the Gentiles too!

As a Gentile, I am not jealous of the Jewish people. Rather, they are brothers and sisters in humanity. Those who believe that Jesus is the Messiah are my brothers and sisters in Jesus, as well as the other Gentiles who believe in Jesus!!!

Peace and God bless you



Hello Jihadi,

Thank you It is nice to be a guest here and I appreciate the tolerance, hospitality, and courtesy of the Muslim members.
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I believe that the article you quoted is not true in its claim concerning Jesus. I believe Jesus did indeed die on the cross, which was made from a tree.

There is a saying in the Tanakh that talks about a curse for anyone hung on a tree.

Deuteronomy 21:22-23 - http://www.mechon-ma...p/pt/pt0521.htm
(I boldened some.)   כב  וְכִי-יִהְיֶה בְאִישׁ, חֵטְא מִשְׁפַּט-מָוֶת--וְהוּמָת:  וְתָלִיתָ אֹתוֹ, עַל-עֵץ. 22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree;   כג  לֹא-תָלִין נִבְלָתוֹ עַל-הָעֵץ, כִּי-קָבוֹר תִּקְבְּרֶנּוּ בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא--כִּי-קִלְלַת אֱלֹהִים, תָּלוּי; וְלֹא תְטַמֵּא, אֶת-אַדְמָתְךָ, אֲשֶׁר יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, נֹתֵן לְךָ נַחֲלָה.  {ס} 23 his body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt surely bury him the same day; for he that is hanged is a reproach unto God; that thou defile not thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. {S}

Jesus did indeed die on material from a tree (whether you woud like to call the items made from the tree for this purpose a cross or wooden planks or stakes)

Jesus fulfilled the prophecy God gave, accounted in Psalm 22, concerning crying out to God. The reason why Jesus felt that God had forsaken him was because of the curse. Jesus fulfilled Deuteronomy 21:22-23, Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, and other prophesies through his suffering, death, and resurrection.

Psalm 22 - http://www.mechon-ma...p/pt/pt2622.htm
(I boldened some.)


  א  לַמְנַצֵּחַ, עַל-אַיֶּלֶת הַשַּׁחַר; מִזְמוֹר לְדָוִד. 1 For the Leader; upon Aijeleth ha-Shahar. A Psalm of David.   ב  אֵלִי אֵלִי, לָמָה עֲזַבְתָּנִי; רָחוֹק מִישׁוּעָתִי, דִּבְרֵי שַׁאֲגָתִי. 2 My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me, and art far from my help at the words of my cry?      ג  אֱלֹהַי--אֶקְרָא יוֹמָם, וְלֹא תַעֲנֶה; וְלַיְלָה, וְלֹא-דֻמִיָּה לִי. 3 O my God, I call by day, but Thou answerest not; and at night, and there is no surcease for me.   ד  וְאַתָּה קָדוֹשׁ-- יוֹשֵׁב, תְּהִלּוֹת יִשְׂרָאֵל. 4 Yet Thou art holy, O Thou that art enthroned upon the praises of Israel.   ה  בְּךָ, בָּטְחוּ אֲבֹתֵינוּ; בָּטְחוּ, וַתְּפַלְּטֵמוֹ. 5 In Thee did our fathers trust; they trusted, and Thou didst deliver them.   ו  אֵלֶיךָ זָעֲקוּ וְנִמְלָטוּ; בְּךָ בָטְחוּ וְלֹא-בוֹשׁוּ. 6 Unto Thee they cried, and escaped; in Thee did they trust, and were not ashamed.   ז  וְאָנֹכִי תוֹלַעַת וְלֹא-אִישׁ; חֶרְפַּת אָדָם, וּבְזוּי עָם. 7 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.    ח  כָּל-רֹאַי, יַלְעִגוּ לִי; יַפְטִירוּ בְשָׂפָה, יָנִיעוּ רֹאשׁ. 8 All they that see me laugh me to scorn; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head:    ט  גֹּל אֶל-יְהוָה יְפַלְּטֵהוּ; יַצִּילֵהוּ, כִּי חָפֵץ בּוֹ. 9 'Let him commit himself unto the LORD! let Him rescue him; let Him deliver him, seeing He delighteth in him.'    י  כִּי-אַתָּה גֹחִי מִבָּטֶן; מַבְטִיחִי, עַל-שְׁדֵי אִמִּי. 10 For Thou art He that took me out of the womb; Thou madest me trust when I was upon my mother's breasts.   יא  עָלֶיךָ, הָשְׁלַכְתִּי מֵרָחֶם; מִבֶּטֶן אִמִּי, אֵלִי אָתָּה. 11 Upon Thee I have been cast from my birth; Thou art my God from my mother's womb. יב  אַל-תִּרְחַק מִמֶּנִּי, כִּי-צָרָה קְרוֹבָה: כִּי-אֵין עוֹזֵר. 12 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.   יג  סְבָבוּנִי, פָּרִים רַבִּים; אַבִּירֵי בָשָׁן כִּתְּרוּנִי. 13 Many bulls have encompassed me; strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.   יד  פָּצוּ עָלַי פִּיהֶם; אַרְיֵה, טֹרֵף וְשֹׁאֵג. 14 They open wide their mouth against me, as a ravening and a roaring lion.   טו  כַּמַּיִם נִשְׁפַּכְתִּי-- וְהִתְפָּרְדוּ, כָּל-עַצְמוֹתָי:
הָיָה לִבִּי, כַּדּוֹנָג; נָמֵס, בְּתוֹךְ מֵעָי. 15 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; {N}
my heart is become like wax; it is melted in mine inmost parts.   טז  יָבֵשׁ כַּחֶרֶשׂ, כֹּחִי, וּלְשׁוֹנִי, מֻדְבָּק מַלְקוֹחָי; וְלַעֲפַר-מָוֶת תִּשְׁפְּתֵנִי. 16 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my throat; and Thou layest me in the dust of death.   יז  כִּי סְבָבוּנִי, כְּלָבִים: עֲדַת מְרֵעִים, הִקִּיפוּנִי; כָּאֲרִי, יָדַי וְרַגְלָי. 17 For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet. יח  אֲסַפֵּר כָּל-עַצְמוֹתָי; הֵמָּה יַבִּיטוּ, יִרְאוּ-בִי. 18 I may count all my bones; they look and gloat over me.    יט  יְחַלְּקוּ בְגָדַי לָהֶם; וְעַל-לְבוּשִׁי, יַפִּילוּ גוֹרָל. 19 They part my garments among them, and for my vesture do they cast lots.   כ  וְאַתָּה יְהוָה, אַל-תִּרְחָק; אֱיָלוּתִי, לְעֶזְרָתִי חוּשָׁה. 20 But Thou, O LORD, be not far off; O Thou my strength, hasten to help me.    כא  הַצִּילָה מֵחֶרֶב נַפְשִׁי; מִיַּד-כֶּלֶב, יְחִידָתִי. 21 Deliver my soul from the sword; mine only one from the power of the dog.   כב  הוֹשִׁיעֵנִי, מִפִּי אַרְיֵה; וּמִקַּרְנֵי רֵמִים עֲנִיתָנִי. 22 Save me from the lion's mouth; yea, from the horns of the wild-oxen do Thou answer me.   כג  אֲסַפְּרָה שִׁמְךָ לְאֶחָי; בְּתוֹךְ קָהָל אֲהַלְלֶךָּ. 23 I will declare Thy name unto my brethren; in the midst of the congregation will I praise Thee.      כד  יִרְאֵי יְהוָה, הַלְלוּהוּ-- כָּל-זֶרַע יַעֲקֹב כַּבְּדוּהוּ;
וְגוּרוּ מִמֶּנּוּ, כָּל-זֶרַע יִשְׂרָאֵל. 24 'Ye that fear the LORD, praise Him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify Him; {N}
and stand in awe of Him, all ye the seed of Israel.      כה  כִּי לֹא-בָזָה וְלֹא שִׁקַּץ, עֱנוּת עָנִי-- וְלֹא-הִסְתִּיר פָּנָיו מִמֶּנּוּ;
וּבְשַׁוְּעוֹ אֵלָיו שָׁמֵעַ. 25 For He hath not despised nor abhorred the lowliness of the poor; neither hath He hid His face from him; {N}
but when he cried unto Him, He heard.' כו  מֵאִתְּךָ, תְּהִלָּתִי: בְּקָהָל רָב--נְדָרַי אֲשַׁלֵּם, נֶגֶד יְרֵאָיו. 26 From Thee cometh my praise in the great congregation; I will pay my vows before them that fear Him.      כז  יֹאכְלוּ עֲנָוִים, וְיִשְׂבָּעוּ-- יְהַלְלוּ יְהוָה, דֹּרְשָׁיו;
יְחִי לְבַבְכֶם לָעַד. 27 Let the humble eat and be satisfied; let them praise the LORD that seek after Him; {N}
may your heart be quickened for ever!   כח  יִזְכְּרוּ, וְיָשֻׁבוּ אֶל-יְהוָה-- כָּל-אַפְסֵי-אָרֶץ;
וְיִשְׁתַּחֲווּ לְפָנֶיךָ, כָּל-מִשְׁפְּחוֹת גּוֹיִם. 28 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto the LORD; {N}
and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before Thee. כט  כִּי לַיהוָה, הַמְּלוּכָה; וּמֹשֵׁל, בַּגּוֹיִם. 29 For the kingdom is the LORD'S; and He is the ruler over the nations.   ל  אָכְלוּ וַיִּשְׁתַּחֲווּ, כָּל-דִּשְׁנֵי-אֶרֶץ-- לְפָנָיו יִכְרְעוּ, כָּל-יוֹרְדֵי עָפָר;
וְנַפְשׁוֹ, לֹא חִיָּה. 30 All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and worship; all they that go down to the dust shall kneel before Him, {N}
even he that cannot keep his soul alive.   לא  זֶרַע יַעַבְדֶנּוּ; יְסֻפַּר לַאדֹנָי לַדּוֹר. 31 A seed shall serve him; it shall be told of the Lord unto the next generation.   לב  יָבֹאוּ, וְיַגִּידוּ צִדְקָתוֹ: לְעַם נוֹלָד, כִּי עָשָׂה. 32 They shall come and shall declare His righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that He hath done it. {P}


The suffering and death of the Messiah was prophesied about a long time ago. Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 are the main prophesies that Jesus' suffering, death, and resurrection fulfills.

Interestingly, in the promise God gave to King David concerning the king who would be from David's offspring forever, the reference to this son being flogged for sins is a part of 2 Samuel 7. Now, it is possible that King Solomon was flogged, but most Christians who study believe that this is an additional prophesy to the suffering of the Messiah before he was killed (the prophesies of the death and resurrection being accounted in Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53.)

2 Samuel 7 - http://www.mechon-ma.../pt/pt08b07.htm
(I boldened some.)   יב  כִּי יִמְלְאוּ יָמֶיךָ, וְשָׁכַבְתָּ אֶת-אֲבֹתֶיךָ, וַהֲקִימֹתִי אֶת-זַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ, אֲשֶׁר יֵצֵא מִמֵּעֶיךָ; וַהֲכִינֹתִי, אֶת-מַמְלַכְתּוֹ. 12 When thy days are fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, that shall proceed out of thy body, and I will establish his kingdom.   יג  הוּא יִבְנֶה-בַּיִת, לִשְׁמִי; וְכֹנַנְתִּי אֶת-כִּסֵּא מַמְלַכְתּוֹ, עַד-עוֹלָם. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.   יד  אֲנִי אֶהְיֶה-לּוֹ לְאָב, וְהוּא יִהְיֶה-לִּי לְבֵן--אֲשֶׁר, בְּהַעֲו‍ֹתוֹ, וְהֹכַחְתִּיו בְּשֵׁבֶט אֲנָשִׁים, וּבְנִגְעֵי בְּנֵי אָדָם. 14 I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son; if he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men;   טו  וְחַסְדִּי, לֹא-יָסוּר מִמֶּנּוּ, כַּאֲשֶׁר הֲסִרֹתִי מֵעִם שָׁאוּל, אֲשֶׁר הֲסִרֹתִי מִלְּפָנֶיךָ. 15 but My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.   טז  וְנֶאְמַן בֵּיתְךָ וּמַמְלַכְתְּךָ עַד-עוֹלָם, לְפָנֶיךָ:  כִּסְאֲךָ, יִהְיֶה נָכוֹן עַד-עוֹלָם. 16 And thy house and thy kingdom shall be made sure for ever before thee; thy throne shall be established for ever.' יז  כְּכֹל הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה, וּכְכֹל הַחִזָּיוֹן הַזֶּה--כֵּן דִּבֶּר נָתָן, אֶל-דָּוִד.  {פ} 17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David. {P}

So, one reason why I don't believe the article you quoted is because the prophesies and promises God gave to the children of Israel, accounted in the Tanakh, are fulfilled by Jesus' suffering, death, and resurrection.

Another reason why I don't believe the article you quoted is because the apostles of Jesus testified to the fact that Jesus did indeed die on a cross and that God rose him from the dead.

Peace and God bless you

sister have you seen how many signs and miracles there is in the Quran ? , Have you heard about that the name of Muhammad (pbuhahf) is in the torah ? , have to seen the animals and babys say the name of the one true god ?   i hope with all my heart our creator forgives you and shows you the true path even jesus followed  inshAllah  ...........here is the link to these videos wich will leave no doubt        http://youtu.be/_qjp..._qjptnOItT4

Edited by Jihadi, 27 May 2012 - 12:21 AM.

[soloman]

samarobin0, on 23 May 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Actually, no they view it as a reminder of the sacrifice.

This is ludicrous , it only reafirm the irrationality in Christian belief.

It is like a Jew holding and praying to a Nazi symbol and saying it reminds us of our suffering.

Soloman

[samarobin0]

soloman, on 27 May 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

This is ludicrous , it only reafirm the irrationality in Christian belief.

It is like a Jew holding and praying to a Nazi symbol and saying it reminds us of our suffering.

Soloman

But you have to look at it from their view.. they truly believe Jesus did die on the cross & it is their way of showing acceptance. Acceptance is a hard thing to conquer, and it is somewhat of a "pillar" as u can say for Catholics. That is what separates Catholics from other Christian sects.